FWIW,

FB has already made the decision to work on her marriage. Since this is her thread, I guess I'd have to agree with BA on this one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

She hasn't asked anyone here if she should try to recover her marriage.

With all due respect, and I really do mean that, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> perhaps those who really disapprove of her decision to try and recover her marriage should try and spend their time helping someone whose situation they do approve of.

All the harsh words in the world aren't going to make her divorce her FWH just because a few strangers here think she should.

Who

ya'll can have at helping whomever you want...

It's just my opinion that affairs with PEERS are way way way different than affair with GIRLS (under 21)

I don't think that my words are more harsh than the REALITY of her husband actions....

and the pontential damage a year affair can have on a young girl so very early in early adult developemental years...

it's basic human growth and developement 101

I will also never ever believe that all marraiges should be saved

but those are just opinions....

ARK

FB:

I hope you hang around on here long enough to be able to learn from those that will be helpful to you.

I don't agree with the substance or the tone of some of these posts, or hijacking your thread to discuss whether someone is a troll.

Best wishes to you,

"but would wish a 28 year old man on your 18 year old daughter..."


Yeah, you kind of did, Ark.

To clarify:

1.She was 18. The whole time. EA/PA. She was 18. It began in August of 06 ended in Mar. 07. That is 8 months total, a few of which they had NC....in which she was 18 the entire time.

2. My husband is not currently a pastor. When I was referring to a pastor I was refering to the OW's father. My H is an 'ordained minister' meaning that in a file he has a piece of paper that states that at one time his church ordained him. He supports our family in a secular job. If my H wanted to con church members out of their sacrificed tithes, he would have stuck around that church, got paid the big bucks, or left and blackmailed the family for all he knew and had witnessed.

3. I understand your concern with him working as a youth pastor in any capacity. Not going to happen. Ever again.

4. He was not this girls youth pastor. He was a youth pastor in our previous church. He was not on staff at her church, but he did play guitar on Wed nights.

5. I never placed more blame on her parents than I did on him. He is to be faithful to me no matter the circumstances, influences, etc. He has taken responsibility for that.

I personally have bitterness toward this man, the pastor, because I believe not only his influence but his direct actions contributed to the problem. I haven't mentioned that it was her father, the pastor, that ordered her to stay the night at my IL's home where my H was staying while we were separated, both nights the PA occurred. Why did he order her to stay? BC HIS wife had found out about HIS affair and was 'going crazy' -pastor's words. Why she couldn't have stayed at her sister's, cousins', many choices of friends, you tell me. I personally have bitterness toward this pastor bc in the fall we visited for their 'fall festival' and he put his arms around me and told me that his church was a 'safe place' for ME, knowing full well that his daughter had feelings for my H and my H for her. So IF I'm a little hard on the pastor and not as hard on my husband at this point, it is because MY HUSBAND HAS APOLOGIZED AND I HAVE AND AM IN THE PROCESS OF FORGIVING HIM, and therefore my bitterness toward my H has subsided to a large extent.

I would also like to add that previous to my H, this girl's BF was 6 years older than her, whom after my H broke it off, she became engaged to. Who then broke it off with her to be with someone else.

And now again, this girl's current BF is in his mid twenties.

Are they all rapists too?

Not everything is black and white, the way you like to make it seem.

I was the first person to respond to Fireblossom where she first posted on the Recovery forums. I suggest she copy/paste her post over here where it would "get more attention"

Frankly, this was not the sort of attention I hoped she'd find.

When I first posted on these forums, it seemed that there was way more compassionate help available, with far less in the way of judgemental remarks.

These forums were instrumental in helping me find solutions to the situation I was in, and has helped many others in the situations they were in. But of late, there are so many "helpful" posts that are so tainted by opinion of the poster that, really, no help is offered. Rather the offerings are unmercifully judgmental, but if someone speaks out about it, they are likewise roasted.

I'm not sure I would send anyone "new" to these boards today, or not. It seems that many threads turn into chaotic showdowns of ego and power. This helps no one.

