Look at it from another point of view. What if Fireblossom took the kids and brought them to daycare and started up an affair at church with a man. She kept boinking and boinking that man. She brought you home an STD from the man. But you did not find out about any of this for a long long time.

She lied to you again and again at home so you did not suspect she was busy boinking an attractive and admiring man.

How would you feel? Would you help her recover? Would you confront her when you found out? Would you divorce her?

Could you ever fully trust her again?

Nothing I have read has indicated that Wake expects or expected anything from his wife. He was amazed when she agreed to attempt to recover with him. Tyk, other than that I have no disagreement with your post. He does have to keep on showing with his actions that he is a changed man.

Wake, I am not sure why the 2 of you keep receiving advice designed to lead you toward divorce, when you have not even had a chance to explore recovery. I would strongly encourage you to make the saving of your marriage your top priority after God. Everything you do and say should be with that purpose in mind.

Recovery is possible, it is do-able, and the two of you can be happy together in a way you only dreamed possible.

You guys have already been in recovery for nine months...long enough to birth a baby. Not long enough to birth a new marriage.

I agree with Neak.

Have you guys completed the Emotional Needs Questionnaires? The Love Busters? How about doing the Recreational inventory?

Are you getting 15 hours of Undivided Attention each week with two tiny ones to take care of?

Did you read about blind trust, btw? Harley says it's fantasy--not healthy in marriages. So not fully trusting (trusting blindly) is a great thing to understand. AW, you can rebuild her trust over time...and yours, in yourself.

No doubt.

FB can learn again to trust, through actions, changes, new habits and full transparency.

Many couples here on MB have done just that.

And understand that blind trust bears no respect for your partner...nor yourself.

Sounds like during the past nine months you both have been sharing a lot with each other...open and honest...AW, please read "Joseph's Letter"...posted by Pepperband, I think, here on MB (do a search). I believe you're in for the long haul...you want a thriving, intimate marriage...you've got another couple of years to go...because in working out the A, you also get to address what it seems to me, a lot from your whole life.

Hold yourself to honesty...do not withhold anything by justifying FB will hurt more....she hurts more than she thought was possible in this lifetime, I'm sure. It's stunning. Honesty is how we heal...sharing your stuff...listening and understanding her stuff...respectfully. Do not fight, refute, discount...listen and repeat when she speaks.

You both will begin to know yourselves as you are today...and the new selves you'll be tomorrow...together.

LA

AW,

My husband was a professional musician for many years. My daughter does that now as well. So I know about this issue. You can take it to the bank when you hear my advice on issues regarding the "stage". I have lived this life.

Being in the spotlight creates around you a kind of charisma that others are drawn to. You get....yes....groupies. The problem with groupies is that while they do admire you, they do not fully understand you. You get that fix of admiration for your EN, certainly, but it is a fleeting thing. The reason it is fleeting is because what ends up happening in the groupie relationship is that at first the groupie is getting something THEY want from you, which is a taste of YOUR spotlight!

You see, they are not in it to please YOU, they are in it to please themselves.

Let's just say the groupie and you somehow hit it off. The relationship sort of goes somewhere, and it isn't a ONS. Where does it usually lead to? I know that, too. The groupie usually ends up very frustrated, because what happens is that they are admiring the persona they see on the stage, which is what led them into the relationship in the first place. Exciting, star-struck, energetic. But, what they get in the relationship is the persona that goes into getting you ONTO the stage, which is something different entirely, right? There is the drive to practice that guitar, the drive to perfect the song, the practicing hour after hour after hour, the focus to music nearly all the time, and the groupie doesn't get your undivided attention and doesn't get their EN's met like they want it. They realize they are just an "accessory" to your life, and not the focus - because the stage and the music is the focus for you.

And they realize that what they saw on stage isn't what they get off stage. Your art is the person inside of you, and when they see you on stage, what they don't understand is that it takes quite a lot of work and focus on your part to get there. It isn't easy, it isn't magic, and it takes your energy away from others in your life to do it. It is a REAL JOB - And the groupie is not the star.

