Hi Bob,

Please don't think I'm being a smart alec here.

" Even threat of divorce hasn't change Squids fundamental traits, believe me. "

But, has it ever occurred to you that Squid doesn't believe that you will ever divorce her?

Bob,

I don't really know your situation, but what WhoMe just posted was exactly my first thought when I read your post. The "key" is that your WW KNOWS you will walk and be COMFORTABLE with that decision. Remember, they KNOW us better than anyone ... they KNOW when we're bluffing.

Could you explain this statement "But thats a turning way to live when my personal boundaries were being respected and my kids were so happy and stable."? I don't understand the phrase "thats a turning way to live". Not arguing with your point, I'm just unfamiliar with that phrase.

The thing is, he ISN'T willing to walk away from the M over these issues, for several reasons, the most predominant one being the welfare of the kids, if I remember correctly.

I guess to me the answer seems obvious Bob (complicated by life, but obvious). If you want change but are as yet unable to achieve it, and are unwilling to leave the situation, then yes, you are "settling" for less than what you want. IF what you wanted were important enough to you, you would not be willing to "settle". So, the fact that you are still there to means that what you have is worth more than what you'd risk to get more.

So, what do you do when things aren't going the way you want? You either give up on trying to change them and apply those efforts to something more useful to yourself, or you keep seeking new ways to effect change.

I think that MB ministry seems like a great way to get Squid more aware of and invested in MB. Sounds like an incredible opportunity to do that, in fact, can't think of a BETTER situation to land in your lap regarding her and MB. Seize that opportunity. Ask HER advice on how to counsel people and interpret the material etc. Get HER to LEAD THE WAY in regards to this event. Pretend to be an absolute imbecile if you have to, make her the expert, that's what I would suggest.

I often believe I learn more through teaching others. I hope this to be true for Squid. She will need learn and understand the principles in order to be an effective co-leader- who knows there may be a day that you are late from work and she needs to start without you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I would look at this opportunity as a gift from God, be very glad she is a willing participant in this experience.

AM

Happy New Year! For the past week H, myself, & our 2 boys have all gotten hit with some nasty bugs. I just haven't had the energy to actually post here, but have been reading this thread with interest. I'm determined to finally add my 2 cents so I can get rid of the conversations that are flying threw my head to you fine folks here. Now if I can only remember what some of those thoughts actually were. Bob, I might as well start with what you wrote to me since it is your thread.

"For now I will say only that I think the differences in our recoveries stem from our FWS attitudes and personalities, not from anything you or I did differently."

Bob, I have to differ with you on what you wrote above. You and my good friend SD were the kings of Plan Aing. You both beat me hands down on that aspect of recovery. I was pretty darn good, but as SD has noted, I had an evil Black Mamba side of me that H was on the receiving end of numerous times. In fact, I think I used to get 2X4ed on MB because of it. However, My lovely FWH was not that different than your FWW or many other FWSs I have observed here. Which leads me to what SD wrote.

"I have often thought that CV should be the poster child for "MB Recovery". CV, you KNEW what you needed, and you continued to ask your H to deliver. Sometimes all it took was some conversation and sometimes you had to bring out the "black mamba" to get his attention. But the facts are that you were unrelenting in asking him to deliver to you what you needed to heal from his A. For that I will always admire and respect you."

Thanks SD! I'm definitely not the poster child for recovery. Maybe that should be reserved for those MBers who who have stated they are so in-love with their Ss now. Truthfully I still don't exactly know what that word "in-love" means. I can tell you that I am back to being in-like with my H, and that in itself was a huge feat. He wasn't exactly the most likeable guy 4 years ago.

I did always know certain things about what it might take to recover from infidelity he!!. I knew that I personally had experienced a severe trauma, and that our M had also. I knew that I had to personally heal from this trauma, and that in order for our M to have a shot at recovering, H had to help me to heal. I intuitively knew H had to do certain things that "might" help me to heal, which I listed in my earlier post. You also wrote:

"Bob, having said that, perhaps you and I (and others) asked for too little from our WS's. However, if I had been as strongly committed to getting my W to do all I asked of her through recovery, I'm certain I would be sitting here writing this a divorced man, because there is NO WAY she could have met the criteria. But, I will say that I never really knew, like CV did, exactly what I needed in order to recover, so I guess a fair share of the blame lies in my lap."

