"$50 bottles of shampoo"

Please, please tell me you are exaggerating and $50 shampoo doesn't actually exist...I thought my $15 shampoo was a splurge!

These sort of examples remind me of that movie "The War of the Roses"! Remember that?

The way I remember the movie both spouses grew further and further apart as they each played out their respective roles as husband and wife.

The were giving each other what the other wanted (or maybe what they assumed the other expected)? And they each were feeling as if what they contributed wasn't being appreciated.

Communication.

I'm just saying that I personally have met a lot of women who prefer the workaholic male for marrying and the sensitive male for fooling around with behind their husband's back... OR they naivley believe that one mere mortal male can be both EXTREMELY financially well-off AND EXTREMELY attentive to them. They just need to grow up IMHO but instead they usually just get two different males to meet their 'needs'.

This unrealistic and unfair combo of what a LOT of women are looking for in a mate is mentioned in the book Sassy, Single & Satisfied. The author talks about how so many women want a husband who makes a lot of money BUT they also want a husband who gives them a lot of attention too. Or they are attracted to the wealthy powerful male but don't give consideration to the fact that usually means that male won't have much time to devote to his wife and kids.

And the article is also about how those walk away wives expect, and usually get, to enjoy continued financial benefits of having a workaholic husband even after they dump him! Seems sort of hypocritical to dump a husband BECAUSE he's a workaholic and then to demand a huge amount in support payments from him after the divorce. Either the money is really important to the woman or it isn't...

I haven't heard about any cases like those in the article where all the woman wanted in the divorce settlement was for the man to spend more time with her and the kids... Nope she wants the $$$$$, the big fancy house, and in many cases tries to prevent him from spending time with his kids.

Hi folks,

I come from a strong MB background. So as opposed to saying "thank God I'm not married to these women"---which might be completely appropriate given the state of those marriages---I would rather look at this stuff analytically, appling Harley methodology to it.

So, I'll try to be brief.

Meremortal, you said:

Divorce and adultery rates are soaring more to increases in opportunity (equal), although I'd agree that the current 'instant gratification' environment we now live in is certainly not helping the situation.

Your comment about sacrifice goes pretty much against what Harley states---and it's an important (set of) MB principle(s). Unappreciated sacrifice is harmful to a marriage, because it drains the sacrificer's lovebank. That's different than putting your spouse 'first'. When you put your spouse first---you carefully and lovingly consider what needs they have, and then you meet them in a way that you're enthusiastic about (and that they are too). And they do the same for you. "Give and Take" illustrates that we have two sides---the Giver and the Taker---and it does a marital relationship no good when EITHER of these gets slighted.

Loving, sacrifice, giving are parts of integrity. So is honesty and receiving. All these basic needs must be met for a successful marriage to last.


And we don't know that these wives didn't do just that. The article is written as a cartoon to illustrate extreme situations. The cartoon might be correct, but based on my several years here, I'd suggest that the scenario you lay out (desparate housewives...) is a very rare one that shows up in real life.


Excellent point---when discussing meeting emotional needs, one has to balance the ability of the spouse to meet them. It's what the POJA (and safe negotiation is about). It's why one has to be honest with your spouse when your needs aren't getting met in the way that you like them.


In MarriageBuilder's philosophy, the selfishness of the taker is an equally important and valid state as the sacrificial nature of the giver. Both must be satisfied in both people to have a lasting, loving marriage. It's a fundamental principle that Harley uses...

Just my two cents.

Please remember that you are only reading one side of each story.

I can relate to the first case...my first H left me to my own devices for ten years while he chased the almighty dollar. I had babies alone, I went through a surgery or two alone, I planned parties alone, I took the kids away for the weekends alone, I spent holidays alone, my marriage was pretty much alone, and I played mommy and daddy because he wasn't there. There may be a whole lot more to the story than he's telling.

I sure didn't take him for 75% of his income, though. I don't know that I could have.

Hopeforus:


And you did so willingly and cheerfully (enthusiastically, in POJA speak)? While still maintaining meeting her other top two needs (usually the top 3 are the focus spost)? And the 15 hours/week together time?

When you do all the MB stuff AND your spouse takes you for a ride---you're dealing with a psychopath. And there have been a few of them around here, but that's maybe 3 out of the thousands of posters I've know here...