The very thing that attracted them to you, is the very thing that drives a wedge between the two of you.

Relationship over.


The difference in the relationship with your wife is that she is someone who is able to support you through your REAL life, outside of your art and creativity. She recognizes that part of you that is not "the stage", and is not "the star". She keeps you grounded, and can call bull###t on you when you are full of it - and most of the people who meet you via your stage persona just don't do that. Most of them are in it for themselves, selfish. There isn't the love and selflessness that you find with your wife.

Which brings me to a huge issue you have, AW.

Please see next post, because, I need to click through or lose this one.

SB

I'm back.

Okay, I was talking about selflessness.

Your wife is working quite hard at trying to understand what has happened. She says that she often feels like she has to stuff her own feelings, because she is afraid of how you are feeling, that if she states her own feelings

YOU will feel bad about what you did.

That is selflessness. When considering your working on your marriage, I would hope that you would put forth the consideration to FB that she give you in this regard. She struggles, AW, and you need to be able to hear her pain.


What I hear you talking a lot about is your childhood and you asking others about their lives, and questioning our ability to understand why you did what you did, etc. I also see you questioning whether we can understand because we don't share the pain and suffering you went through.

Here's a synopsis of my childhood, and of the last couple of years of my personal life. You can tell me if I earn the badge of being able to have shared enough pain or not. If I don't pass muster, then I will say that NOBODY on this board does, not even you, and they might as well shut this place down. Ready or not, here it comes.

At the age of 7, I became the victim of molestation which continued over the course of three years, by a member of my own family. At this age I was also raped by a neighbor, who was about 16 years of age.

I was physically abused by my father (who was not the molester) throughout my childhood, up until the age of 18 when I finally got married and moved out of my house. I am able to tell which beating occurred when, because we moved a lot, and I know what happened in which house. At the age of 12 my father committed felony child abuse and assault/battery on me. The following day, he saw the bruises on me and asked me where I got them. I knew I was in trouble, because to lie would bring a beating for lying, to tell the truth would bring a beating for accusing him of hurting me. I chose the truth, and was beaten again, which rose to another felony. There were so many beatings, it is almost ridiculous when I start to count them or tell about them. How does this sound to someone out there? At one point, the man put my head in the toilet. It was crazy.

Because I had such a great childhood, at the age of 16, I managed to choose an abusive boyfriend. I ended up in protective custody one night, and it happened to be the night before I met my husband. I actually apologized to my then-boyfriend for his "having" to beat me.........

Wow. This goes on - and yet, it all seems so long ago now.

My husband has cheated on me three times, twice very early in our marriage. The last time was two years ago.

My timeline for the last two years:

father cancer 2005
d-day early November 2005 "sex for the sake of sex"
my husband diagnosed with cancer November 22, 2005
student died Dec 2005 (aged 9, no warning, died in sleep)
dad heart surgery Jan 6 2006
husband cancer surgery Jan 9 2006
student nearly died and had kidney transplant Feb 2006
sister in law heart surgery March 2006
me, breast surgery June 2006
mother broken hip and arm June 2006
mother rehab until Sept 2006
father recurrence of cancer Sept 2006
daughter divorced Nov 2006
brother in law cancer March 2007
me, injured by an autistic student at work March 2007
me, shoulder surgery, Nov 2007


So, yeah, I've had my troubles. It's been a load of crap and then some. Nobody handed me a shovel, either.

Where was I? Oh yeah.


I went through my troubles when I was younger. I had a promiscous moment or two. I tried some drugs. Abused alcohol as a teenager and young adult.

And then I figured it out. It came to me that the person driving this bus

was ME

and I could go on in my life and do the blaming

or the driving.


Where I see YOU

sir


is at that same crossroads.


Which is why I am taking so much time posting to you.

I might be wasting my time.

