Hi ! Looking for thoughts from 2-year plus recovered BS's whose recoveries haven't gone as far as they hoped.

In my own case I have described recovery for ME as being "intelligently managing the tension between acceptance and settling".

Now, at 3.5 years after d-day, we are well into recovery, but not much advancement has occurred in the past 1.5 years.

Don't get me wrong - I have more than I could even IMAGINE back on that bleak day in July 2004 when I discovered the affair, but I had such high hopes of a radically improved marriage that would somehow compensate somewhat for the trauma of the A.

It feels like "settling for less" not to keep trying.

Squid has been reluctant to self-analyse or to study and apply MB since day one, but through herculean efforts I managed to drag her kicking and screaming to some level of MB-ness in our marriage. She has a lot of issues I guess.

But I have grown tired of the one-sided effort. I do not want a wife who does MB tricks on demand, because I taught her to, I want a wife who CARES ENOUGH about our M to learn and apply MB to it.

Now she loves me, is a great mom and the best wife she knows how to be. She is transparent in her activities and movements and tries when she thinks of it to meet my ENs that are uninstinctive to her.

I'm not unhappy, but nor do I feel remotely compensated by our marriage for the trauma.

Do I call it " my lot" and choke it down ?

Am I ungrateful for hoping for more when I already have so much ?

Am I "settling" and letting Squid off the hook ?

I'd appreciate any thoughts.

Hi Bob!

I do not meet the criteria for those who's opinions you requested, however, I'd share my thoughts with you and have a conversation about this if you're interested. Or I could wait and hope your thread develops more as you wished.

Anyhow, I read your post, gimme a cookie! :P

All opinions welcome! i have oatmeal & raisin if they suit you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, here I am <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.



Yup, I know that EXACT feeling. Same here. It feels at times like I'm doing EVERYTHING wrt recovery of our M. My wife? She "reacts".



Here's the raw awful truth of it Bob: there is NOTHING that can compensate for the trauma of an A. And I think your W knows that too, which might explain her reluctance to really engage, because she thinks it might just be futile in the long run.

Bob, If you're looking for a timetable for when your W's A no longer colours your thoughts, consider this: it took me at *least* 10 years and lots of positive effort on my FWW's part for me to complete put her first infidelity away to a point that it never entered my mind again, and I know that this time around it's probably going to take longer than that.

Bob, I had a long chat with my FWW last night - one of the first relationship talks we've had in quite a while. I deliberately avoided mentioning her A for most of the talk, and tried to concentrate on what we were doing now. The funny thing is, while I viewed my activities as trying to get the best our of M, she viewed some of them as me finding fault with her and trying to find enough reasons to leave the M because I no longer found her suitable as a partner. To this I replied that if I did not find her suitable, I would not be here trying to recover our M, but it did leave me thinking a bit about the approach I've been taking.

Hey Bob! Good to see you are still around and posting!

I guess I meet the criteria, and I feel a bit like you do. First of all, I was stunned that my W could/would become involved in an A. The shock of that possibility kept me from doing the snooping I should have done when my gut told me something was wrong.

Secondly, my W is somewhat like Squid, very reluctant to engage in ANY plan to make the marriage better. I have introduced many of the MB principals, without saying so, and she has taken to some and ignored others. My W is not about change. She is the poster child for status quo.

I have found out, during the initial MC we did that my W has extremely low self-esteem, and is seriously obsessive/compulsive, and probably should be in IC for a very long time, but she lives in constant denial. I have learned to cope with it most of the time, but it sometimes feels like a real job to do so. Not wholly unlike "caring for someone with a physical disability", but different, with the mood swings and self depreciation.

In addition, my W has never been able to meet my (now greatly reduced) need for SF. It's been an ongoing issue for years of marriage, and is still not resolved. However, I am better able to cope with that as my age increases and my libido decreases.

We have periods of time where we really get along and have fun together, and other times when she gets consumed by the OC disorder, when she can really rock the boat, for reasons unclear to me. That can be frustrating beyond description. Like reasoning with an Alzheimer's patient.