Fireblossom, I must apologize to you for what you've been subjected to on this forum. That was not my intent. These forums have not always been this way. My suggestion now to you would be read all you can from Harley's books, "Surviving an Affair" and "His Needs Her Needs", and continue to read as many of these threads as you can bear, for there is a wealth of great posts that will help you along your way. Just be advised that a fistfight may break out at any time, and you may be judged by some for reasons you may not understand. You do have more to gain here, than to lose. But please know I had no idea your thread would lead down this path.

Ark...I have read hundreds, maybe thousands of your posts, and have marvel at your wisdom, insight and your ability to offer brilliant advice to people in situations I couldn't even grasp. Your responses to this thread fell short of what I've grown to expect from you.

That's all I have to say about that (Forest Gump)

Thanks, SD. Maybe I should stick to the reading materials and away from this board.

I am however, again, disappointedly alone.

Well, you don't have to be. There is good help here, and always has been. Your skin will have to be a little thicker than mine had to be when I signed on in 2003.

It is a public forum and anyone can sign up and post. You are now in a position to fully grasp the perils, but I do sincerely hope you stick around. As I said before, there is more here to gain, than to lose!

Best wishes,
SD

FB, I hope you stay too. There are people here who will help you. I don't understand the hoo-ha over the age difference between OW and your FWH. Like I said, I was 19 when I married my husband who was 26 years old. We just celebrated our 30th wedding anniversary.

shattered...
there is no way that I can or will define an affair between a 27 year old an 19 year old as the same as people over 21...
to me it's not the same as the hundreds of affairs that come here...

I do not imagine or see those ages as peers and equal especially in an affair....

can't and won't do it...

but in the end it's only my opinion...take it or leave...I don't really care...

I for one could never ever in good conscience give advice to rebuild such an act without severe intense therapy in which I hold little faith in really fixing...
the WS...

what others choose to do is their choice without a doubt...

my remarks are not judgemental...
they are questions...

how would you or you or you or you or whoever is reading this feel about a 26 year old married man having an affair with 19 year old...

what is your opinion about the character makeup of such a person...

it's a question
not a judgement...

it's a valid question in my opinion....

it's a deal breaker for me....
and my advice is to NOT gloss over what the wiring is needed for a grown man to do this with a young girl...

I'm also gonna say that there isn't any recovery in any marriage until you face the reality....of the actions...
that goes for the BS also....

so even if there is abuse....neglect....etc etc etc if someone decides that they want to save their marriage...we should all just help them...no matter what...

I won't post a word to this poster....
I will hold my opinions to myself...though obviously the only opinions that are welcome are the ones that yell

yes by all means invest your life with this man

and I never have and never would wish such a thing on a 19 year old ...
that's just beyond ridiculous....

again not every marriage should be saved....
and that's all this board is....
opinions....


so my helpful advice..
If I were this poster I would truly truly reflect on the character of such a husband..

I wouldn't tolerate one second of poor me behavior....as if he was a victim...

I would seriously seriously soul search if I felt my husband could be trusted around under 21 year olds...
seriously seek out the answers...
and then make a decision..

and then the good news is is that answer can be yes...
that's a possiblity...

but it must be examined closely not glossed over
not pushed under the rug
not blame shifted on to other adults in this girls life...

ARK^^

Ark... I think you need to re-read her posts. It sounds like you're mixing up the facts.

Ark... you make excellent points, as usual. And I am waay underequipped to spar with you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And as I said before, I'm convinced you are one of the best at sizing up situations and offering advice that is exactly on the mark. My only point is this...due to your strong feelings regarding tender age of the OW, your initial posts had a harshness that I had not seen from you before.

You are right...it's all about opinions and posting from where we each stand. In that I recommended fireblossom post on the GQII forum, I wanted her to feel the same compassion and empathy I felt when I first posted.

My respect for you has not dampened.

SD

Fireblossom,

Okay, here's some things that jump out at me.

First, he's working at the marriage. That's good. You say that you and he have decided to try to work it out. This isn't going to be easy, and it isn't going to be quick. You have an uphill climb.

And you are right - there are so many times that you will have to stuff your own feelings to help him patch up his own. But remember, too, that there are times when he is stuffing his feelings to help you patch up yours. It should be a two-way street, and you should mention that to him. Tell him about your fears, and he will tell you about his.

If you don't talk about your fears, the intimacy factor drops, and you lose that closeness in this very delicate dance of recovery.

Remember too, that in this dance, there should also be happiness shared. Because to focus only on the bad and sad moments isn't


real.


You aren't "forgetting" about the affair by not talking about it all the time.

You ARE doing yourselves a great disservice by talking about it all the time, however.

Because recovery means that you have to do a little of each - talking about what happened before, and what you went through, and the pain - but also about the things that are going right, the things you are doing together now that are working correctly, and the plans that you have for the future together.

It is the future together and the things you are doing right that will keep you glued to one another, keep you stronger together. And make for the recovery process together.

Because if it's always "affair talk", always sadness, always crying, you cannot move ahead.

Regarding the communication problem, I will bump a thread from awhile back that might help you. It's on body language and communication, some rules for the "talks" that might help you move ahead in the process - so you don't wear yourselves down.

Regarding BA's question about bad advice - I'm not up for moving away from family. They are your support network, even when they don't seem like it so much. In winning back your husband and marriage, those who once saw you as a liability in the family will turn around and see you as a strong woman with conviction and purpose; one who stands for something and follows through with dignity and grace. In the end, they will come to appreciate you and find you the person they respect more than others, and love more than others. This ends up building up your self-esteem, and contributing to your marriage as well.

You see, I was the person in the family that no one respected. I've been around this block, FB. I'm lots older than you are, and if I can offer one piece of advice here, it's stand for what you believe in if you know it's the right thing to do - people always end up respecting you for it. Ultimately, that apology you're waiting for will come along, and when you least expect it. My MIL apologized to me

28 years into my marriage.

28 very long years

and I deserved it long before that

but when I got that apology..........

I was very much satisfied. And finally at peace with her, completely.

Sometimes it is worth the wait, when you know you are doing the right thing. Even when it takes the other person a long time to get there.

Speaking of apologies, BA owes me one. I shall wait for it. I'm the person HE tried to impersonate here on the boards. You see, HE is a HE, not a SHE. At least HE is a HE on the other boards HE frequents.

So if you choose to take the advice of BA, make sure you know who he/she is. Your choice, of course. Understand it will be very unlikely based in MB principles, however.

I will bump that thread for you.

FB, SD:

I can appreciate the loneliness you must feel, fb, because right now you really are working the recovery alone. Even if your H's affair wasn't with someone so much younger than him (and truly not fully developed, emotionally - ask Dr Phil about cases like this that he's dealt with on his show), you're only 10 months in2 recovery, if that is what this really is. I don't say that 2 depress you. Rather, 2 prepare you for what will likely be a 2-5 year recovery process, IF both of you are committed 2 doing whatever it takes 2 save your family.

I also have great respect for ark, and though I'm not a woman, I can appreciate perhaps why she's so adamant about her view of this si2ation.

Legally, 18 is "adult" in most (all?) states. But it doesn't take a very deep look 2 realize that people that age can be severely taken advantage of, particularly by people significantly older than they are. The internet is full of "consenting adult 18 yr old women" who have even been compensated 2 have sex in front of a camera. I certainly don't know this beyond doubt, but I would seriously question whether these women are "emotionally undamaged" by being used in this manner.

But I also have a man's perspective, though admittedly one of a man who was betrayed by my W having a long term affair with a "man" 11 years younger than her (that started when he was only 25 years old). I know how ma2re I thought I was at age 25. And in retrospect, how ma2re I think I really was at the time - really, I didn't "ma2re" 2 my own current standards until I was in my 40s.

So, who do *I* blame in all this? Doesn't really matter, but this quote of yours is what bothered me the most about your sitch:


This sounds 2 me like the OW's parents PLANNED the A. Did they? Or were they so willing 2 sacrifice their own daughter in this manner 2 hide her father's own affair? Either possibility is despicable.

