Hey Zip: I feel so badly for you. My H started a "friendship" with a young girl when our daughter was 8/9 mos. old. I would find proof of them talking 2-3 hours (minimum) during the day (on his cell phone) and he is self-employed and needed to be "working" at the time. I questioned and questioned - and he denied and denied - for months. I started keeping a diary and then matching the diary with the cell phone bills and found out a lot of stuff I really wish I hadn't. His brother told me at the time - "don't be in denial" If you think something is going on - it usually is. He would treat me so "mean". Just disrespectful - I would try being so nice and asking "what did I do wrong" why are you barking at me all the time? And like someone else said - I think they act distant because it is their protection mechanism. Protection against what they're feeling - against you - trying not to be too close to you since they are doing something "wrong". He was doing this (even before they actually slept together). Man - the pain is intense. (I am so sorry) It sure seems like that is what is going on - whether it has become physical or not. It wasn't until my H got the OW pregnant did he have the guts to tell me. Otherwise - I bet he wouldn't have told me - I would have just had to "wonder". I understand the just "wanting to know the truth". I begged for that from my H and OW. Never got it - until she was pregnant. For me - and I can only speak for us - it wasn't until HE was ready to start making a commitment to me did anything work. The only thing I'm having to do is not lovebust and try to be "there" for him as we deal with our lives now that there is another child here. I know it seems impossible now, but there hopefully will be better things to come. Unfortunately, I think it is gonna come down to her. You'll have to wait her out until she resolves everything in her own mind before she can speak to you about it. Patience is truly a virtue - I'm glad you're here on the MBBoard - otherwise you would be so lost - (Or I would be anyway).<P>------------------<BR>

I think you are right she is still going through a major process of trying to figure out what she is going through. No one treats a person like this for as long as our respective spouses have unless there is someone else. I think that I know what is going on and that is what scares her. She is not ready to come to grips with this right now. Talks in terms of not having a safty net with me. Can't trust me with her feelings etc. I really think that she knows that she did something wrong and does not know how to reconcile it with me. OM also lives across the street and that plays a huge part with us right now.

Zip,<P>I've been better.<P>Still hangin' though. Glad to hear you are too... do let us know how the counseling goes...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

zip --<P>Sorry for the delay in responding. Been away from office for weekend, and also most of today.<P>Re:sexual relationship -- Mine too is non-existant with my W. Part of that was my own doing (long story), but the distance that's been created in our relationship has made an even bigger gap. I'll tell you this, though. Since marriage consel began, I don't even know how to try to rebuild this element of our relationship. When I did reach out and touch her -- on the arm -- she claimed it "replused her" -- particularly given the fact that I had confronted her on issues such as affair w/OM and excessive drinking.<P>Although my kids no longer go to the same school as OM's, my W's "friendships" with her "best friend" and her husband/OM have continued despite my requests that they do not. She has admitted to seeing them, although she claimed that OM just happended to be home when she went to see her "best friend" and her kids. Knowing about it doesn't make me feel any better about it. Again, her comes the guilt trip and my lack of understanding of what her firnedship is about.<P>Another question for you: Do you work long hours, out of town, or anything that takes you away for extended periods of time? Has she claimed the friendship as being essential to her survival when you are away?<P>Also, I'd be curious to see how consuling is going. We've been to about three or four joint sessions, plus I went to two or three individual. I've gotten the feeling that she isn't real convinced this is working, or maybe that it's just going through the motions to get off her back. I'm considering what to do about that, since we're overdue for a session.<P>Good luck. Look forward to your response.

Keystone,<P>Yes I do travel a lot and do work long hours. She has not told me that the other person fills the void. We have been in conseling since the start of July. I think we have gone to 5 joint sessions and 2 indv sessions. One of these was the same day that I got the phone records so that one was worthless.<P>I think she gets more out of the indv sessions. I really don't understand why the conseler does not press her more. I sometimes wouder what the heck these guys do for their money

Zip --<P>Again, another amazing similarity. I do work long hours (12-14/day, five days per week), and for years spent months on the road. My long distance time has been all but eliminated, but my hours in town are still not great.<P>I found that I created a bit of a "defense" when I left for long periods of time. So afraid of doing something stupid while on the road (ie. affair) that when I returned to town, it was hard to pull down those walls for my wife. Including our sexual relationship. Reflecting back, I see where that may have started the process of our marriage unraveling. I wish I saw it back then.<P>Friendships became a "crutch" while I was away, and most of those friendships came through school related contacts. Hence, my wife's "best friend" and her H/OM.<P>I do feel that they, particularly he, has filled that need. Although she continues to inisist that no affair exists or existed, I'm not convinced. At the very least, it was about to happen.<P>If only we could see then waht we see now!

Keystone,<P>Yeah it is real tough when you travel. I am the VP of Sales for an Internet software and am on the road for a couple of days a week. It is real tough to connect with your wife when you are gone. As much as I try when I call she still seems so distant and that makes it really hard.<P>But yet she wants some of the nicer things in life so we have to work and get good jobs. OM is a stay at home so the time he has to connect is much greater. For us it has always been hard for me to integrate back into her life when I come back from the road.

MOVE, MOVE, MOVe, MOVE!!!!

Zip --<P>Different profession, but as stated before, similar problem. <P>OM works, but his schedule is so flexible that he often has many weekdays off at a time. This allows him to be available a little to much for my comforts. Again, with the kids being close (former schoolmates), this makes time for them, with me being the odd man out. <P>Re: Travel -- Years ago, when I traveled alot, I also was able to take some great amounts of time off. Sometimes, weeks at a time. It gave me the opportunitites to try to reconnect. Two children later, those times became all about family and less (or none) about us as a couple. As the kids have gotten older, their demands (sports, school, etc) become more demanding, and the time for JUST YOU AND W become scarce or non-existant. For us, it has become the later. <P>I trully believe that she does not want to get away alone anymore, and is using my reluctance of years past -- not wanting to miss out on my kid's activities -- as an excuse.<P>Is it possible for you to travel and take your W along? Might you share some similar interests that allow you to work and deliver the comforts that she's accostomed to without losing touch in the meantime?

Interesting conseling session tonight. The conseler let my wife talk a little bit about her feelings and our discussion Sunday night. She told the conseler that she felt better talking to me on Sunday and that I listen<BR>very well. I let my wife talk for the first 1/2 hour. The conseler asked her if there was anything else that she wanted to share with me. She said no that she said everything she wanted to and felt a little more connected with me. <P>I then talked about how I seem unable to be able to speak with her and that there are issues that I have that she does not understand. The conseler said is it OM and I said yes. Wife says we have already<BR>discussed that and I have told you everything. Conseler suggested that we set a time to talk weekly about he issues. <P>Also suggested that we go out on a date. Wife does not want to because she does not know what we would really talk about without getting to the issues. Tough to get everything going unless you can go out<BR>alone as a couple.<P>Over all she was very nice and talking all the way down and back. Says that I have been quiet and not available as much to conseler. Still no resolution to what is going on. Talked about a topic on the way down<BR>about a friend that is having an issue that they are denying. She could not believe what that person was doing and could not face that facts. Bottom line is she can be nice but distant. Conseler pushed a little<BR>more tonight. Don't get the thing about going out on a date alone. We do stuff but not just the two and us and we used to do that all the time.

Zip --<P>Last session, my W said that I seemed to be better, communicating better, making efforts that she hadn't seen in a while, etc. Yet, I felt it was almost the opposite. I said that I felt I was walking on egg shells, afraid that something I might do or say would somehow blow-up. Afraid to touch her for fear that it would repluse her. I brought up the trust factor. How hard it is to trust. <P>An interesting thing came up, though. W asked the conselor if it was odd that the word "love" never came up in the sessions to that point. She never brought it up, nor did I. <P>Reflecting back, I do (did?) love her. It's just so hard to rebuild the trust when you think she's still hiding something. I don't think you can love without trust.<P>Hard to tell what our conselor wants to do, since no apparent strategy has surfaced, aside from cashing a sizable check every week or so. Dates don't seem to be part of them, although I think W would consider it if offered. On the other hand, what do you do on a date when you're already worried that anything you might do or say has lasting repercussions? You just can't pretend it doesn't exist<P>My W also knows that there are unresolved issues re:OM and also potential alcholol abuses. She also thinks it's been talked to death. Again, goes back to the guilt trip.<BR>Here's where the conselor might earn his keep.<P>

I guess time is the key for unresolved issues. Keystone like you I told the conseler last night that I don't know how to act. When I ask my wife if she wants to talk she says no. But if I don't talk I get accused of not sharing my thoughts with her.<BR>You know sometimes I look at this and say this is really so simple if two intelligent people could just sit down and talk everything would be OK. But I guess when you are hiding something then it becomes tougher.<P>One thing our conseler did suggest is that we set a time once or twice a week to sit down to talk about what is going on. That way it is not dicussed every night (which is not good) or not enough (which also is not good). So we are going to give that a try and see what happens<BR>

Hi Zip,<P>I'm wondering what you would do if your wife told you that ,yes, she did/was having an affair with Mr. Mom? And, does she know you well enough to predict what you would do?<P>I think she is in a approach/avoidance type of situation. I think she is "stuck" and does not know which direction to take. Either way she goes is going to be painful and so there is a lot going on in her head with those silences. Unfortunately I think there is a lot of work ahead of the two of you but I think you will have a better marriage when you get through this.

Bonny,<P>I guess they say you always want to know because then you have a starting point to move from. Right now we are stuck in the mud because we can not share what we are really thinking. I am sure she knows that I would be very hurt that is why she can't say anything to me right now or maybe it is not over. She told me over the weekend that I am a good person and she appreciates me trying. We need time disconnected etc. Sounds like a confussed person.<P>The problem is that any discussion about OM brings back things like it is not about OM but our issues etc. So I don't trust her in that respect is that she is not leveling with me. Bad circle that she is not willing to break right now.

One other thing OM's wife is back to work after having their second baby. Maybe that is why things have been a little more distant between us. Considering things where improving over the last month or so

The once or twice a week talks out of session seem like the way to go if both of you are willing. I'd be curious to see if my W and I could make any headway there, although I think it's still to soon. Only seem to be talking about the "issues" in session, as though it's the only conduit between us. All other communications lately have been more superficial, and bascially avoiding the issues. As you said, if only two intellegent people would just talk... if it were only that easy!<P>Re:Bonny. I'd want to know. The perceived deception, the last of trust, etc. I think it's harder to NOT know. Not that it won't hurt to know the truth. It will. But it seems that it is the only way to start rebuilding the relationship. Secrets are death!<P>I'd be curious to see what this "unsupervised time" that the OM now has will effect your W. I forget, does the OM's wife even suspect something is going on?<P>

Be careful that you don't become "hyper- sensitive" to the betrayer's every move, thought and word. If on somedays nothing is said, or very little, between us, its ok. As my w says, we had days like that before the affair happened which occurs in all relationships. Look to the longterm and its rewards.

Keystone,<P>I will let you know how that goes. But it is almost like I am damed if I bring up the other man in these conversations. But conseler says that we need to be honest with each other and that is what I am having the hardest time with. How can you spend that much time with someone and not have feelings one way or the other.<P>OM's wife does not know what is going on and that may be time to tell her. Problem is that I should have done that three months ago when we where really in conflict. Now if I do it might just bring them closer together. So I need to be able to trust OM's wife and I don't know if I can yet. Who knows my wife may be chasing him and he is telling her to back off.<P>No one has ever told me on this forum. Can man and women be just friends? I say no becasue someone always wants more. As for a man this more is usually sex. What are your thoughts?

Zip --<P>First, tanker has an interesting note about not being "hyper-sensitive". I agreed with him. yet I know I'm hyper-sensitive. Maybe since it's all so fresh. Maybe I'll mature enough over time to view it that way. I'm just not there yet.<P>Re:men and women being "just friends" -- I don't know. That's exactly what our problem is. My W's friendship with best girlfriend seems to have been replaced with friendship with best girlfriend's H. This is the OM. Still not certain if it got sexual, but the emotional ties appear VERY strong. I found too many signs that it had evolved into something more threatening to our marriage that just "friendship". <P>My W says that she has always had male friends (true). But, it doesn't seem that they ever got this close. I found e-mails that suggested things had evolved. I still cannot believe that she denies it -- I saw them. In my shock, I erased them from the computer. Either that, or throw the computer through the wall!!!! The phone calls, the references. Returning home early from work to find that OM is just leaving with kids from swin party at my house. Where's HIS W???? The signs are just to obvious, yet she inisists that this is all me, all my imagination. It's just a friendship.<P>Cut to the chase: Do I think they can be "just friends". It's walking a fine line!!<P>Question for you: Do your W and the OM's W have a friendship? Do they even get along and seem to respect one and other -- at least on the surface. Troubling for me (and my W according to her guilt trip record) is that OM is her "best friend". An odd twist-- she used to refer to them as "Jane and John" (names replaced to protect the innocent). The last two years or so, she refered to them as "John and Jane". Tells me something, huh?!<P>P.S. I'm getting more out of this then in sessions. Problem is, work is taking a big back seat!

Yeah I am getting something out of these boards also. But work (I run a sales group) is getting hurt also. Going a million miles an hour with work and dealing with this. Man it can make you age in a hurry.<P>You see I have nothing as solid as you do with the emails. I have the phone records that showed they talked a lot but I don't know what they talked about. What I do know is that I have known her for 9 years and she has never talked with anyone that long. Also there where no phone conversations of any length with anyone else including GF's.<P>So I don't have anything but a real strong hunch. She is still OK friends with OM's wife. We used to invite them over to our house for dinner etc but that has stopped. She does not talk to OM's wife that much.<P>When we talk while I am at work it is always real quick becasue the kids are going nuts. That is why I find it hard to believe that someone can spend over 2 1/2 hours sometimes in one uninterupted phone call with a 2 and 4 year old. But again it was just a friendship that consummed 95% of our phone bill.<P>My wife also has pulled a little away from her parents while all this has been going on. Her mom is coming to visit next week. She knows about the phone calls and told wife that she was out of line and that you don't do that. Asked her point blank if she was having an affair and wife denied it. MIL thinks I should let it go with wife and move on. I am sure that is what she tells wife.<P>But since she lives out of state, I think she is really getting only half the picture.