One other point, that CV55 and I discussed at length way back when, do BS's set their hopes to high when it comes to recovery. Are our expectations too high? When is enough, enough? How much is enough? Is too little "really" too little? Do we set our expectations so high our spouses cannot obtain them? Perhaps we do, to some extent.

I waited and waited for my W to break down, become totally contrite, and sob and beg me for forgiveness and to love her and care for her as I once did. Well, truth is, she never did. I still feel somewhat unloved and cheated that that never happened. And if it did happen, it should have lasted 48 hours or more, complete and total breakdown. But she says she loves me?

Is this a difference in "love languages"? Do we just not communicate well? Did she effectively get me to sweep it all under the carpet? Am I still a doormat to some extent? Or is she still so self centered and has SUCH a sense of entitlement that she expects me to love her unconditionally, in spite of the A's, the lies, the humiliation, the shock, the grief, the triggers, the whole bag of sheit?

Am I settling? Yes, in some areas. Is it soo bad I should consider divorce and seek happiness in my "next" relationship? Even after splitting my retirement funds in the process at age 57?

Nope, not me, not now. I will settle for what I've got for it's not horrible, it IS better than parts of our marriage before the affairs, and my financial security IS that important to me. I don't wish to be saying "Hello, welcome to Walmart" when I'm 70, so I don't have to eat crackers spread with my favorite flavor of catfood to exist.

No, it's not what I hoped for. Nope, it's not what I worked my a$$ off for (plan A, recovery, all that). But I have come to fully understand that she DOES have disorders, which are illnesses by any description, and even if she doesn't seek counseling, my vows included "for better or worse, in sickness and health", and so, I stay. But, yes in part, I have settled.

If I were 20 years younger....who knows?

BP - allow me to ASK you directly if you want MY thoughts on your current musings before I offer them up for your consideration. I ask simply because of past postings where you indicated a desire that I not post to you or that you didn't want to hear what I might have to say.

You are dealing with an issue that we all have to face at some point, or even multiple times, during the process of building a new marriage from the ashes of the "old marriage."

God bless.

Hi Bob,

I'm almost to two years, going on 19 months now. I'll do anything I can do to assist you, Bob as your posts are one of the reasons I sought help here on MB....and now it's been almost a year since I registered.

During our 32+ year detached marraige, I often dreamed of the day when I would be cherished and loved like I had read about in the romance novels and booklets. But my H was the opposite with no hope of changing that I could see. (It's what I had to settle with because I had married, not for love, but to NOT be left behind <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> and my multiple efforts to force him to change via MC, IC, books, seminars, marriage workshops, church retreats, etc. only made things worse.)

I honestly thought that getting out of this M and starting over would be the only way I could attain my dreams. So I settled and suffered for 30 plus years...surviving on my AEA's (details in my sig line, chapter 6).

WH had 2 EA's; I discovered the first when he got caught with the second six years later (June, 2006).

My first thought was that I now had my Biblically justifiable reason so get out. I was actually relieved and began to mentally play with that notion, except DS25 begged for us to fight for our family that very night.

Not sure if my giving WH multiple chances has anything to do with it, but I think that when he saw that I was serious about letting him go on D-Day #4, he realized what he might be losing. And he knew that he had to learn how to value/cherish/fall-in-love-with-me in order to keep me. And he has....he does everything you mentioned and has for the last year for the most part. I know, I know....we're still in the honeymoon stages...but I'll take it. Just recently he mentioned plans for 30 years from now with ME...so I think we're gonna make it.

Does your Squid really know what she might have been losing if you had dumped her? Are her 'issues' something that can be treated with counseling/meds like Mrs. RIF's? (So sorry he's on R & R but I'm sure he'll weigh in via email/post when he returns.)

That's my only thought so far, Bob and it may be off based, but like I said, I'll do anything to try to help you find what you're looking for. Cuz you and FH and others here on MB have really helped me change into the spouse that my FWH deems worthy of cherishing/valuing/fallin-in-love-with for the first time. And he's committed and dedicated to proving it to me and the entire world (his words) for the rest of our lives. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I realize that my situation is so unique that it is unfathomable by many. But it doesn't matter because we are living the passionately romantic life I once only dreamed about. Now if I can only figure out how/why, I'll bottle and $ell it to finance the MB BBQ BK invited us all to in Australia in 2010! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Praying for you two and looking forward to seeing other thoughts on this thread.