What the mother should have said, even if she didn't know about her H's affair, was "he's married, even if he's separated. You need 2 leave him alone."

The church congregation needs 2 be made aware of what's happened. The pastor needs 2 be dismissed and banned from ever being allowed in such a role again.

If, for whatever reason, you and your H can't expose him, you need 2 get away from him forever.

And I say that because I know how hard true recovery will be if you have any possible reminders from staying in the same community as this phony man of god.

It would be VERY helpful for you if you and your H could agree 2 coach with one of the Harleys 2 help you get a solid recovery plan in place.

Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself, and a worthwhile goal. But it may be a bit prema2re 2 forgive your H at this point. Also, regaining your trust will take some time, and consistency in the commitment department.

best,
-ol' 2long

fireblossom, you should stick around. Ignore certain personal attacks (I do it all the time) and focus on the good advice that you get. There are certain individuals here who have huge egos because they have a certain number of posts under their belt and they think they are entitled to be heard and respected. Just keep in mind that those are just their opinions and there are many others out there or in here who have totally different opinions.

There are some really nice genuine people here who have all the good intention of motivating, helping, and encouraging you. Stick around and read, I think in the end, you'll be glad you did.

BA

BA:

For the most part, I haven't read much on threads you've posted 2, either here or on loveshack.

But I have 2 wonder: Giving you the benefit of the doubt, your best posts seem 2 offer decent suggestions, but don't feel 2 me as though they're coming from a base of personal experience or wisdom.

How old are you? I have an idea, but want 2 offer you the chance 2 convince fb that your advice should be listened 2.

-ol' 2long

Schoolbus, thanks... good, sound advice. I appreciate it!

2Long, thanks... you too gave me good advice. As for the quote you pointed out, I have personally wondered if her parents had an agenda. It would make sense in some ways... they had this odd 'inner circle' trust thing going on, that during the A my H was apparently accepted into. It was during this time that my H learned of a lot of awful things about this family... I've wondered if the PA was a way to seal the trust. -An odd thing that has always jumped out to me as well as my H was how passionless and robotic the PA side of it was. Not exactly textbook A. Crazy talk?

Unfortunately, I don't see how we could have recourse in getting this man to step down. His elders are his best friends and apparently destroyed the evidence and paid people off when when confronted with his affair. The congregation is half what it used to be, but those who have stuck around have been prepared with speeches by the pastor stating something along the lines that 'some former employees started rumors'. ... you get the gist.

And in general, I would like to just say that...

I have not been fully defending my H's actions. I have defended them up to a point, which was that he is NOT a rapist.

I also believe that certain opinions that I should divorce him ASAP are extreme. Is what he did wrong? Yes. Is he sorry? Yes. Did he take advantage of an 18 yo girl/woman? Yes. Is he sorry? Yes. Did he apologize to her specifically for taking advantage of her? Yes. Is my H as well as myself aware that this girl is going to suffer for a long time bc of this? Yes, and for that we are both crushed and saddened for her. Is he 100% responsible for her choices? NO.

If she's not responsible for her choices until she's the *magic age* of 21, and her parents aren't responsible for her choices, then I guess it's up to some kind of honor system for bad messed up guys/people to leave that age group alone? Sorry, but that doesn't make sense either.

My H is responsible for what he's responsible for. Her parents are responsible as well (not for my H's actions, that's never what I meant when I brought them up), and she is responsible too. All 4 of these people participated in this girl's detriment, and it is excrutiatingly sad. I can't tell you how many nights/days I have cried for her.

Is my husband's character flawed? Yes. Is he a hopeless sociopath? In all honesty, I have poured over that very question day and night, and no he is not. Yes, his wiring needs to be repaired and some of it has been, but we have a long way to go. But, I am willing to go it with him, because I love him, understand his life and appreciate his value.

