Even fun drunks are drunks - and the fun wears off, becomes less frequent, while edgy angry selfish behavior picks up in frequency.

#1 indicator that he has a problem with alcohol is his current choice. The fun ended long ago, didn't it - or you wouldn't have an issue with it now...

Yea, sort of. I mean, the fun never ended per se, but got less frequent & more immature & there were longer stretches between & often fun & anxiety went hand-in-hand.

Thanks. I needed someone to help me be logical in this, my time of great emotional chaos. Tomorrow will be better. H can bar-hop, I'll Al-Anon-meeting-hop. (Heh, I made a sad funny)

New text message arrived. It says: "Please tell me something"

UGH, this is so hard. So far, I've thought of replying with "Get bent" or "Come home" or "There's 3 people here who want you to do the right thing" or "I love you anyway"

I actually haven't responded at all, don't know which one would be appropriate or if none is still the way to go...how can I get me better when he keeps making me feel guilty? I DO feel guilty!

I did try to contact an Al-Anon sponsor, but got no answer. I know this isn't an Al-Anon board & I'm sorry to keep coming her looking for help...I don't know where else to turn? And I'm not having the best time doing this on my own!?!

YOU have NO reason to feel guilty. YOU are not doing these destructive things to your family, your H IS. What you are doing is trying to put together a healthy family and you should never feel guilty about that.

What you should feel guilty about is if you take your H back now the way he is. IT IS NOT HEALTHY FOR YOU OR YOUR CHILDREN. And you know this. That is why you are taking these steps. I know it is hard. CHANGE IS SCARY, but necessary. If YOU don't make changes, things stay the same.

If you take your H back now, you and your children will be settling for waaay less than you all deserve. I lived with an alcoholic husband, I know.

It's hard because you'll have to carry a heavy load while he's gone. But aren't you doing that with him home too? I remember what it was like. It was pure he11!

Trust me, stick to what is right for you and the kids. You will be sooooo much better off doing it this way. DON'T LET HIM COME BACK UNTIL HE HAS PICKED UP AT LEAST A 90 DAY CHIP FROM AA.

I personally think this situation should be handled just like an affair addiction. If you have "plan A'd" to the best of your ability, then stay in your plan B and give him a plan B letter and STICK TO IT.

You will never find happiness with your H as long as he is drinking. Period.

Stay strong and keep yourself busy and love on those kids.

Kids are at Grandma's, and I truly feel that's the best place for them right now - too much sugar, Christmas presents, and patience & forgiveness I just don't have, especially now!

So...Mopey...I keep ignoring these heart-wrenching text messages from him? No matter what they say? Is it OK to send back an "I love you"? Or is that getting sucked in? Am I supportive right now, or am I only thinking of me & the kids?

One more thing.....

I would text him back and answer whatever possession questions he has. But be firm that he is not coming home until he stops drinking, because you love him and your kids too much to continue watching him destroy himself and your love for him.

You can be supportive and plan A him if you need too, but only for a little while. The man is destroying the love you have for him with his drinking. At some point, you will need to go to plan B if he doesn't stop drinking.

Plan A is about improving YOURSELF and meeting your H's most important emotional needs. But, there's also in plan A the need to not be a doormat. Your H is just like any other WS in the fog. He is addicted to alchohol like waywards are addicted to their OP. You can be loving, but firm that you will not allow the OP/alcohol be a third party in your marriage. Your H will say all kinds of things to get you to surrender, but don't. Remember....loving but firm in your stance to save your marriage. Alcohol will kill a marriage just like affairs will.

Please read up on plan A and B if you haven't already. I am sorry that I do not know if you have. Keep going to alanon meetings as well.

Julie....I'm not a vet. But I do have experience with this.

I would advise that you read Dr. Harley's article on here regarding "co-dependent" behavior. It is extremely important for you to read the whole article. It helps you see the difference between loving and dealing with a healthy person, and one who has an addiction like alcohol. Dr. Harley use to be an addiction counselor before he started working on marriages.

I have, I know Plan A from 2 yrs ago & can't do that cuz he is out of the house. I can do a Plan B letter...not sure if that'll go AGAINST Al-Anon's "steps"? I'm enough of a beginner that I don't have those answers at all. Tonight will be my 3rd meeting - it's a beginner's meeting so hopefully I'll get a bit more from it. It's weird, leaving was actually his idea, supposedly, as of Wed - I made it NOW on Fri if he chose not to get clean. Hope that makes sense. I'm leaving soon so I will text back something to the effect of "we're not home, you can go get stuff if you want, but me & the kids want you there..."

I might be better off not responding at all. He's going nuts with me ignoring instead of playing in/reassuring/fixing. Thanks for your insight. It just gets so big sometimes, and it's only been 3 days!

Well, I went to Alanon meetings myself and they never talked about Plan A & B in the way we do here. Basically, Alanon is not about what you can do to fix your spouse, it's about what you can do to fix yourself and heal yourself and it's sorta like the plan A & B stuff here.

Julie.....it is time for you to LET GO of the outcome of what your H decides. You might as well put your mind to rest right now. You can only control the outcome of your own happiness. There, doesn't that make it a little easier? Quit worrying about him. Determine what YOU value and then make a plan to get it and by golly stick to it. I don't think you value a marriage with an alcholic for a husband and a father to your children. In order to have the marriage you want, your H HAS to hit his rock bottom in order to exact change.

The PAIN of his drinking has to be greater than the pain he is in now, before he will be willing to change to stop the pain. The pain of losing his family is usually enough for most alcoholics, but unfortunately, it's not for some. If he is in the latter category, your life will never get better with him, but it will without him.

I'm not condoning divorce without infidelity, but where's there is abuse, as in your case, an unlimited separation is certainly in order. Others may feel differently. I actually kinda waffle on divorce/abuse issues. No one deserves to be abused.

Julie, have you determined what you want to see accomplished in order to move forward with your marriage? It would help you be more grounded if you were working from a plan. Do the al-anon groups have any guidelines regarding alcohol and marital separations?

Hi Julie! sorry you are back here, hon. Plan B would be the best plan for you and it does not go against anything in Alanon. Dr. Harley treated addicts for years and this is what he recommends. [he UNDERTANDS them to an amazing degree]

Plan A is a disaster with an alcoholic, but Plan B is best for all. See, the alcoholic is very DEPENDENT on his spouse and usually the spouse keeps him from hitting bottom. He instictively knows this and will do everything in his power to disrupt your Plan B. An alcoholic HATES being ignored and hates losing out on a good enabling set up.

Plan B protects you from his abuse so it benefits you, too.

The others may have told you this, but in your PBL, I would include in his path back 90 meetings in 90 days at AA, and perhaps even a stint in a treatment center to get dried out.

In fact, here is how I would put it knowing how slick alcoholics are:

1. attend 90 meetings in 90 days and agree to attend weekly meetings thereafter in AA
2. stop drinking completely

This is the minimum of what it will take to PROTECT YOU. If he does any less than that, your marriage can't recover. It is important to be CLEAR and FIRM and CONCISE with a alcoholic.

He has lost the ability to manipulate you and is panicking! The loss of you as his chief enabler will impede his ability to carry on as usual.

EXACTLY. THIS is why I am glad you're back Mel. Thanks. This is what she needs to hear and you're absolutely right.

When in doubt, it is best to just ignore him. Any response you may give him, will just get him started. He will fire back at you, then you fire back at him.....and before long you have both unloaded your hurt onto each other, and you both feel worse! Nothing gets accomplished.

ESPECIALLY today. I would imagine that he will be several sheets to the wind soon, and not capable of rational conversation.

another book for your to read: Women Who Love Too Much

Hang in there. Be kind to yourself. Give yourself a chance to grieve. Don't let him suck you back into his pit.

Melody! You're back! You don't know what it means to me that you've posted here for me...and I'm sorry to be back too. You told me so.

I DO still want our M & at times I AM weak enough that I'll take him back...but when I reached that point today I picked up the phone to call an Al-Anon person. And when she didn't answer, I got my things together & went out by my horse & hung fencing in the cold. It kept my brain occupied. H didn't text me again, thank Heavens. I didn't takt the bait.

I will read up on Plan B again. I was surprised the letter was recommended, and unsure if I should do that or not, remember guys, HE brought up the idea of leaving first - I just made him do it NOW. So it isn't quite as cut & dried as I put him out.

Anyway, there is a meeting tonight & I'll be there. Then I'll come back here & read the co-dependent article & study Plan B again. Was thinking of telling him he can pick up the kids tomorrow from Grandma's, and drop them off here. That way he can see them (I can't legally keep him from them, and don't want to start using them as pawns), I don't have to make the trip, and I won't have to see him either. Good plan?

Today is interesting...it's our 11 yr. TOGETHER anniversary, 1/2 will be our 9 yr. WEDDING anniversary. So I'm sure he'll be drinking cuz his buddies will expect no less, but I bet it'll be hard to really have a good time w/o me. I will tell myself this, anyway.

And YES the above was still thinking about him/what he does...I can't help it. But yes I agree now that my foot's down it's not coming back up till I get some real commitment. Again, I understand that may not occur.

Thanks again. Once in a while I will need to be beaten over the head with logic.

GOOD, because you will be stronger the next time. It is an ILLUSION that you can have your marriage with your H AS HE IS. He is not available for marriage as long as he under the spell of an addiction. He is married to SOMEONE ELSE.

But, if you DO want to be married to him, your best chance is to remove yourself from his abuse and toss him some MOTIVATION to sober up. Motivation is GOOD for an alcoholic! Things like JAIL, JOB LOSS, losing spouses and homes, can be LITERAL LIFESAVERS. But if he thinks he can still work you and maintain his drinking, he will do so if you let him!

So, standing with firm boundaries is good for you and in his best interest. This is in the best interest of your FAMILY, Julie. You are ALL THEY HAVE to protect them right now. Otherwise this is going to GET WORSE, I PROMISE YOU. And if you don't remove yourself, you will grow to HATE AND LOATHE him, and then your marriage really will be over. Once you grow to hate him, and being a drunk is the ultimate lovebuster, it is hard to EVER turn that around.

Plan B will protect you from that.


TRust us on this. You very much need to give him a letter. The letter will tell him how you feel, and give him a path back to the marriage. Do you have Surviving an Affair? I will also post a link to a good letter and you can use that template.

The key thing about Plan B is to set up your life so that you never have to interact with him. Set up a visitation schedule in ADVANCE. Get your finances in order. Designate an intermediary and be prepared for him to pick up the kids from your DRIVEWAY for his visitations. He should not be in your house.

So, start thinking about all this so you are absolutely prepared to go DARK when you hand him that letter.

Here is a pretty good plan B letter, although, in your case I would go soft on the problems in the marriage and softer on the sentimentalism. It needs to be loving, but more FIRM than what you would send your average WS so that it gets through the alcoholic fog. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post1143897

And I am so relieved you are going to Alanon! Good girl! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Actually, the letter will piss him off in a huge way because he will not like losing control of you. When he sees he is losing control, he will likely try to intimidate you. I suspect there will be a huge explosion over this, so you should prepare yourself. The day you give him the letter, I would change the locks before you do it.

Melody, you were the first person who came to mind when I came back here, tail between legs. You promised me a year ago that I'd be back here, and I pretended I was being firm, but even I knew then (and so did you, duh) that I wasn't. NOT AGAIN. Seeing my kids - my daughter clinging to him so tightly before he left & "joking" with him about his drinking - my son being angry & leaving a note on his bed that says, "I prey dad will stop drinking & come back" and...of course memories of my own childhood - nuh uh, no way, this ain't goin' down in my house.

OK, so he gets no contact with me, I can do that. I WILL do this, I promise YOU. (And actually, I already promised my kids) I've got questions. Help me out here, this is for real this time, I don't want to screw up. Here's my questions:

He needs to get stuff out of the house. He's still got some clothes here, and the big ol' TV & some other BIG items are his if he really wants to take them. He can take them, right? When?

You may be right about the impending blow-up. I'm back to work on Wed/kids back to school on Thurs. I can handle a schedule, that makes sense actually...I MUST be OK to work though. I go straight commission Jan. 1 & I cannot afford ANY crap - as sole provider for this family I NEED to be there, body & soul. So my question is, should I wait till next weekend for the letter? There is just no way this can carry over to work, my boss already knows & she'll lose patience quickly. Just sayin'

OK well I can't think of any other questions right now. I seriously don't want to screw this up. And I don't want to be doing things that'll land me in court - can changing locks land me in court? What about visitation, am I legally able to set that up on my own? I don't know why I ask, he hasn't got the guts or the know-how to get me there.

Kids - I've been very honest w/them so far. They're 8 & 11. Can (should) I explain to them H & I are to have NC?