Ace

P.S. I like chocolate chippers. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi MIM

Thanks for posting


Of course I agree, MIM. I have said previously that those BS who value what they GAIN through recovery more than what they LOST through infidelity are blessed indeed. Those are the "poster child" BS on this site IMO.

As for me I expect no de facto compensation for the grossest insult of my life, but I was hoping ( early on) for some radical improvements in our marriage that would at least give me something to focus on when I wonder if I have betrayed myself in making this huge, one-sided investment in recovery.

I have still not wholly forgiven myself for not immediately divorcing Squid when I discovered her A. A small, foolish but noble part of me believes that is the most dignified thing for a BS to do. I know intellectually that is not true, but emotionally....I can't fully shake the guilt.

Some gross tangible EFFORT by Squid to make my life better at her own expense would be a gesture only, but a GRAND gesture indeed that might assuage these thoughts, if you know what I mean.

This isn't strictly fair, because Squid has HURLED herself into motherhood and practical wifely duties like never before. She is an awesome mother and practically a wonderful wife. Just a pity that those are not high EN of mine I guess.


Mate, I'm not. I am no longer consumed with pain over the A. Its power to hurt me has almost gone now. I have developed emotional " calluses" where triggers have repeatedy hit me over the years. But I am left with an unequal and unsatisfying marriage that I might have accepted in the past but now I feel I am worth more than that.

I won't divorce over it, but I AM looking for advice or examples of ways in which I might be able to drive recovery on with a reluctant FWS.

I know there may be none, but its worth asking I guess. I read K's situation and realised that even after a decade I may not have the marriage I really desire for whatever reason. Thats something I'll change if I can ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hiya SD !


Like a bad cigar the smell lingers for years <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Isn't that INCREDIBLE ? That some folks fear change so much they'd rather have a crappy but predictable status quo rather than a potentially magnificent future ?


Squid has huge FOO issues but just stuffs them. The only emotional therapy she ever volunteered for was her affair. And how did THAt work out for her ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Squid has some plumbing issues but when they aren't manifesting she is far more appreciative of me SF efforts these days than ever before. Its me who has let SF slip out my top 5 ENs.


When I engage on HER terms, Squid and I have a fine time. We're on holiday / vacation right now. When I utterly back off any MB'ing she is fun, confident - also hyper critical of me, which I can't tolerate. There's joy in denial I guess.


I remember that useful debate.
You know SD I don't contrition and increased investment in return for not divorcing over infidelity is too high a bar setting. I don't want blood, just that: contrition and increased investment.

I wonder if the kind of woman that feels entitled to have an affair also feels entitled to make as little investment in arrears as possible. Maybe they are two sides of the same coin ? I dunno. Frustrating though.


Squid was upset once a long time ago when I asked if she was sorry for her A. We were in Nandos too, which was pretty inconvenient for blubs <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Since then when I have pressed MB and recovery issues she ignores me until I press a point too hard then she snaps back with bitter words. Apologies do not come easily to Squid. Never have.


(D) All of the above - check


Amazingly Squid has been talking this week about us retiring to the Keys. She has no doubts whatsoever that we won't be together in our old age. The cynic in me wonders if she wasn't scared by the vision her future presented when she woke up from her OM dream - a state-pension retirement.

Thats OK of course, but I'd like to see some deliberate EARNING of a place in my retirement plans. There, I've said it.

Insert 2x4's here -- >


Squid has personality traits that can only exist because I allow them., But I have allowed them for all her adult life and she doesn't have any idea how to move on without them.

See if anybody tells me " your vows said " for better or worse - so shut up and stick with it" I'm fine with that. Maybe I'm looking for an excuse to settle. I'm so tired of the effort.


Hmm.

Hi FH

I welcome your thoughts. we are grown up enough to politely disengage with each other if we feel our engagement is becoming unproductive, right ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Acey !

