TT

Your response to your H's affair was the embodiment of MB selflessness IMO.

And as you know a large chunk of my own resolve to stay when my recovery got sh*tty was to keep the kids lives stable.

Its underrated IMO. People divorce too easily.

I think I am coming to realise that I don't understand Squid at all. I only know the evidences of her thought processes, not the thought processes themselves.

And its hard to like some of the evidences.

Now there's a remark that jumped off the page for me. Intimacy is what I have been seeking in my marriage for years. Of course my W thinks that means all I want is SF <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

These past few days have been pretty cool, because my W, who is driven to be "busy" at all times, slept in with me a few mornings over the holidays. Just yesterday, I told her that was my favorite Christmas present, her sleeping in, me waking up with her next to me. She questioned me like I was spoofing her, or something. Finally, I explained to her that her sleeping in was some of the intimacy I have been looking for in our marriage. I could almost see the light bulb pop on in her head. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If not for me, my W could walk around the house for days, and not take the time to stop and give me a hug or a kiss. She is so focused on "things she has to do", that she'll not allow herself to be sidetracked while she attacks her list. It's just one of those behavior traits she sees no need to address or change. How perplexing it is to be the H of a woman who sees no need for this casual interaction during the course of a day. She is, however, receptive to my hugs and kisses when I take the initiative.

I have often thought that CV should be the poster child for "MB Recovery". CV, you KNEW what you needed, and you continued to ask your H to deliver. Sometimes all it took was some conversation and sometimes you had to bring out the "black mamba" to get his attention. But the facts are that you were unrelenting in asking him to deliver to you what you needed to heal from his A. For that I will always admire and respect you.

Bob, having said that, perhaps you and I (and others) asked for too little from our WS's. However, if I had been as strongly committed to getting my W to do all I asked of her through recovery, I'm certain I would be sitting here writing this a divorced man, because there is NO WAY she could have met the criteria. But, I will say that I never really knew, like CV did, exactly what I needed in order to recover, so I guess a fair share of the blame lies in my lap.

I do believe that my W is glad that I endured what I did and stayed in the marriage. She also believes that she endured a lot from me, prior to her affairs, and we should consider ourselves somewhat "even". Now I don't know how you can tally up all the misdeeds we have done each other over the years and ever come up with an accurate tally, but she seems to be able to do so. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Our marriage IS better. It is NOT all I hoped it would be. There is still improvement. I have hope for the future. All that is better than having divorced, for us as individuals, for our kids and for our extended families.

Like Bob said, staying together for the kids is underrated.

Happy New Year's to All of you!!!

Bob-
I have not been in recovery for a year- so I hope you dont mind my two cents- My D-day has been right at a year and for the last few months I too have questioned- did I do the right thing by staying with my FWH?

I often wonder if there will ever be a day in my life that I do not question- is he being faithful- where is his mind trying going- what is he really doing when he says he is working, etc. But I have CHOSEN to stay- just as you have- my reasonings are simple- he is a good man that made a horrid choice that was painful to me, our children, our family and our friends. MY CHOICE TO STAY- OUR ROAD TOGETHER TO REPAIR THE ALL DAMAGE.

I agree with SD, none of our marriages will EVER be the same, what we all had died the day our spoused decided to cross the line. It is up to both partners to decide the type of marriage that they would like to be in and work together to obtain that goal.

WHY DO WE STAY?
For the kids? - maybe - a stable home says alot- BUT unhappiness in that stable home is not a good role model for children either.

For the money?- not for me-
I could leave him- pay cash for a very nice house, support 3 children just as well as he is doing from child support and me working- and I don't think I would be a greeter at walmart- I might not get to travel like I plan on doing now- but I dont think blue would be in my future

Possible insecurities of not finding someone else?- not worried about that- there are tons of people in this world

FOR LOVE? for me- yes- AND no this has not been my dream marriage- I am at the age you said you might make a different choice, if I made a different choice could I ever really have a DREAM marriage- isn't like 80% of marriages suffer adultery. So why would I leave a man I dearly love, is still my best friend, is still what I feel my soul mate, the person I enjoy spending my free time with- to risk it with someone I dont know as well.