SD, I think you, Bob, and so many other wonderful BSs here underestimate just how good and valuable you are. You assume that your W would have dumped you if you had set the bar high. MyR, it was me who wrote the "Setting the bar high" thread, and I really do believe in the importance of doing just that. My H told me at some point during our recovery that if I hadn't of set the bar high he probably wouldn't have done most of what we've done. The majority of FWSs don't want to revisit the pain they caused. Most people don't jump at the thought of looking at their issues. Our defense mechanisms run very deep and began in order to protect ourselves. They just don't work very well as an adult, and especially not in a good M.

This is what I just don't get. Unless you can't afford MC, or don't have adequate insurance, why does the screwed up FWS get to decide whether MC will or won't occur? Believe me, I get the reluctance of some of you BSs to push this issue. I was like you are pre-A. Post-A not an issue for me. H totally "F"ed up my life, his life, our M, and put our kids at risk. If he really felt remorse, and wanted to make amends, then there were certain things that had to occur. Was he uncomfortable doing these things? Yep! Many times I thought we hit the recovery wall and our M would definitely end, but then he would rise to the occasion. Now this H of mine actually calls me out on my sh!! when, for example, I don't acknowledge his feelings exactly right. I created a monster!

I can say 4 years later that I have recovered from the A trauma. The questions that some of you still want to ask your FWS concerning their feelings and thoughts about the OP and the A, I did that many times over. Was that hard for H? Very hard! But it was way harder for me going through his A and this trauma. It took him a while to realize that when I got triggered, and needed to talk to him about the A, it was to help me to heal. It's hard for the FWS because they were not traumatized. They will never get that. SD you said it best in that post about the BS and FWS come at recovery from different directions. Many times I had to explain this to H by using metaphors, such as a crime visctime might need to revisit the scene of the crime to get over the trauma. W also had Steve Harley in the beginning guiding us through the withdrawal period, and a great MC who has helped us immensely. Recovering from adultery is no easy task. I really do believe that only the BS knows what he/she needs to recover from this. Maybe most won't need what I needed. Still, I think it's OK to require the bare minimum.

Then, FogFree and I owe you a huge favor for posting that thread. I originally printed it off for her to read, and it made such an impression that we have now incorporated "setting the bar high" into our normal vocabulary when discussing these issues.

Needless to say then, but I agree completely with your great post here. As BS's, we can't be afraid to "set the bar high" for our WS's, and if they are as committed to R as us, they will embrace the concept ... FogFree is living proof.

Just like your H, FogFree also calls me on things when I don't quite meet one of her important needs, and I appreciate it. It shows her committment to improving our M for BOTH of us, and as a BS, I really like to see her effort.

Thanks again for making a difference in OUR M.

CV,

I, too, owe you a big "THANK YOU"!! I'm the FWW of MyRevelation, and your "raising the bar high" standard has worked great for us. I consider myself a total Type A personality and a highly competitive person, and any time that I can "prove" myself to anyone, especially MR, I love to rise to the occasion. He expects a lot out of me, and I demand a lot out of myself, and it feels great to be able to be transparent and O/H with him.

Bob,

Even though I'm a newbie, maybe I can offer a little insight from the FWW perspective. MR made it clear early on what he expected from me if I wanted our marriage to work. In fact, after he had his "revelation" (read the Serenity Prayer), he almost immediately became again the MR I fell in love with over 13 years ago--strong, confident, assertive. After about a 2-3 week fog timeframe, I jumped into the MB principles with both feet. In fact, one of the best things to come out of MB for us is certain lingo that we use EVERY DAY in our communications.

My question to you is this: what was it about "Bob" that attracted Squid to you in the first place? When you first got together, were you hesitant to discuss your wants and needs with her, or did you openly discuss them?

One thing that I just thought of--is it possible (and Bob, please don't take ANYTHING that I am saying here as trying to stir up *&^$) that she feels that you spend too much time on MB, and whenever you mention anything MB related, she has a negative reaction? Does she seem to tune you out?