Thanks for weighing in !


I think that realization was what made her come back.

She clearly doesn't fear my loss enough to invest in areas that are uncomfortable to her. Squid has FOO issues I could spend a day talking about. She fears but expects abandonment.

She won't invest in counselling.

I have to cut bait for DS10 now, back later !! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey there Bob! I qualify! D-month began almost 4 years ago on 1/8/04. Oh the fun of it all. Remember the good old days SD? Quick threadjack to say to SD that I never did update you because I thought you left MB again and I didn't want to bore the people who don't know me here with an update. Glad to see you on Bob's thread. Bob wrote:

"Hi ! Looking for thoughts from 2-year plus recovered BS's whose recoveries haven't gone as far as they hoped."

Well this part I might not entirely qualify for because in some ways this recovery has surpassed what I had hoped for. Let's review my recovery checklist.

Did H thoroughly dump the OW Beeitch? check

Did he totally get over any feelings/fantasies for OW? check

Has H done the work to understand what caused him to go over to the dark side? check

Is he now protecting our M in concrete ways so I know he will never do this again? check

Did he walk through the ****** I required of him to get through this mess he created? Examples, participate in ongoing MC, work hard to get over withdrawing from me as a defense mechanism, go to the scene of the crime for my healing, read OW's love letters out loud together, etc. check

As good as I thought our M was pre-A, is it better now? Most of it "yes". I feel a freedom now that I really didn't feel before. I think H feels it also. The only thing that took a hit I think is SF. It's kind of like what you wrote Bob.

"Squid has some plumbing issues but when they aren't manifesting she is far more appreciative of me SF efforts these days than ever before. Its me who has let SF slip out my top 5 ENs."

The sexual betrayal was so huge for me, and H's shame almost equalled my hurt, that we did get kind of screwed up. Especially me. The good news is that neither one of us are indifferent, and I believe this is just one more thing that will have to be recovered fully. I'm not as hyper about it as I once was.

SD wrote:

"I waited and waited for my W to break down, become totally contrite, and sob and beg me for forgiveness and to love her and care for her as I once did. Well, truth is, she never did. I still feel somewhat unloved and cheated that that never happened. And if it did happen, it should have lasted 48 hours or more, complete and total breakdown. But she says she loves me?"

SD, my H never did that either. Any crying he did was over his great loss of OW early on, and also the giant mess he created. For a long time I wondered if he really loved me because I didn't get the magnificent Plan Aing that I thought I so deserved. It took me at least a few years to realize that he was giving me all of that in another way, which was sticking with my brutal recovery requirements. These were never forced because H always could have chosen to leave.

Bob, I would say that the last couple of years is where the most change occurred during recovery. Before that point H was still in self-protective mode. At some point he began to get that it was more important for him to help me heal than to protect himself. That is when we began to be able to talk more openly about issues like sex. That's when I began to feel more like a team. That is also when H began to face how his adultery effected him, especially spiritually.

Would I call us recovered? Probably not yet, although I barely think about the A. I was triggered a few weeks ago unexpectedly to when H was such a shi!! when my dad was dying. I couldn't let it go so I had to tell him. We talked, he comforted me, apologized again, and it was over. As are MC has said, some things can't be undone. H can never give that time back to me, but he can apologize as often as necessary if I need that.

The other thing that took a hit is my views on marriage. I'm not sure I really believe in it anymore. I'm kind of like I was before I ever Med in the 1st place. H knows this, even though he still apparently believes in M and our M. Maybe this will change in time. I'm not worried about it presently. Just accept where I am right now.

Anyhoo, there's my update SD. Bob, hope this helps in some way.

Bob, you might find a book called 'Fear of Intimacy' by Robert Firestone quite interesting. It's not exactly a self-help book - more an academic tome - but it's a great description of why people who are damaged by childhood conditions come to have defences that they are terrified to let go of in adulthood.

The book, unfortunately, doesn't tell you how to solve the problem unless both of you are really willing to work on it, but it does give a useful insight into how people like Squid and my WH get stuck in this twilight semi-comfort.

