Who sleeps? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi K I did send a PBL in Oct when I started plan B.Do you think I should send another one adding in Dobsons idea of telling him his free to go etc.?

Hi Hopenpray (hope you got some sleep...)

I'm happy that you sent the official Plan B letter. I don't really think another one is needed. I'm not on board with Dobson's 'set you free' letter either---it's kind of manipulative. Your next letter to him ought to be divorce papers, and hopefully that won't be for a while.

If you do feel the need to 'take the temperature' of the situation (some do when they're in a dark Plan B), then occasionally the Harley's will have you send another Plan B letter---but that usually reiterates your desire to save the marriage if certain conditions are met.

I read somewhere that Dr. H himself noted..tongue in cheek I might assume..that if there is any chance it would help end an affair, a billboard could be rented out for exposure.
I think the CEO needs to be told immediately.

MEDC,

I too thought that exposure was kind of a requirement in ending the A for stubborn WS. I still think that she should inform the CEO.

Afterall, her WH has been living with the OW for more than a year now with no sign of the affair on it's own ending so far.

Who

mkeverydaycnt:

I believe that I did see something about that instance Dr. H said---I can't remember if it was in a radio show, or perhaps in one of the newsletters. But I think the essence was that he and Joyce had pretty much POJA'ed a Billboard exposure policy---as you say, tongue-in-cheek with regards to ending the secrecy of an affair.

MarriageBuilders has never endorsed a 'expose to everyone' approach, at least in the years that I've been here (and they've been many). Certainly this was NOT the case when I was counseling with the Harley's in the late 90's. There are sites that do endorse this type of exposure--- **edit** site is one---and **edit** spent a lot of time on these boards, and certainly has 'studied' with the Harley's. But that is her own methodology---and I don't know how successful it's been for her.

Bill doesn't just make this stuff up---they do try to track results and generate metrics, to see what works, and discard what doesn't. And it's possible that the MB methodologies have changed---but I see no evidence of this on the material on this site. Surviving an Affair doesn't talk about exposure beyond that of letting your WS know that you know. I think this is a very important aspect---the scorched-earth exposure policy can be extremely damaging with regards to entering into recovery (remember, you need to 1. End the Affair, and 2. Set tbe stage for recovery). I've asked Steve Harley to write a 'white paper' regarding this---I hope he can find time to do so and publish here. It would be a great resource. WAT's guide for exposure, for example---is just Dave's opinion (and an admittedly slanted one). And I love him like a brother (if he'd only take me sailing), but there are points that I know contradict stuff that Steve and I talked about.

So, back to hopenpray's situation: The facts are:

1. Affair has been going over a year.
2. She's in Plan B (not a perfect one, but one that the WS knows about.
3. The affair has already been widely exposed. Family, friends, coworkers know. There is no secrecy.

And you want to tell the CEO. What's the point? Think of the ramifications. What are the odds that this puts the final nail in the affair? (really small). What's the odds that if it does, the WS will think fondly of Hopenpray, and be ready to leap towards reconcilation (really small). What's the likelihood that this will piss off the WS (pretty good). What's the likelihood that the WS will contact Hopenpray and start a fight---that will do an amazing amount of draining lovebanks on both sides? (guaranteed).

So, weigh the risks vs benefits here.

Harley's advice is always extremely consistant, and follows a pretty basic set of rules (I do programming on the side, and would be able to whip up some visio diagrams/process maps in no time). But these rules are always applied in the context of the situation, and that seem to be what you're missing...

Lest we not forget that her WH has told her that the CEO already knows. So if he's not lying this should have no affect. Right.

I still think the point of exposure here is necessary because WH is the office supervisor. Sure his coworkers know about the affair, but they are in no position to influence him to "see things more clearly." His boss, the CEO, is.


Who

Hope,

Is your WH a direct report to this CEO, or is there higher management in between?

If he is a direct report, I am pretty sure the CEO is fully aware of where and whom your WH is living with, especially if she works there, too.

I agree with K, that a year after he moves out, to expose to his boss, when all his co-workers already know seems like it would hurt more than help.

Hope, how was your Plan A? Was it a good one? You sound kind of reactionary right now, so don't know if you have been that way around WH.

If you had a very good Plan A, and if the recent times you have seen WH you presented a calm, bright, loving force...I would say you are on the right track for a dark Plan B.

If he is drinking, getting tatoos, shacking up with dumbsell...it could be just a matter of time before it all starts to crack wide open.

Your WH husband is right on one account, and that is that D papers are papers, and people can and do get remarried all the time. However if, as K says, your love is completely and totally gone, what good does it do you if he does crack, bottom out, see the the light?

So, with all that said, how was your Plan A, and your demeaner with your most recent contacts with him? Have you left a very good impression? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The PBL could be resent (but first lets see your answers to the Plan A question above, okay?), and this time the mediary will be honored. He doesn't have any say in this. A plan B is not a POJA.

Hi WhoMe:

You're doing a different ROI calculation that I am.

WH has claimed that he told CEO: process map says:

1. True. hope tells CEO and he does nothing, because he already knows. No harm, no benefit (0)

2. True. Hope tells CEO and he shares with WS. WS laughs it off. Small harm for WS's lovebank (BS is sneaking around) (-5)

3. True. Hope tells CEO, he shares with WS. WS gets really pissed and confronts Hope. Major harm for WS's lovebank, major harm for Hope's love bank. (-100)

4. False. Hope tells CEO. he doesn't care. See 1.

5. False, Hope tells CEO, he tells WS, they laugh about it. see two, but probably put (-20) down, because of the being caught in a lie.

6. False, Hope tells CEO, he tells WS, nothing happens at work, WS get's pissed and confronts Hope. See 3, subtract another 100 for the fact that it was a cover up, and the confrontation will likely be stronger. (-200)

7. False. CEO listens to Hope. Fires husband on the spot. (-1000)

We could go into many different scenarios, but I really can't see an opportunity for this to help the WS see the error of his ways, lose something close to him, AND be ready to rejoin Hope in recovery. If you want to do 'revenge'---then go for it (I don't think it'll be an effective form, but who knows...). If you're looking for recovery---using this tactic needs to be done from Plan A, and with a negotiation process. When you're in Plan B, the window of opportunity has shut.

And "hi" Weaver!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[edited to add smileys)

Hey K!

So good to see your handle on the board again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

When you're in Plan B, the window of opportunity has shut.

OK, Lightbulb goes on. I have to agree with you considering BW is in a weak ineffective plan B. What you are saying is not that she shouldn't have exposed to the CEO, but that it is too late now that she has gone to plan B.

It would now look like revenge.

Guess that folks here who are in plan A need to take that to heart ... there is a window of opportunity that doesn't last forever!

Got it and looking at it that way, I have to agree.

Who

JJ it was difficult doing plan A cos he moved out when Ifound out about affair.I tried my best but most times he didn't want to talk much,saw him for a few mins whenever he dropped kids,never stayed for coffee etc.I'm sure he noticed the physical changes in me.I think he was worried I was going to start asking him to come home!!He knows I was going out more and having fun with friends kids told him.I was happy and relaxed when I saw him.he was always tense.

He kept me hanging saying he was thinking about what he wanted to do.He held all the cards and he knew it!End of Sept he said he wasn't coming home so I decided to start plan B.

Thanks K for your time and effort you put into my situation...much appreciated.You really know what you talking about.I think my only option now is a 'quiet' plan B.I have no control over WH only myself so I will prepare myself for the divorce papers.Hope they don't come before Christmas!His timing sux but what do they care..he left 2 weeks before Christmas last year!!
He said he told lawyer not to serve me at home cos he didn't want the boys to see!!As if they haven't seen enough already??
I dropped DD17 at WH today.He said'hope dad doesn't get trashed tonight..if he does I'll give him the finger!'
I felt so helpless.The boys don't deserve this... its so sad.

What is a quiet Plan B? Is that where you don't resend the PBL? I'm not familiar with that and don't want to assume I know what it is.

Hope, I have a story to tell you about a lady I know whose sitch was soemthing similar to yours. It is interesting in the simularities. And provided you still would like to reconcile a year (s) from now...

This lady and her WH were married since teens. He was a model husband, friend, worker, etc. He got into an affair with a wild loser type, left her. Started listening to outrageous music (for him), got a tatoo, started partying and pretty much acting like a teenager.

They divorced. She got busy with her own life, even started dating.

She had no contact with ex during this time. Only heard through her kids what he was up to.

I can't remember if it was a year or two later, when he got over his mid-life crisis, her daughter pulled a fast one and invited both of them to go out with her for dinner. Neither knew the other was coming. (this is a true story, no lie).

Well the lady wanted to leave, but her ex asked her politely to stay.

Long story short...they ended up remarrying and are very happy.

A mid life crises, can sometimes change a man for good and he never returns to his old life...

But sometimes, he decides his old life wasn't so bad, and he gets all the childishness out of his system.

I am not trying to give you false hope, because I do not believe any hope is false, but that if you still want him, after you have moved on with your life, he may likely be back.

This affair is an addiction, and I'm glad K is back reminding us all of that.

He is saying that he wants to be friends, that you can always get remarried. These are big positives in my opinion.

I have other stories of couples who have remarried after divorce. My sister, a coworker, a friends parents, Elizabeth Taylor (and that's just off the top of my head).

But in all the cases where I know them personally, the BS had decided they had had enough of the chaos, the pain, of hoping against hope, and decided to get busy with the business of living their life in joy.

Your kids need this from you. Not only is their Dad completely whacked out, their mother is hurting terribly. This is too much for children.

I just want you to keep this in mind so that your Plan B is very dark, and emotionally you get to a good place. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It'll be your choice in the future if you want him back or not. Up until this Plan B, you have given him all the power to choose. This alone is going to help you to get to a good and healing place...for you and those boys.

Hope,

JJ is right on here. I think that a year is enough time to be in turmoil. You need a dark plan B for your own well being and survival.

I'll go one step farther by saying that IMHO, you should live your life for you and your children and not count on your WH ever coming back. Not that he might not come back, but rather you should have a life of your own in case he never does.

Who

Thanks JosieJones for your encouraging words.A quiet plan B is K's description of no contact.It's weird how alike my situation is to the one you described.Mt son D-Js for parties and WH has asked him to make CD's with house and trance music!!-stuff the kids like.plays it full blast in his car!so not like him!!!Son just laughs.

Why should he be able to have his fun-filled affair and when he tires of it come crawling back! It's not fair,they will never understand truely what they put us through.WH told me once"I'm going through this with you".if he had been standing in front of me I think I would have hit him..
Just found email stating his paid a lawyer for consulation on 6/12/07. Ironically that was my DDAY last year.Papers DEFINITELY on there way.

WHO you are so right.I'll take my power back.

3 months after DDay I was in a bad way emotionally.A work friend(I work in a hospital) suggested I see a Psychiatrist in the hospital.The first thing he said to me was "'you do know this affair won't last"'He asked me" was I prepared to wait 2years for WH."I sobbed 'no'.He said lots of his patients were men you had done this and when they woke up their wives had moved on and they were now in therapy having to cope with the realization of all they had lost!!

I've never forgotten that conversation!!!

Hi Hope,

You're very welcome for the help---it's just a reiteration of the MB stuff. I do think the 'dark' or 'quiet' (in K-speak) Plan B is the place to be now. When you get into Plan B, contact with the WS interferes for two reasons:

1. It has the potential to meet some of the WS's needs.

2. It almost always is a negative interaction that withdraws from your lovebank.


Indeed. On the other hand, you may find your husband crawling back someday. And you may not understand how truly miserable he has been with regards to what HE put himself through.

Having been a BS---as miserable as that experience was, at least I wasn't 'responsible' for the affair part (certainly I could take ownership for my half of the marriage up to that point). Imagine it being a mess of your own making. That's why when WS's wake up and truly understand---they're often overwhelmed with what they've done. And angry. And depressed. It's one of the reasons that the early recovery process is a very narrow one littered with landmines---and it really helps to have a professional coach help the couple work through the path of recovery.

I agree with WhoMe with regards to focusing on yourself and the kids. Having said this, I'll go into my "K Lecture Mode", and warn of the following:

1. No friends of the opposite sex. You're way vulnerable right now. Attila the Hun would look like a sensitive man to you...

2. Don't hang out with WS bashers. It causes a drain on the lovebank---and you want to keep his account open for as long as possible---sometimes it takes a long time to crawl back.

3. My fingers tell me that I always typed a third point here. For the life of me, my brain cannot remember what it might have been. Getting old is a pain... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


God bless you and the kids---I hope your Christmas is peaceful.

Addendum for WhoMe:

Yes, ONE of the reasons I wouldn't recommend exposure to the CEO is the Plan B aspect, but that's only one factor. If you're really interested in 'exposure scenarios', we could run some on your other thread.

I agree.

However, and I didn't see hope's PBL but supposedly there was a road map back home in there where if he followed her lists of requirements...

The beauty of what I was trying to convey is that NOW it is your choice, hope. The power has been returned to you. No longer are you in victim mode, now you are taking power over your life. Up until the point of Plan B, the WS really holds all the power.

Not that I'm trying to make it a huge power struggle thing, but the metamorphous from victim to survivor, and individual recovery is a huge shift in consciousness.

Does that make sense?

I have always felt that the beauty of Plan B was in this shift, and very necessary both to personal recovery and marital recovery if it came to that.

When the WS leaves, ALL choices have been taken away from the BS. Well all but one, and that is to divorce. And that is not much of a choice when it isn't what you choose happily.

Why should you take him back after he has had all his fun? Well you shouldn't if you don't want to. But remember, an addiction where you have abandoned your family is not fun. Drinking and acting like an idiot is not fun. Being with home wrecker dumbsell is not fun.

I pity him, not you. He is making the mistake of his life.

If you get those D papers before Christmas, please know we are all right here with you in spirit. You are not alone.