I might not be wasting my time. I hope not.

You are defensive. Because you KNOW you are wrong. And being wrong hurts, doesn't it?


Hurts bad.


It will hurt less if you drop the defensiveness and move through to the next step, which is admitting that YOU drove the bus through this whole scenario.

Because if you can see where you made the wrong turns

where you could have stopped

and gotten off the bus


then the next time this type of thing happens in your life

it won't happen at all.

You will be completely in charge, and you will make the right decisions, and you will end up feeling

PROUD

instead of ashamed and guilty.



So, yeah, I can understand making mistakes.

I can understand many different circumstances.

You see, I was once 26 years old.

But YOU have NEVER been 51 years old. So I can offer advice from this perspective, and you don't have the advantage of age. Which brings lots of opportunities to do stuff wrong along the way.

Lots of errors, here.

So, I've had lots of chances to fix things, and so I have also had lots of chances to figure out how I would have done them right the first time.

Like, for instance,

FIX A MARRIAGE AFTER AN AFFAIR.

I've had three chances at that, AW.

Three chances - three chances - three chances.

I emphasize, because, if you took the time to read my history, you are probably wondering why, after three chances I even gave him the third try?

Read on.

Because his history of 28 years of doing the right thing with me gave him the chance.

You see, after his second affair, he was remorseful, and did things very right, for a long time.

He earned this chance.


And I do want to say that I learned something in my younger years about forgiving. I learned that the only way I was going to get through everything I had been through was to forgive those who had perpetrated the crimes against me. I have fully forgiven them. And my husband as well. I am very forgiving, and have learned that this is the key to my own peaceful existence.



As for your marriage:

You have to figure out that what you DO now will make all the difference in the world to FB. To how she feels in her heart and soul toward you.

To how she looks at you as a man.
To how she thinks she can trust you.
To how dependable she believes you are.


There is so much work you have to do, to earn so much back. This is not easy to fix. It isn't a "just get over it" kind of thing. Ten months is nothing - it will take FB and you several years, working together, to make it through this.

The key is that both of you are working. There are actions that both need to do, daily.

The EN questionnaire, and the activities that go along with it.

Reading about Love Busters. Especially, AW, the concept that your threatening suicide brings in terms of love busting. You need to consider how controlling that behavior is, and you need to understand how that is not in the best interest of moving your marriage or relationship forward.

You both need to understand that the person you control in this marriage is YOURSELF. And only yourself.

You need to read Surviving an Affair, AW. Because I think you both need to understand the dynamics of this event more fully. You especially need to move through the self-focused part of this, and into more active recovery ideas.

This isn't an easy process. You can't do it in a year. Hang in there.

PrincessMeggy, YES! Awesome suggestion! I hadn't considered that yet, but it's a mind blowing idea. Thank you...I truly appreciate that...WONDERFUL!

LovingAnyway, I didn't realize FB was signed in, so when I responded to the previous post, it was in her name....so I deleted it, and reposted it under my own log-in...hope that clears that up....and thank you for your words of encouragement. It truly means alot...I feel like I'm learning something here...We haven't gone through alot of the material available on this site, mostly because we kinda just jumped in without knowing how to use the site...but I can already see that there are some awesome things here for us. Thank you.

TYK...Seriously?? Come on man....don't start that again...you obviously can't read. I stated very clearly that I expected nothing from her, and deserve nothing from her...and everything so far has proven she is an amazing gift from God...grow up dude...

Neak....Thank you so very much. I will continue to read your posts with enthusiasm and an open heart..We have grown tremendously this year...and I look forward to the years to come...

Schoolbus...wow, that's a crappy life...I know my life has not been the worst life ever lived by a human, I just know how it has affected me...thanks for sharing your story...and I think you are supportive of us...so thanks for that too...keep posting....

Thank you guys...

AW

AW, I'm glad you liked the suggestion but please understand that my suggestion was only a "small" part of beginning to heal. Please print out the posts that have been written to you since I posted mine. There is a WEALTH of knowledge there for you if you'll grab it.