I think the only answer, when a spouse is so defended against intimacy, is to stop yearning to achieve it and start accepting that your spouse is more than a bit lacking in the closeness department. Pushing for it will not make it happen. All you can do is make it clear that the marriage is not meeting your needs and leave the rest to her.

I do think both of you would benefit from a really good MC, although I know you're not keen. We've been going to a phsychotherapist (not Relate) and she's absolutely gone for WH's jugular. None of this prissy mincing around with 'communication problems', it's been straight into 'exactly why did you make those choices?'. He hasn't been able to squirm away from anything. He hates it, but it's the first time in 5 years he's been made to face up to the fact that what he's done is seriously wrong in the eyes of the world.

It's a very good book, anyway

TA

BP WROTE:

"As for me I expect no de facto compensation for the grossest insult of my life, but I was hoping ( early on) for some radical improvements in our marriage that would at least give me something to focus on when I wonder if I have betrayed myself in making this huge, one-sided investment in recovery.

I have still not wholly forgiven myself for not immediately divorcing Squid when I discovered her A. A small, foolish but noble part of me believes that is the most dignified thing for a BS to do. I know intellectually that is not true, but emotionally....I can't fully shake the guilt. "

___________________________________________________________

From what I read in the paragraphs you wrote, those "changes" you hoped for (early on) are more than a past desire. They are a present and ongoing desire - radical changes in the marriage that haven't taken place.

So maybe the question isn't whether you haven't "accepted" or that you have "settled", but if you haven't progressed to the point where you have what you want in this marriage and how/what to do now?


Or are the questions, "Will I ever get there in this marriage?" and "Can I live with it if I don't?". I see you in a point where I was, feeling like I did the heavy lifting and FWH seemed to move along at his rate, in his world, not recognizing the need to change.

That part was my fault. I made it too easy for him to stay the same.

So I changed. I changed in the way I treated him, changed in how I spoke to him, changed in how I acted around him.

And he changed.

We also incorporated lots of talking with one another, although he fought it at first, with virtually every cell in his body ;-)

But soon it came to pass that this talking was the key that opened up the intimacy again. I think what you seek is that, intimacy. She is giving you the "wifely" stuff - being a mom, doing the things around the house - but you still feel disconnected, which sounds to me like intimacy, closeness, her "self" involved with your "self", for lack of a better way to put it.

I agree that it isn't "communication problems" per se - it's the lack of HONEST communication here. It's been ongoing in your posts, since the start. She hasn't really opened up to you in the way you have needed her to, and that's an issue you're going to have to overcome.

I need to have that connection, that closeness, and to have that kind of ability to become almost one in thinking with my mate - a high level of intimacy, which is tough to do if you carry the distance it sounds like you two still have between you.

As for your "guilt" - I don't know if it would have been easier to leave, Bob. You would have always looked back, wondering, "what if", "if only", and the like. We make our choices with the information we have at the time. You can't have guilt about that, can you? Doing the best you can with what you have, every day, making choices that are best for you, your family, that takes strength of mind and character. To get rid of that guilt, maybe some focus on yourself and why this strikes at your ego.....remember, her affair was NOT about YOU. It's still the rollercoaster ride, even though that "timeline" is supposed to have lapsed.


You can make the points to her that you make here. Why not?

Is there anything to lose with trying to have a discussion about your needs, in a way that makes her feel safe that it isn't a discussion about her failings? How about re-doing the EN questionnaire with her? Things change over time. Maybe YOUR needs have changed, and you haven't recognized it?

Perhaps going back to the basics and thinking in simpler terms would help. I do that when I have these days, on the downhill, cogitating side of the ride.


One last thing: Try to avoid "knowing" what she's thinking. You might want to ask her instead. Just be prepared to listen, and keep asking questions that require an "essay" answer. It can be very helpful.

I'd like to think we are, BP. So let me "start slowly" and we'll see how it goes, okay?

Unless things have changed, you are both believers in Jesus Christ. So how goes your walk and your wife's walk with Christ?