What's odd is I think I hear you saying similar things about you FWW- so if you were younger why would you want to be with someone else? Why do you even ponder in unrealistic thoughts- we need to stay present in today- that keeps us out of those spiraling thoughts and aides in a reduction of anger and resentment.

Today I am satisfied with my marriage, it is not the dream I had when I walked down the aisle 15 years ago- I don't think it was prior to the affair either. That was a bar no one could live up to- well maybe June and Ward Cleaver.

I challenge you to decide what type of marriage you want and talk to you wife about this- what kind does she want. This is something that continues to help myself and my FWH. Defining us and making a goal to achieve it.

good luck
AM

Bob,

By "intimacy" I don't mean SF. I mean closeness, safety with one another.

Maybe by building that with Squid, you could get answers to what you need to know. She would talk of those things that are uncomfortable for her. Because that intimacy makes for a safe place to do that kind of talking.

Just sounds like that type of closeness isn't there, like she has walls, fears of opening up too much. It takes patience and lots of time for those to come down, but they can. But it does require a change on one side or the other in how the talking between the two of you takes place, and what level of intimacy is offered up, and how.

SB

Happy New Year BP!!!!

I read through your post and it's wonderfully open responses, and I wanted to weigh in with my thoughts.

Let's see, hubby and I are almost four years into recovery and it has been a lot longer and harder road then I ever thought it would be,, if I knew then what I know now,, would I? Could I do it again?? Honestly I don't know.

I love my husband with all my heart and in so many ways our marriage is better then before the affair and seperation.I have grown so much as a person, and so has he and we are in a good place but its the ghost of the affair that I am so tired of dealing with. It's hurts and it's guilts and the fact that it tarnished the greatest man I have ever known. My daughter will never look at her dad as the heroe that he once was to her. I don't know if it will ever be "gone", and that is what kills me.

My husband is the love of my life and I want to put it behind us, but... theres always a but huh? Anyway BP I guess this is just the nature of the beast and its part of the package.

I too wonder some times did I do the right thing in staying and working on the marriage. All of our Children are grown so I didn't stay for the kids, I have a good job I could support myself, not at the same level as now, but close and less is more right?? So why did I stay? I love him.

Is it the marriage I want/wanted? Yes most days. I just wish we could of gotten here a different way.

Oh well enough rambling,, Thank-you for the post.

F-26

We spent New years day lazing by the pool and fishing off the dock. Tonight we went to Rib Daddy's in Key Largo for excellent food.

My kids, squid could not be happier. Loving, content family.

And it occurred to me tonight - this is MY doing.

I manned up and applied MB WELL. I ended squid's affair, kept OM away while she withdrew from him. Choked down the insult while investing in her $lb.

I fought the very devil and won, not just for me but all my family.

I did this. I was what my family needed me to be when it was very hard to do.

I am very proud I need to remember when I am focussing on the imperfection of our recovery that we could be a whole lot worse off than this. A WHOLE lot.

Amazing what some time off, with the family, some sunshine and good food will do for the soul, eh Bob? It's often just a matter of perspective. Dwelling on the positives outweighs dwelling on the negatives by a long shot.

Happy New Year to you, Squid and the kids. May all your days be filled with family, sunshine and good food!

Hi Bob,


I am just past the four year mark and your above comments express my sentiments exactly.

For me, well, I made my choice to stay married to my FWH and have accepted that there is simply nothing he can do to make me feel any better.

Our marriage is better than it was pre-affair, but it will never be as good as it could have been had he simply expressed his displeasure with our marriage in any more productive way other than having an affair.

WE are making all sorts of wonderful plans for the rest of our lives together. I, on the other hand, still feel like I need a contingency plan for what I will do if he has another affair.

Maybe I am just too afraid to trust again.

Who

Hi AM !