Do you have a plan for recovery? You've been given some GREAT suggestions to get that plan together and begin to implement it step by step. But the thing is, you guys don't have to do this all alone. Each of you continue to post your questions, your rants, your tears... there is lots of help here to get you through.

The things you state don't match up with the statements and mentality of a truly remorseful person that has owned thier behavior and is seeking to make amends. Nor do they match the mindset and behavior your BW reports in her posts.

As far as growing up: I am trying to grow, and learn, to become a self aware individual, to become a better husband to my wife, to heal myself, and her, there is much work to be done, so thank you for your words of encouragement and focus.

What about my post do you take offense to? Just curious?

What have you done today to ease your BW's pain? What have you done to show her you are committed to recovery, true recovery, that helps HER and your marriage, and hence you.

AW,

Thanks for clarifying the delete. As I said, that's my button...good to know FB doesn't do that. And I understand about the browsers already being signed in...so you don't know until you post who you were.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Please do sit down with FB and map out a recovery plan. Time to act from your highest priority...your marriage...and get some guidelines to follow.

Along with the questionnaires, reading Harley's books, I suggest you guys doing communication exercises. They really helped us in our recovery. We counted that hour per week we did towards our UA time.

I also suggest addressing FB's concerns in writing...where you can write out replies to them...re-read...consider...and dig deeper before actually replying. Breaking our self-deception patterns takes awareness, consideration, respect and holding ourselves to radical honesty inside, as well as to our partners. It's where that freedom you've been craving (IMO) truly exists. You can experience that.

LA

bump

AW,

My point was not to tell you how crappy my life was. It was crappy, but the point was that I do not blame my actions on my crappy life.

I COULD DO THAT.

I don't.

I COULD go around saying, "Gee, I have had this really crappy life. I've been raped. I've been abused. Crap has happened to me that wasn't fair. This gives me sadness and depression. It gives me license to do what I want, and to be unfair to others in my world so that I might be happy in my own world."

I do not use the tragic events in my life to justify misbehavior to others on my part.

I do not use the tragic events in my life to justify trampling the happiness of others on an ego-centric search of happiness for myself.



I believe that having an affair is a very selfish behavior. That it is quite ego-centric, and that it is NOT about the betrayed spouse at all, but about the wayward spouse - in this case, the affair is about YOU, AW.

If you read the materials, you will find that your behavior in the marriage and in life prior to the affair had LOTS to do with why the marriage was in the condition it was in prior to the affair.

But YOU made the decision to have the affair.


Certainly, your betrayed wife did have her role in the marital condition as well, leading up to the affair. It is for her to examine her own role. Here, we talk about YOUR ROLE.

You wonder if I am in support of you. Yes, I support marriages.

But you will not hear a cheerleader from my posts when you are wrong. I will be tough when you need to hear it, AW.

Because the very worst thing I can do for you is to tell you


"goody for you"

when you are NOT doing the right thing.


So I will not do that.


You will not get happy smiles from me when I think you are doing something unproductive.

I also don't call names. I just let you know in my way that I don't think it's a good idea. Generally, I tend to ask a question, or tell you outright.

I also do not disguise myself, as others do. I am a betrayed spouse. I have NOT had a child from another man outside my marriage, I am NOT in an affair marriage, I have NOT failed to post my reasons for being here, I have NOT failed to answer questions about my past history, I have NOT stolen other people's usernames.

Here's my advice today:

I have recovered my marriage following an affair. I am a success story. I have used Marriage Builders principles, and continue to do so. I don't profess to be a "pro" or a "vet", because this is still a struggle for me and my husband. I understand the struggle you are in, and know how long it will take FB to get through this - and I also understand that if YOU don't take the time to be thoroughly honest and above-board with her, you will lose this marriage.