Again, I only want you to do a little self-examination and see if the "old" Bob is still here--the one that Squid fell for in the first place. It certainly has worked for MR and I!!

Take care. Please know that I am asking these questions because I would like to maybe help someone even a fraction as much as CV and Acey have helped me.

Oops ! I meant " tiring". * blush *

Hi FF


I spend almost no time on MB FF. I lived on here. 8500 posts in 2 years. Almost nothing now.

Heaven forbid I'm going to quote MyRev and respond...



I agree with these statements---you do have to 'wonder' if the WS knows that you're bluffing. But when you bluff, you have to also be willing to lay the cards down in the end. I can say with a high degree of certainty, that had I tried to bluff (or do a legitimate Plan B when needs aren't being met) during our recovery process (first couple years)---that we'd be divorced. My wife didn't have what was needed to do the recovery work herself. In fact, she's got a pretty sweet deal now---and I doubt that the Plan B/D threat would do anything except achieve a divorce.

Knowing your boundaries, what you absolutely need in a marriage, and how willing you are with regard to the time needed to achieve these are all factors in where you draw that line. I've drawn my line out farther than I would recommend for most people. Bob, you seem to be wondering about where that line should be...

Setting a high bar is critical---really for anything. Who want's to achieve "below average"? This was something that I think I could have done better during our early recovery phase---if there were any regrets on any of my plan there, it would have been to try to insist on more counseling during early recovery.

Bob, I think the ministry aspect might be a way to bring the two of you together. I'm actually cooking up a 2008 plan for me and Mrs. K---we'll see how that goes...

Ironically K, Squid read this thread today. First time in YEARS she read my stuff on MB. Thats positive too I guess !!

WOW

MyR & FogFree, glad I could be of some assistance. Like Bob, I practically lived on MB for a long while. Now I check in but only post if I feel like I maybe have something to say. You never know who will get what from a post here.

FogFree, I just wanted to comment on something you wrote.

"One thing that I just thought of--is it possible (and Bob, please don't take ANYTHING that I am saying here as trying to stir up *&^$) that she feels that you spend too much time on MB, and whenever you mention anything MB related, she has a negative reaction? Does she seem to tune you out?"

It is very common for a FWS to have a negative reaction to MB for a variety of reasons. My H was cool with me posting here, but it was never his thing. He tried posting here during his withdrawal period, got somewhat blasted for his then feelings for OW, and bolted forever. Most of the time he understood my need for support here. However, there were times I'd bring up something from MB and he felt MB was triggering me. He'd suggest maybe I'd be better off not coming here so often. At those times I made it clear that there were certain things that were not negotiable. I'm not a 100% MBer when it's come to things I've needed to recover. Coming here whenever I wanted, and saying whatever I needed to say, has always been one of those things. I never POJAed when it came to my recovery, and I'm sure some folks here might disagree with that approach. You also wrote:

"Again, I only want you to do a little self-examination and see if the "old" Bob is still here--the one that Squid fell for in the first place. It certainly has worked for MR and I!!"

Fog, just a little check in here. I don't mean to be insulting in any way, but you do realize that often these As have nothing whatsoever to do with what the BS is or isn't doing. And often the FWS has difficulty with the recovery work because of their own demons. It sounds like you are moving along fairly quickly considering when your D-day was. Keep up the good work and you and MyR will recover. Take Care!

Does Squid feel attacked or sympathetic?

She hasn't mentioned it, TT. She never speaks of recovery matters etc. Asked me to remind her what some of the acronyms are...BH, MB etc. No more than that.

We'll see in the next few days whether it made an impact within her or not.

She knows I won't divorce her now unless she has another affair, or if our marriage decays to a place where the kids are suffering.

Early on she was moved to dry retching when she found evidence of just how serious I was about moving on without her.

Right now our kids are doing great. Happy, content, loving.

I'd need to be very unhappy indeed to chuck that away for my own purpose WhoMe.

Also I'd hope that my spouse might want to invest in our marriage for reasons OTHER than the threat of divorce.