And the 'golddigging' at the end of a marriage seems to be a societal issue that has to do with the proliferation of lawyers (apologies to those 3 of you out there who are decent... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />). I'd love to see that stuff eliminated.

Sadly, I am not kidding.

From my perspective, I normally focus on the threads of BH's with WW, and I see many cases on the board at this moment where guys are either working their a$$es off or are completely paralyzed by fear of their WW to act in any manner, but in most cases both groups of BH's are trying to salvage marriages with WW that aren't worth having IMHO.

However, just like the article stated, although their WW are basically worthless as quality marriage partners, to get rid of them will cost them their home, kids, future income, etc. in addition to their marriage.

"And we don't know that these wives didn't do just that."

And we also don't know that they EVER spoke up and told their husbands that they wanted them to work/earn less so that they could be home more either. The article is about men who were blindsided by their wife suddenly demanding a divorce when the husband had not been given any indication that his wife was so unhappy.

And the fact that these wives then proceed to try to grab as much money from their husbands as possible in the divorce doesn't exactly give evidence that they do NOT value money as much as (or maybe even more than) getting attention from their husbands. I'm willing to bet that in these cases the wives did NOT ask their husbands to cut back on working because they wanted the money as much or even more than the attention they claim they were so neglectfully deprived of.

"The article is written as a cartoon to illustrate extreme situations. The cartoon might be correct, but based on my several years here, I'd suggest that the scenario you lay out (desparate housewives...) is a very rare one that shows up in real life."

What?!? "cartoon"? These are real men who are going through this. The article is about a growing trend. I for one believe this treatment of men needs to be addressed.

But hey, if you think it's just a 'cartoon' then by all means don't take it seriously.

MyRevelation:


Bad 'tude---dude... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, one of the blessings that I had when I dealt with this with my wife (and I have 'sacrifice' tatooed on my a$$), is that this forum didn't exist. I only had to listen to Steve Harley. Cut down the voices...

You want to always be supportive of marriages in both Plan A and B, barring any really bizarre circumstances (safety issues, mostly). It's OK to mock $50 bottles of shampoo (and I'm going for a hair-cut in a few minutes, so I'll ask...), and OK to call out bad behavior for what it is---but support the marriage effort. Mine looked to be a disaster---and in the end, it wasn't. But I would have never been able to call that 3 months, 6 months, or 9 months into the process...

OK. So instead of whining about it with a "MEN BEWARE" title, I'd like to see how you would like to see it addressed. And please do it in a MarriageBuilder's context.

Exactly MyRevelation!

While it may in fact be true that these men may be better off single, that still leaves the fact that these women are pretending they would have supposeldy preferred the attention to the money is exposed as a lie when they then proceed to extract every penny they can get out of the male.

I did so willingly and cheerfully. We always discussed the job offers I received which would take me away from home more. She always agreed. Didn't discover MB until after the A started, but we always spent a lot of time together when I wasn't traveling for work (only a lot of travel the last couple years). When I am home I do most of the cleaning, most of the cooking, more than my share of the laundry, we golf together, go out to eat just the two of us 2-3 times a week, go on vacations without the kids 2-3 times a year.

I'm not saying I didn't contribute to the condition the marriage was in that left the possibility of an A open, but what I am saying is I was/are doing all the things she "said" she wanted, but in the end, it's apparent WW may not have known what she really wanted. And that's the sad part. I grew up with nothing and was very happy. I would have been very happy without "things", but she was always saying "I want...I want...I want.." So did I miss something? Obviously. I've been thinking lately how I long for the days not too many years ago when I was in a job I liked and we were happy, but we "had" to have a bigger house, and we "had" to have those timeshares, and we "had" to have a nicer car.....

IMHO, I think you are getting too wrapped up in these theories, and ignoring real life issues and circumstances.

Keep in mind that 99% of married couples have NO CONCEPT of MB principles. They are just muddling along taking care of business the best that they can.

If you spend more time reading between the lines of the BH/WW threads, (and they are MUCH different than BW/WH situations) I think you'll see a much darker and contradictive wife as the norm rather than the exception, especially in high wage earner households. These women will proclaim one thing, but their actions betray their true intentions in most cases.

Hi Hopeforus:

Good. That gives me more hopeforyou... While your wife may not have known what her needs were (and clearly she has some 'radical honesty' issues), you aren't guilty of lovebusting and neglect.