So far what I've been "hearing" is that you have both "done what you can do," that is what is "humanly possible." But there is a third person in your marriage who doesn't seem to be being given much time or attention. That is the basis of my inquiry.

For a Christian, the "logical question" is "do I walk alone or with Christ every day and in every decision I make each day?"

So how do you think God "feels" about "accepting" and then "settling" for less than what He wants to freely give you?

Bob, it might be that Squid is very happy now with her 'lot' but that you may never 100% recover from her A. I also ponder on whether I should just have divorced upon discovery but there were so many factors stopping me, not least the fact that I couldn't financially support my children or that we all would have had to move half way round the world if we weren't here as his dependants.

Truly don't think I'll ever get over the A. It doesn't overshadow my life now but our relationship has definitely not changed for the better. It's acceptable; for now.

hey TA !

Squid would genuinely rather die than consult a shrink. I think it would benefit her very much indeed.

I'd even go myself if there was a deal that Squid would also go.

Hi CV !

Much to comment on at length CV, as usual.

For now I will say only that I think the differences in our recoveries stem from our FWS attitudes and personalities, not from anything you or I did differently.

With the ingredients we have we will bake different pies.

Maybe I need to start accepting that ?More later. Thanks again !

hi FH


Well this year we joined a church and have grown enormously in Word and Spirit of God as a result.

In early December Squid and I spent a day at our church undergoing a "steps to freedom in Christ" ministry.

STFIC is a proven framework whereby through conviction, renunciation and recommitment we can root out strongholds within us and rededicate ourselves to God and to good.

It was a most excellent day and I was blessed enormously by it; being convicted of sins I never knew I had blocking my path to God.

I can't possibly write up the whole experience here, it would take ages !

However, It DID present me with something of a faith challenge.

You see as part of the process is a section on sexual sins, and removing the negative spiritual residue of them.

The program leans on prayer that the holy Spirit might convict us of sins that we are aware of and unaware of that may be giving satan a stronghold in our lives.

Squid and i were together for the communal prayer and explanation but we went to separate quiet places to pray our prayers. we did so out loud because satan cannot read minds and needed to know we renounce him.

we prayed :


Then we had a quiet time with the Lord as He identified these sins to us.

Then for each occurrence & sin, we prayed :


Then at the end of the list :


Squid prayed this earnestly, as did I.

When we got home she talked about all the day quite a lot, but not the sexual sin part. That night in bed she asked me to make love to her ( very rare) and was quite emotional about it.

This clearly meant a great deal to her.

I now have to come to a place where I too see her as God sees her. That may take some time, but I think a lot of progress for Squid right here.

God also told me through two unconnected brothers that I need to stop trying to "rescue" Squid and let God work on her a while. So I am trying.

So FH as you can see we are making great strides in our spiritual life.

I think from reading the responses on this thread an elsewhere I am coming to see that I cannot expect the same outcome from our recovery that others achieved because they have different ingredients. MB is a cookbook, not a ready-baked cake.

My marriage and life aren't bad. Just as Squid won't meet my personal priority ENs in my marriage, maybe I cannot expect her to meet my "recovery ENS" either ?

Hi SB

You post too deserves more of as response than I have tie to give today, but here goes a start :

Squid will undergo any trauma in order to avoid doing something she has decided she doesn't want to do. ANY trauma.

Her A is an example of that. She knowingly set off the atom bomb in our lives by choosing an affair rather than face the problems in our marriage, more specifically her complicity in them. She has always been very vocal regarding my perceived shortcomings.

I have been very direct in communication with Squid since the beginning of 2006, after a period of mourning following her mom's death. Her response is to clam up and manipulate me with a nuclear winter sulk.

The longest one I actually counted lasted nine weeks and two days. See she will undergo all that misery to avoid communicating honestly with me regarding topics that are uncomfortable for her. Big K will back me up here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pavlovian it might be but its hard for me to continue to press when my whole family's life is turned to miserable crap every time I press for advance in our M.

I see no way to change that behaviour in Squid. Its always been her way.

I don't need intimacy with her right now, SB. Maybe thats one of the problems.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />