DM,

I have a few questions.

Are you paying for her place and her phone?

Have you separated your finances?

Are you funding her infidelity?


Listen, I was just like you. I was a doormatt and allowed my WW to disrespect me in ways that I look back on now and feel terrible shame over it.

You will look back in the same way. I understand she's been in your life 15 years, but there is a limit to being a doormat. I was there. I did it just like you.

Before you go to a plan B, you need to try something different. It's a plan A, but one where you show respect for yourself.

She freaked out when she thought you were dating. Well, give her the idea that you're carrying on with your life. She wants the rights and priveledges of a wife, yet isn't acting like one.

You don't need to be a [censored]. Simply indifferent. You need to search for the 180 and start living it.

Don't text, IM, or write her emails. Let her do all the contacting. When she asks why you haven't called her, don't give specifics. Tell her you've been busy.

SHE will respond when she gets the impression and really starts to think she's losing you. How can this happen? Well, it's all in your words.

You've spent the last few months begging, pleading, being a doormat. So now it's time to grow a pair and quit being one.

I was there. I did the same exact things. I use to stay home and watch the kids while she went out clubbing to go flirt with guys. I paid for her cell phone which she used to contact different guys she met online. I paid for the car, the gas, her dates.

I begged and pleaded.

Listen. You're young. You have no kids with this woman. Yes, you love her and she's all you know, but there is a better greener world out there. You can meet women who are mature and will be there for you.

You need to do the 180. It's easy. Stop sending her texts, emails, and IMs. Quit asking her out.

Why? It shows that you're her puppy begging for scraps. It lets her know that you're there no matter what and that she can go out and experiment and be with other men but that you're there as her safety net.

You have no kids. You really need a plan FU. This is for yourself and for you to have some self respect.

So you don't want to jump to plan FU just yet. Very well. Try what I recommend first. No contact with her. If she calls, answer and be friendly, but be dark about what is going on with your life. Make her believe you're carrying on with your life and moving forward. Take steps to eliminate any excuse she may have to come to your house. Do what you said you'd do about storage. Don't even tell her about it.

You have no kids. You have no family to protect.

Right now you feel despair and feel like you want her back very badly. You're in a stage where you're ok to be a doormat. Well, guess what? You will never be appealing to her in this stage.

You must do what is counter intuitive. Reverse psychology works on WWs. It isn't about being a [censored]. It's about self respect.

She will respond to a plan B. And if she doesn't, it will help you heal.

Quit being a doormat and grow a pair. That's not an insult. I was there. I did what you're doing and it didn't work. I look back in shame now two years later at how I allowed myself to be used. Don't do it and stop this because it will not get you results.

Women don't respect men who are doormats.

Thanks for your replies.

I completely agree with you. This isn't working. I've been saying for awhile that it's causing more harm than good. I've gotten myself in the habit of being a doormat and it's put me in a really bad position. I've allowed her to step all over me and run wild with no boundaries.

I've been trying to find a way out of this, but I'm not ready to let go of her yet. You're supposed to have a good plan A before plan B and go into it feeling ready, but she's made that impossible for me. Plan B is a huge leap from where I'm standing right now, but I need to do something before I lose her to some undeserving pos.

I've read about the 180 somewhere. It didn't seem to fit my plan eventhough my plan has been crap. I didn't think about it in a plan A sense, but I see your point. I should've been doing that all along and maybe I could've saved some dignity. I've spent the last 4 months looking clingy and needy. If I can do this before going to plan B and leave her with the memory of someone more respectable, I'm all for it.

So, how do I work this? She has two business trips coming up and she'll be gone for most of the month. This is another reason holding me back from plan B right now. She'll be gone and I doubt she'll even notice it. She left this morning and will be back in 10 days, then she'll be home for a week and will leave again. She's supposed to come over for dinner sometime in between. I'll probably have to ask if she's still coming or should I not contact her at all anymore?

As far as finances, we're pretty separated now. She lives at her F's house, but she's been spending a lot of nights at that POS's. I'm not paying for her phone or anything like that. She pays for my health insurance through her work and I pay for our auto insurance and storage unit and a few other misc things. Nothing that helps with her infidelity.

I just received a copy of Love Must be Tough by Dr. James Dobson. I haven't read it yet, but I will start tonight. Does anyone have opinions on it? I've heard it mentioned a few times in here. Or am I just kidding myself with all this stuff?

She will respond to you when you quick giving her the idea that you're around for her to take advantage of. The illusion of you moving on is as imporatant and the fact of you actually doing it.

I know a woman who faked dating and going on dates just to make her crazy WH jealous.

She had male friends call her and she pretended she couldn't talk at the moment.

She dressed like she was going out somewhere when she saw the WH just to arouse curiosity.

She even went so far as to have suitcases in the trunk of her car as if she was heading out somewhere with someone.

When he asked her about it, she was vague.

She acted happy and like she was really looking forward to the evenings out and would then go to a coffee shop or home or a concert with friends.

There was never another man for her, but the illusion she created that she was happy to be free again and was actively trying to carry on with her life had the impact she wanted on the WH.

You don't need to lie.

She asks you about where you're off, just say you're going out. She asks with who, just say a friend.

The thing you need to do is STOP calling her. This doesn't mean you go dark. It means that you stop INITIATING the contact. Leave it in her court.

You'll be surprised by how effective this is. You show too much eagerness to talk to her.

Go quiet and she'll get curious.

You see, she doesn't feel threatened that she's losing you.

Make her think she is.

I'm not saying tell her you're dating. I'm saying LOOK like you're enjoying being apart and moving on if she sees you.

Otherwise, don't call her, IM her, or text her. Answer some of her calls, but let her go as if you just got a phone call from someone else you'd rather talk to.

Trust me. This works.

I suggest you read Love Must be Tough by James Dobson. Lots of good info in there if you haven't already read it.

Thanks for the advice.
I'm not going to contact her anymore, but I doubt she'll contact me either. I came to some realizations and as much as I want to turn things around, I think im just kidding myself.

I talked to her today. I IMed her as usual. I know that's been one of my biggest mistakes, but I wanted to confirm what I was feeling. It's not just a loss of respect. I've been sensing that she pities me now and thats the worst that can happen.

It's obvious she doesn't want to talk to me or see me. She only does so out of sympathy and that's the last thing I need. I'm done. She say's she still coming over after her trip, but I won't expect it if I don't call. I think it's time for plan B or maybe even FU as you mentioned.

I've been in bad shape these last few days and I hate myself for what I've done. This isn't me. I haven't been myself in 8 months. I can't blame her for not respecting me if I can't even respect myself.

I'd like to call her and finally tell her what i really feel. No more walking on eggshells and being thoughtful, etc.. She doesn't deserve any of that. I'm not talking about LBing her to death. I just want to be firm and let her know that I've done everything i could to save us. I put myself and my pride aside to understand and forgive her. There's no one else who would do that for her. If this is what she wants to do with our life together then so be it.

Is this something I should do?
I'd like to gain my dignity back and finally let her see what she's throwing away before I go dark.

What you describe sounds like plan B and what you describe doing is a plan B letter.

There's plenty of drafts here. You need to really be disciplined when you make that decision.

Plan B is for yourself. You're burned out. You're tired and you keep getting mixed signals from someone who cares nothing about hurting you.

You need to understand that she's gone. Accept the fact that she's gone and isn't coming back and let her be.

You move on to plan B and an eventual plan D.

My advice: you have no kids. Divorce and find someone with maturity and morals.

Believe me, kids make a big difference.

For you, this will end up being more like a break up in the long run, because you will move on and carry on with your life and she with hers.

If you had kids with her you'd be tied to her forever.

What I've seen with people who marry other people when they are really young is that one or the other seems to think that they've "missed out" on something because they married so young and they act like you WW. They want to go test the waters.

On the flipside, the betrayed knows no different and isn't sure they could do better, so they cling to the only thing they've known, which is the wayward. This person might truly be a bad person to be with, but you've known no different since you have been with this person since you were kids.

So it's time to believe a man who has been in your shoes (betrayed) and believe me when I tell you that there are many great women out there. You can meet them baggage free once you've moved on in your heart.

What I've learned is that I can love again. You will one day as well.

The only way she'll come back is if she truly thinks she's losing you and you're moving on.

Go to plan B first, but keep plan D in the back of your mind.

Think of this as well: what will you do when she comes back? She'll want to return and want you to forget her betrayal. You'll forgive at first, but there will be a time when you'll get past the happiness of the return and really start to think of the betrayal and experience anger and resentment for it. You'll never truly trust her again either and will forever be scarred.

So start over. Learn to be happy alone. Once you're happy alone (stable) meet a woman who is happy to be alone (stable). In other words, she has a life, you have a life, and you're happy to include each other in each other's lives. You don't NEED her. She doesn't NEED you. But you're happy to have each other.

This is going to take you a while.

So write a plan b letter and go dark. Take control again and don't answer her calls and eliminate her from IM.

Hello, my friend...

i just read your post to my thread, thanks.. You and I are at about the same stage, it seems, we have both had enough of the crap, and indifference our wives are throwning at us. All of the Plan A'ing and the like has taken it's toll, and I, for one, have had enough. It's not that I don't want my wife; the exact opposite is true.....I want her, but not the person she has become..

My brother went through the same thing, and was the one who sent me here. He told me that he, at about the 6 month mark...(you and me both), said to himself...."I don't care anymore" He became indiffernt to the idea of his wife coming back, and basically started to re-invent himself. He became quite happy with who he became....

The funny thing is, is that they got back together, and are now seemingly better than they ever were before.....except that he resents the fact that he has no time now to do all the new things he started to do when he was single.

The other funny thing is that all of the friends they hang out with, are people he met while he was separated from her!! They are over all the time, and get along really well with both of them!

I still hurt like ******

Ron

Hi guys...I am so sorry you are all hurting so much.

Pom and Ron, your posts were great and I am so glad you are helping DM! Stick together and help each other through this...it has to be so hard.

I can't really offer much else, just wanted you to know W2S and I are cheering you on. You all have so much to offer...I wish your WW could see what we see.

You are worth so much more than what your lives have become. Believe this and you will pull through the pain. Believe it with all of your heart and soul.

Big hugs to all...

(((((((((Pom DM Ron)))))))))))

Lala,
Thanks for the kind words and support. I'm feeling better today or maybe I'm just numb right now, but that's better than I've been lately.

I've been reading Love Must be Tough and it's opened my eyes and confirmed a lot of things that I've been feeling.

Pom,
Have you read this book? A lot of what you've been saying is inline with what the book says. I'm kicking myself because I think it would've been the better approach for me. I keep thinking if it were only sooner, even if it were just a few weeks ago.

I look back and see what you're saying. She responded to me when it seemed like I was pulling away, but whenever she took a step towards me, i smothered her and thats not what she wanted or needed. I missed a lot of opportunities to draw her back.

She lost alot of respect for me because i didn't show any respect for myself and that made her unable to love me.
Her love for me has been dying a slow death, but I hope somewhere deep inside of her there is still something left.

So AGAIN, I'm rethinking what i should do now. Should I go directly to plan B? I'm starting to lean back towards the advice you gave me previously. I keep going back and forth and changing my mind because I've never felt comfortable with anything I've been doing.

Plan A, or atleast my version of it has never felt right for my sitch. I think I still need to go to plan B pretty soon, but right now, I don't see any sense in telling her not to contact me when she's not even trying to. Should I change my ways first and try to give her a reason to WANT to contact me? I want to show her that i've regained my self respect and that i AM respectable, but will she see that if I just go dark right now? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Is there anything I can do to get out of this hole i've dug for myself?

Ron,
What do you think? I was just at your thread and it seems like we might be thinking the same.

First of all, Lala, thanks very much for your post....I need that boost today.

DM, I think you need (like me) to give her the gift of missing you. You've read the past correctly, and I think you know what you (and me) need to do. She (they) is taking full advantage of everything you've offered, and if she's not sure of what she wants to do, then give her a push (whithout telling her you're pushing)

Go back to my thread, and read sdguy's post on the gerbil, if you haven't read it already....it's very enlightening!

As far as getting yourself out of the hole, look at who you want to be, and start climbing.... Like you, I worry about going dark, as Jennifer said, there are risks.....but I think that the risk to our self-esteem and sense of worth is greater... In starting to turn my back, I haven't felt so good about myself in months.

I mentioned that I want my wife back more than anything, even now...but I don't want the woman she is now..not by a long shot....she wants to be good friends with my kids, I hear her talk to them, and she's all bright and happy, when she talks to me, I get the 'business' tone...If she's going to do that to me, I don't want anything to do with her....

Keep your chin up buddy, we'll get through this!

Ron

DM,

IMO the biggest issue you face is that she does not have any concept of what loosing you will mean. You are so wrapped around her little fingure that she doesn't need to contact you, bscause she knows you eventually will. Your Plan A is not as bad as you might think, yes it lacks some self respect but you have been meetin ENs and staying away from LBs. The biggest influence that my Plan a had on DW was that I didn't give up, and you've done the same. But all this being said she needs to see you really stand on your own two feet. I suggest you go to a modified Plan A where you do not initiate contact, but follow all Plan a rules when she contacts you.

Did she get the rest of her stuff out? What are you still paying for that she benefits from?

You and Ron are doing the things that she will remember but is putting on one very good poker face. You two need to do the same, no looking SAD! Put on your POKER face and let your pain out here, not in front of them.

Hey TMTS,
It's good to hear from you. How are things going in R-land?

You guys are right. I've come to the same conclusion and for once, I feel like I know what to do now. I'm not going to chase after her anymore. I need to let go and slowly start walking away or atleast make her think I am.

I haven't tried to contact her since thursday. She actually texted me lastnight to tell me something she was excited about on her business trip. I sent her a short "Wow, that's neat. I'm happy for you" kind of response. Then she replied again and I didn't respond after that.

We're supposed to have dinner when she comes back, but I'm not going to bring it up anymore. We didn't set a day or time for it, so I'll just let it go and see if she asks about it. I'm supposed to cook dinner for her, but should i do that anymore? If she brings it up, I was going to suggest we just go out somwhere. I want her to see that something snapped inside of me and i'm not going to be her puppy.

So I guess this is still plan A, but a very toned down version. No more I loves you's and "let's work it out." I want her to come back, but I don't NEED her to. There needs to be a line between what I should do for her and what I shouldn't, so I can plan A, but show confidence and send the message that I'm not going to take this crap anymore.

I'll be ok with or without her, so that's how I should be living. I'm finally starting to feel better about this. I hope it lasts.

Ron,
I've read the story of the gerbil on your thread. It's helped me a lot. I just have to keep remembering it. Maybe I should get a picture of a gerbil and put it in my wallet.

and to answer your question, TMTS..

She still has some stuff in the garage and in our storage unit. They're mostly things that she can live without. She never comes by the house anymore. I'm going to take all of it to storage soon or have her do it. I'll bring my stuff from storage back home, so it's all hers.

We have an agreement on paying for stuff. She pays for my health insurance through her work because I'm self employed and don't get benefits. I pay for her auto insurance, the storage unit and health club membership. That's about it. Since she's living at her F's for free, she really only has a car payment (which is under my name), but she has a student loan and a huge credit card balance that I didn't know about until all this happened.

If we were to get a D, it would be pretty cut and dry. Nothing complicated. What she has is hers and what i have is mine. I got the house before we were married and i don't think she'll try to take anything from me. This has never been about money.

You know that part of your plan B prep is to change this nice cozy payment arrangement. No wonder she's got no respect for you, she has been given no limits. First thing i would look into is the insurance matter, becasue that is a big one to hold over your head, don't ask her to start paying for her own stuff until you get your ducks in line, and by all means tell her when you are getting things switched over. Once you have that done you need to cut her off in one shot (Why the He!! are you paying for any of this)

Your d would be anythng other than cut and dry because she knows how to play you and will continue to do so.

Do you want your W back, then stop making it easy for her to be away from you and get yourself concentrating on this OM2. Do you know anything about him? Have you exposed? To her you show WHAT WAS MISSING BEFORE! If she has low need for conversation and you don't shut up, your not going to get anywhere, just like if one of her inportant ENs in physical appearance and you look like death on feet. you need to not talk and gussy up. get my point? It seems like you are working on ENs that she don't care about, so figure out which ones she does and concentrate on those.

This is a good time for this to come up becasue you seem to be in a good emotional space right now, so time to focus man. This is not over by a long shot. You saw how fast it happened with me. Keep that in mind.

I need the health insurance and I live in CA where it's pretty expensive to get on your own. What if I pay her in advance for the rest of the year then separate everything else?

I don't know anything about OM2 except his first name. No one really knows much about him, not even her friends.

I'm in the dark about her ENs.
The only things she complained about when I found out about the first A, were these..

I didn't pay attention to her or seem interested when she talked to me about work, etc.. so, I've been trying to talk to her and I always ask how her new job is going. That's about all we talk about anymore.

We used to go out a lot with a huge group of friends and she complained that I would not spend any time with her when we did. I was always off socializing with other people and not paying attention to her. If she would come out with us now, I would be at her side the entire night, but she doesn't want to see me.

She said that we were just roommates and I only took care of her financially, but that was a major EN I was meeting. She likes the finer things and I provided that for her. Don't get me wrong, she was never a gold digger, but she did like to show off a little.

Physically, I was a little out of shape, but I've lost 20lbs since then and I'm going to the gym.

For the most part, I honestly believe I met most or all of the other ENs during our marriage, but I could be horribly wrong. She never complained about anything else. Now she doesn't let me meet any. How can I meet her EN's if she keeps me at such a distance?

Hi buddy,

Here's the point, you are still meeting some of her emptional needs hence why she strings you along. Take care of the insurance deal are your member of any kind f porfesisonal association? They usually get food deals on these kinds of matters (But consult with ohters on this ne... remember I'm Canadian, so I'm not too in tune with medical insurance costs). It sounds like affection and attention is high. do you still touch her? Hand on the shoulder, rub of the back, touching her hair. Don't ask her, just do it. She won't say it but it will affect her.

You need to get more info somehow on this guy so that exposure can be done and see if he cracks under pressure.
Between applying pressure on his side, and her seeing you move towards your independance, it's shoud really make her think. Nothing is real to her right now because it's just been too east for her.

I'll probably just have to pay her up front for the health insurance for the year. She just signed me up a couple of months ago when she got the new job and making her cancel now could be an LB, don't u think? If I pay her up front, she can't hold it over my head.

I'm not sure who I could expose OM2 to or how to put pressure on him. He is single and knows that she's married, but obviously doesn't care. She thinks being separated gives her the right to see other people, so in her mind she's not doing anything wrong.

Her friends or family will not put pressure on her. They don't agree with what she's doing, but they've decided to stay out of it. She doesn't talk to any of them about this.

Things are pretty hopeless.

NOOOooooo...not hopeless, DM. Don't lose hope yet!

TMTS is right...stop letting her get to you and start believing that you are THE MAN!! Feelings follow actions, so start doing whatever you can to FEEL that way. Working out is a good start, going out with your friends, etc.

You know the story about the girlfriend and boyfriend who break up and the girlfirend begs and begs for him to come back and he looks down at her like a lost puppy dog. But then he starts seeing her out having fun, she stops calling him, etc. All of a sudden, he wants to get back together! At that point, she has the choice, not him...RIGHT? It's human nature, DM...play into things that don't fail...like human nature.

YOU DA MAN from now on...come on, buddy...you can do this!!!!!!

Listen to Resonance. She knows what she's talking about.

You know, relative to Canada, California is a small [place and I can find you to kick your [censored]. LOL

How is getting your own insurance an LB? She left YOU man, not the other way around, all you're doing is taking care of yourself.

And what about the stuff you are paying for? This is why she is playing you man. She's having her jollies with OM2 but you're flipping the bill, then you wonder what her intentions are when she does give you time. It's quite obvious why she hangs out with you... so do you still think this has nothing to do with money? IMO it has everything to do with it, and she needs to experience the reality of fending for herself.

STOP this NOW!!! Call insurance companies today. (I'll pull a Mrs. Wondering on you and be on your case until you do).

Your message to her is very simple. You love her, you are willing to reconcile (Not I want you to come home), but you understand her choice and will start planning a life without her. You want to tell her this with your best poker face, no emotions. Once this is done then you want to get more deeply into your plan B which includes an LSA. (YOu want to see something that will make it real for her, this is it)

Don't kive up hope...never give up hope, but plan as if you have. Say you want her, show her you moving on.