Are you in Plan B yet? Given your situation summary (if it's accurate), Plan A would generally be brief for you. If you post me to an active post (if you're looking for advice), I'll be happy to pile on...

Sorry for my TJ, but for K: My active post is HopeforUs' return thread. Doesn't have all the details as I thought I'd been compromised, but it's got the last couple weeks.

Still in Plan A. WW is in WD (I think, seriously angry/depressed). OMW says OM told her it's over and he's trying his best to get OMW to not D his sorry butt. OM is a serial cheater (5 or so times OMW knows of), lives 1000 miles from home for work, is an alcoholic, phyiscally and verbally abusive to his wife, a real piece of work. WW met him when we relocated for work and 5 months later it was on.

My Revelation:

IMO (never humble, sorry), I do get caught up in the theories and principles. Why:

1. They're based on real life issues and circumstances, studied by folks with training on this. It's not ancedotal.

2. You're right that 99% of people have no concept of the principles. That's why we need to spread the word. They work much better than 'taking care of business the best they can'

3. You've been here registered for 4 months. I've been registered here for nearly 40 years---before the frickin' internet. I think I've spent thousands of hours working with both BH and BWs (successfully). Seriously---it's been over 10 years for me. And I have the benefit of being in a hopeless situation and pulling through with Steve's help. And I've been blessed with the opportunity to help hundreds of couples do the same.

I do hear your message. But it's one of hopelessness---give up on that lousy, exploitative marriage. In general, that's not the case...

I have to disagree with you ... I really think you are being naive. I think your premise of hope holds some truth and value for a BW dealing with a WH, but when the situation is reversed, I honestly feel that MOST of the BH's here would be better off going straight to Plan D and protecting their children and assets, especially if they are dealing with a WW capable of the deception necessary to maintain a long term affair or one who won't IMMEDIATELY go NC with the OM upon discovery.

MyRev, I read this and wondered if your thinking is because (generally) men fool around for the sex where women get more emotionally involved? I'm asking because in my situation, as soon as OMW found out, OM cut tail and ran (I'm pretty sure A is over) where my WW is/was so emotionally wrapped up in it she was willing to throw away everything for her "soulmate" who just happens to be a serial cheater and had no intention of doing all the things he said he was going to for WW (make you happy forever, treat you like a queen, etc).

BTW, if that is your thought, I agree. I know every situation is different, but the sterotype, in the case of infidelity, seems true to me.

"When you do all the MB stuff AND your spouse takes you for a ride---you're dealing with a psychopath. And there have been a few of them around here, but that's maybe 3 out of the thousands of posters I've know here..."

Actually sociopathy is on the rise (read The Sociopath Next Door).

Also, even when there is no knowledge of, and therefore no application of, MB principles, that doesn't therefore translate to the betrayed spouse bearing as much or even more responsibility or fault for adultery or divorce than the WS.

Even when you do not know about and not do the MB stuff, you can still be dealing with a sinfully selfish sociopath.

It's not as if the definition of sociopath is:
somebody whose spouse hasn't learned or used MB principles LOL

MB provides some wonderful tools which can be used to prevent adultery.

However, even MB principles don't guarantee success.

There is a very real, widespread, and growing trend for people to reject the sort of integrity and honesty that is required to follow MB principles. A LOT of people are just not that honest or interested in working on their marriage. They want what they want, and they want it now, and they don't expect to have to work on their marriage to get what they want.

Also, a LOT of people want more of a particular thing than is reasonable - not a true need but more like a bottomless pit addiction that no mere mortal could satisfy. And a LOT of people want it all - so many different things that no one mere mortal could possibly provide them all - again not true needs but selfish wants.

The fact remains that women who go after tons of money in the divorce settlement but say they are divorcing because they wanted more attention from their husbands instead of the money, are dishonest. If what they were claiming were true they'd be telling the husband's they are dumping that they don't want their money - not in excessive amounts anyway!

$50,000 per month in support payments is demanded but supposedly he didn't have to work so many hours to keep her happy? LOL

"Actually sociopathy is on the rise (read The Sociopath Next Door). "

dudette, that book was SUCH an eye-opener for me. I just never even realized that there were actually people out there that don't feel, who don't have a conscience.