I've done this many times. Squid won't tell me what she DOES want, only what she DOESN'T want.

She doesn't want anything she considers to be a punishment for her affair in our life - that includes any marriagebuilding.

Nothing that makes her uncomfortable.

And she'll make my life ****** until I stop trying to advance marriagebuilding in our life. Then when I stop she is nice as pie.

Bob -

Honestly, do you think it is the lack of commitment to marriagebuilding on Squid's part that is bothersome to you, or is it "residue" from the whole mess? Perhaps some of both?

I ask because I often have the feeling of "settling for less" at nearly 4 years out. Yet I know Cruise has done much "marriagebuilding" along the way. I wonder at times if it will ever be enough. As in...when will Cruise's efforts reach the tipping point for me to reach a state of "non-settling?"

Also, I am right there with you on the issue of not forgiving myself fully for not immediately divorcing Cruise. Perhaps this plays a part in how I feel now.

No answers here, only more questions. At least this is giving me some structure around which to organize my thoughts/feelings. Thanks for that.

Todd

Hi Bob,


There you go... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Hmmm, that sounds like someone I married (I still insist that she would rather have sex with me than counsel with Steve or Jenn...).

I don't have any great answers on how to move past the hump---I've certainly been less than successful in some aspects of our marriage. But then---it's possible (just barely), that maybe this isn't your fault. Continue to brainstorm for new ways to bring these issues to the table, and perhaps one of them will stick with her. I know that for my wife, the pain and shame of what she's done is overwhelming for her---I believe that she hasn't gotten past the self-forgiveness phase. Burying it doesn't help a whole lot...

Peace to you---as well as congratulations!

Hi K


I sometimes wonder if having a supportive , reliable, faithful H doesn't allow some FWS the "luxury" of extended melodramatic self-loathing. "Lesser" men might require that effort be expended in their self IMPROVEMENT not self admonishment. "we" just tut and pray and get the kids ready for school or remodel the dining room..

Know what I mean ?

Hi Todd !

Well, you're right that nothing will ever be enough to wipe away the effects of Squid's affair.

But Squid's contribution to recovery has been like her contribution to life - completely within her comfort zone.

Squid has studiously avoided learning and applying any MB.

What she has effected is the parts that I have shown her by example or osmosis.

I'd like to see her ask me what she can do to help me heal. To say sorry while looking into my eyes. To tell me honestly how she feels about OM and her A now.

Is that too much to ask ?

BP,, No that's not too much to ask, I'm still waiting for my hubby to say many of the same things. What I want is for him to tell me that he sees her now as the devil incarniate (sp?).LOL,, ain't going to happen, she wasn't. He has told me how sorry he is, he has done a lot of soul searching to try to understand how "it" happen, how he allowed things to cross that line, and for that I am thankful. Basically BP I am thankful for the victories I have and constantly remind myself that I choose to forgive him flaws and all. We can't make them do the things to help us heal, all we can do (imvho) is love them, pray for them, and release the rest to God. (Of course I have to remind myself of this daily if not hourly since I attach rubberbands to everything I release so that I can pull them back and disect them for later use LOL)

anyway just my 2 cents worth.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> F-26

See, Faith , I don't need that. If Squid still pines for OM I'd like to know. I'm not going to leave her or D her, but I'd like to know if that's the reason for her lack on investment in me.

Squid would be scared that her life might become less comfortable if she fessed up, I think. Or she may loathe OM as a reptile now. In the absence of any word from Squid, I can't know.

I do hear what you are saying BP, do you think that she really knows that she can be that honest about what her feelings are about the OM with you, good or bad, with out fear that you may judge her harshly? Or worse yet leave her? Or even worse shut down emotionally?

I would think that would be very hard for anyone to do, to be that vulnabule (sp?), to take the risk that what they may say will/would hurt someone they have already hurt so much. I don't know BP maybe in more time she'll be able to.

Hi Bob:


Yeah, I do know what you mean. In our case, I think a lot of the current marital issues (and there's not a lot---except for the 'big one') lay pretty much in my wife's domain. And it's simply the way she is and the way she behaves. I doubt that beating on her more during the affair would have had any effect other than driving her off (and Steve H agreed with this assessment years ago).

My dear wife doesn't care for personal growth too much---it's hard work, and she's had so many other health issues to preoccupy her time, that I believe that she's not capable of doing it. Having said that, a 2008 goal for me is to see if I can get the two of us working on some program together for the marriage.

Wish me luck---I've let this rest for a couple years... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well here's some irony, K : in 2008 I've been asked to set up and run a marriage building ministry through my church.

Squid seemed pleased to be involved, but I asked Squid gently how she felt about advocating and policing Dr Harley's principles when she so clearly did not believe in them for her.

She shrugged and smiled. Thats her stock answer meaning " I yam what I yam and thats all that I yam " I think there's an opportunity to use this to suffuse Squid in MB, but I'm not hugely hopeful.


Strangely I have decided to back off trying to rebuild our M until I get some sign that it is worth my investment. I've tried to clap one-handedly for a loooong time now. I need to breathe and live a bit, you know ?

Squids a nicer person when I am not trying to improve our marriage.

She seems content with her self loathing, absence of conflict and self improvement and my adhering to Squid-friendly behaviours such as tending Squids lovebank and advocating POJA.

fun fun fun <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Good luck K. Your sit is a toughie and reminds me that while my foxhole is sometimes uncomfortable, others' foxholes are uncomfortable AND filled with manure. I just cant see it over the lip of my own foxhole ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

BP,

I'm a newbie, so to speak, so feel free to discount anything I post, just as we all discount advice/observations that we don't find truth in.

In my few months of reading here at MB, I have an observation regarding BH/WW who have successfully recovered (or in the process of recovering) and those who are mired in some sort of limbo.

It appears to me that the BH's that have successfully negotiated recovery are those BH's who have reconnected with their confidence and improved themselves. In addition, they are the BH's who have established boundaries for themselves to continue in the marriage and were SERIOUSLY ready to leave the M if those boundaries were violated.

There was a reason that our W's fell in love with us originally, and it probably wasn't because we were indecisive, beaten down, weinies (representative of mine and others situations), and when we reestablished ourselves as the head of our households, our WW's reconnected with their compromised feelings for us. They then became invested in the recovery with US, moving forward as a team.

I may be saying this all wrong, but I see WW's as being like some children, in that they will do the least amount required or whatever they can get away with. There was a great thread a few months ago about "Setting the Bar High for Waywards" and I truly believe that to be successful in recovery, as a BS we need to know what we want and set the bar at that level.

The key to it all as a BH is being "READY TO WALK" if our recovery boundaries are crossed. As I see it, our WW's know us better than anyone, and they know when we're serious or bluffing. So for us to be a part of a successful R and a fulfilling M, we as the BS have to be prepared to drive the recovery bus to our desired destination or be ready to pull over and get off the bus.

As a BH, it all comes down to our own self-respect. If we don't respect ourselves, how do we expect our WW's to have any respect for us.

For me, once I had the revelation of just how far I'd slid, and reconnected with my old self-confidence, I didn't fear starting over as much as I would hate myself for settling for less than I could accept to remain in an unfulfilling M. I knew that I could be happy as a single man again ... I'd done it before ... but I couldn't be happy as a cuckold BH.

Obviously, that "line in the sand" will be placed at different places for different BH's and WW's, but until we are willing to establish those personal recovery boundaries and enforce them, then our WW's will continue to exist in some sort of unsatisfying limbo.

MR I was ready to walk for years. But thats a tiring way to live when my personal boundaries were being respected and my kids were so happy and stable.

It was liberating for me to admit I was here for the long run unless there was another affair.

Like K I think I am left with some facets of my wifes' personality that is not conducive to my hopes of recovery.

Even threat of divorce hasn't change Squids fundamental traits, believe me.

* edited "turning " for "tiring"