If he WERE a hopeless sociopath, then Saturday night when something triggered my pain from the affair and it brought me to tears, it would not have brought him instantly to tears as well. He would have been cold, uncaring. It is in those moments that I am encouraged that there is hope, because he is real.

I am not enabling him.

I am not a doormat.

I am however trying my best to be a resource and source of insight to find him help in working through his issues, but I do get tired sometimes and want to just complain.

I call his parents when I need help with him.

He calls mine when he needs help with me. (Obviously, not going to follow the advice of BA regarding moving away from family...) love em or ... not so much love em, they're there for us when we need them

We are attempting to 'grow up together'.

We all should try a little harder to practice grace, not because we deserve it, but because it was first offered to us.

FB--I normally stay out of the MB fray, and fiercely resist giving advice, so I may be sorry I relaxed my personal rules, but here goes...As the adoptive grandma of 3 children who were actually molested by an adult, and a person who daily witnesses the devastation caused in children's lives by the sexual activity of an adult at the expense of a child, let me say this: We are talking about approximately a 7-8 yr. difference in age between your husband and the alleged "girl." True, he was older; the case could be made that he should've known better. However, there is HUGE difference between 19 and 26 and, say, 8 and 15. One is clearly abuse; the other is not.

This age difference is obviously a trigger for some; it does not have to be one for you. He was unfaithful, yes. Disloyal, yes. Immoral, yes. And all those other things, too. But I do not think that you have to try and defend him on this board against the charge of abuse. Deal with your real marriage issues--that will be plenty enough, I promise--and let this "girl" and her enabling parents be assigned their own (substantial) portion of responsibility to bear.

Don't carry any burden you don't have to pick up. You are already carrying all you need, and more. Good luck and God bless you both in your efforts to put the pieces back together.

t&l

Thndrltng,

Good input. I agree completely that the age of the participants carries a whole lot more weight than the age difference.

I'd say that most women would agree that many 18 year old women are about as mature as many men in their mid-20's. Making judgments based only on the age of the OW here, IMHO is a mistake without actually knowing more about her personality.

My DD was married and a mother at 19 and is very mature and responsible. But then I raised her to accept responsibility for her decisions and actions. As it turns out, she is a much better mother than I ever was. Makes me proud.

Who

FB,

I was married at 18, husband 24.

Anyway.


Let's move on from this issue, because at this point, you have made your decision to stay with him, and your marriage needs help.

I posted to AW. I see that part of your problem is that he still has many "justifications" for his behavior, which is likely the reason for some of the difficulty in your communication. He does not fully understand that the decision to have his affair is, was, and forever lands on his shoulders.

His tendency is to see the circumstances around him, and not to see that he controlled his own behavior. For example, in his post, he talks a great deal about the influences of others in his life - specifically the pastor. Also, he sees the influence of his own desires of being a star, and performing on stage, as influential in his affair, as leading him toward doing what he did, somewhat in the vein as the carrot on the end of a stick before him. The girl was added to the mix, money, fame, fortune, a future in the spotlight....and he was willing to do anything. Basically, he blames being starstruck and practically worshipping this pastor as the basis for his affair.

I wonder about this issue in his life.

Is there a pattern of him following one "passion" and then the next? Is he very easily "lured" into things? Drugs, groups of people, fads, schemes, criminal behavior?

Please don't take offense at my question - I ask only because I worry that if he is serious about this, then one has to ask if this type of thinking is seen as a pattern in his life, and if you might need to seek intervention for him in this regard, in addition to the depression issue.

One of the things I pressed in the post to him is that HE is responsible for the affair, and that HE is in control of himself. It is so common for people in affairs to state that these things "just happened", and they fail to see that they made decisions throughout the entire process that they could have made differently. In order to make true changes in your marriage and within yourself, the idea that things "just happen" has to be changed.

While we all do have a certain amount of things that "happen" to us, the idea that we "just happened" to have sex with another person is ludicrous, and the events leading up to it must be viewed more realistically if the marriage is to be made safe from future affairs.

I understand the struggle you face. I hope you read the communication thread. I am bumping it for AW.