Because what happens is that she will feel like she is doing all the work, and that you are expecting her to "just get over it" or "forget it and move on". And she can't do that, because it just doesn't work that way. "Just moving on" gets you the SAME MARRIAGE you had before - and it wasn't working before. You had an affair because the marriage leading up to the affair wasn't working, for whatever reason, and the two of you need to get into the mud about what those reasons are.

It takes open, honest, straight-forward hard communication to do that. And one thing I can tell from your posts is that YOU are not in the position to do that, yet.

Because you are still defending yourself and your actions.

Until you drop that, and state, blatantly and openly that NOBODY else had anything to do with what you did, no circumstances, no pastor, no extenuating ANYTHING, that YOU and ONLY YOU made this decision, well, you won't get anywhere with FB or yourself.

You see, you were alone in your head when you decided to do what you did.

Completely alone.

Move through that roadblock first, and accept that pain.

It's a lot easier than you think.

And don't let "I'm depressed" creep in as an excuse or deterrent, either.

Just let it sit that you made a mistake. An error in judgement for whatever reason, but an error nonetheless, that only YOU own.

And simply sit with the ownership for five minutes.

Take that time, that ownership, for five minutes.


And breathe it.



Once you REALLY own it, tell us what it feels like. Because what I think will happen, what I KNOW will happen, will be different from what you think will. Then the changes you seek will begin.

Afterwake816 - Do you want someone to talk with who is a believer? Do you want to talk about your relationship with God since you are a "new born" babe (September '07) in Christ? Do you want to know what God's commands are for husbands and wives?

Before you answer, let me give a link to another thread and ask you to read it. If, after reading it, you'd like to talk some more, then I'd recommend your starting another thread to discuss growing and maturing in the Lord, gaining an understanding of what it means to "walk with the Lord.

Here's the link:

What WILL you do.....

I'll wait for your response before saying any more.

God bless.

Wake, you are making a grave mistake by trying to manipulate your wife into any behavior at all. It so happens that this time you are trying to keep her from a good thing, one that will be a blessing to your marital recovery efforts.

But even if it were a bad thing, like trawling online dating sites, the way you are doing this would still not be right. Give her the space to read and learn and grow...do your own reading and learning and growing as well.

Probably she will spend a lot of time on here, especially at first. But she will be learning many tools to benefit both of you. She will be learning that the pain she feels, and continues to feel, is normal and she will get through it if she holds on.

If you feel she spends sooooo much time on here that it is actually detrimental to your efforts at reconciliation, then you can POJA - not manipulate - a solution as to the amount of time, one that both of you can be enthusiastic about.

Get win/lose out of your vocabulary, and start thinking of win/win. How can we both come out of this (or any) negotiation with what we both need?

And grab your chance at counselling with the Harleys with both hands. Though I have not personally done this, one of my best friends has, so I have gotten blow-by-blow accounts of all her sessions. They are the best!

Anyhoo, in summary, attempts to manipulate and control speak to a nature that is not humble. Re-humble yourself first before God, then before your wife. Be meek and teachable. This is the best chance for success your marriage has, and I pray you make the most of it.

AW,

I wanted to bump your thread...you haven't been back to post here...

LA

Let me get this straight, your pastor FORCED you to have sex with his daughter at drug fueled drunken cult orgies?

All so you could get up on stage and pretend to be someone else for a little while?

Did I get this right?

I thought my pastor took the cake by throwing me out of the church, but alas I hand my albatross to you.

And this post helps how? This is a VERY volatile situation TODAY and trying to yank his chain DOES NOT HELP.

Pariah,

Please read his wife's thread (Fireblossom). There has now been some physical abuse involved, police, and they are temporarily apart.

SB

I find it curious that in this thread he talks about FB as a gift from god, but in the thread about MEDC, he paints a grim picture of her being a psychotic, abusive harpy who has cowed him into a life of fear and shame.

The two polar opposite representations give weight to Tyk's analysis. Maybe he will prove us wrong though.