Early in recovery, when (F)WS don't think too straight, the practical threat of potential divorce is very real and very required. But after 3.5 years of being a forgiving, investing husband I'd hope that I alone was worth increased marital investment, without fear of divorce , you know ?

Thing is my marriage isn't BAD. I'm not UNHAPPY. I'm just frustrated that with some small investment from Squid I ( and WE) could be far far happier.

Hi Bob,

Hey---having Squid showing up and reading is what I would think very positive. I also discussed MB stuff with my dear wife yesterday---that's almost always a big trigger for her. I a -10 to +10 scale, it usually ranks below -5. Last night, it was around a '4', so the fact that it even tipped past neutral was a bit shocking.


I identify very strongly with that. And in fact, I'd carry that through to my wife. If I thought she was sandbagging---I'd be pissed. But she's not. It's easy from the outside to imagine that this must be the case (and sometimes I can convince myself of that too---when rampant 'taker-mania' is running in my head), but I know that this isn't the case.


Yup. Let me be crude here. I'd love to get laid. Is that gonna happen if I use the line "Hey baby---let's get busy tonight or you're gonna get served tomorrow?" I've used lots of fun pick up lines in the past. I just don't see this one having ANY chance of working.


How are you doing with regard to the rule of Time? 15 hrs/week. That's something that most couples have difficulty with, and is certainly something that I've not done, especially in recent years. Part of my commitment to the marriage this year is to up the amount of time that we spend together. I think if the two of you can get excited about the Ministry opportunity---it'd be a great way to make that time commitment, as well as giving you each new opportunities to fill each other's lovebank. My guess is that you'll be impressed with Squid's offerings there---and this will fill admiration needs in a new way that she'll really dig.

Cheers Bob. I'm really thrilled that the two of you have come so far together. It's more than a minor miracle, considering what it was like when you showed up here!

Hey CV !


You are correct of course. We did things very differently.

I do believe though that had I raised the bar as high as you did I'd be divorced now. I'll never know now I guess.

Hi K


Well as part of being "serious" about changing myself, I changed my job after D-day. I was broken after d-day and my boss then 9 A ferocious tiny French lady !) actually gave me a month's sabbatical to get my head straight. Full pay. I'll never forget her for that.

Anyhoo, when I returned I had studied MB and also realised my dedication to work had contributed to making our marriage fertile for trouble.

I went to see my manager and quit. She wouldn't accept my letter, and asked me instead to write the attributes of a job I would be prepared to do within her organization.

To my amazement she accepted my requests verbatim!

I became based from my home, travelled far less and had a single focus for my job rather than the several I had before.

This meant for example, I was able to start " dad's diner" where I get up before everyone else on school mornings and make breakfasts and packed lunches. I get to put a funny face and message on my kids lunch bags, and squid get sto start the day in the "gradual where's my coffee?" way that suits her best.

This hit a couple of Squid's big ENS - family commitment particularly but also domestic support.

Also, being based at home, we were able to take time out during the week to spend some lunchtimes together. We'd go for meals together, no kids, at lunchtime rather than in the evening where it was difficult for us, with no babysitters and what not.

Early on we got much of our marrigebuilding done during these meals, but these last 2-2.5 years they've been UA and RC time. We also took to playing squash and attending the gym together during the day when my work could fit it in.

So in a typical week, K, we probably spend 10 hours UA & RC time. rarely less than that, sometimes more , beyond the 15 hours.


Me too K <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Makes me feel ungrateful for my dissatisfaction I guess ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

all blessings

CV,

I am not insulted!! Let me clarify--in NO WAY was I suggesting that Bob was responsible for the affair. My thought was that for me, when MR reverted back to being the man that I fell in love with, that attitude made the recovery process FOR ME much easier to dive into, and made me WANT to recover. I thought that Squid might be having those same feelings. I realized that I did not want to lose MR and would do anything that I could to save our marriage.

As far as spending too much time on MB, for a while, I felt that MR was doing just that. Now, however, I see that most of the time it doesn't trigger him, and helps his recovery process. I find myself on here lurking quite a bit, and reading some of the stories helps ME. I personally have found that FWS get quite a bit of support and that is a good thing, because most of us FWS on here are here to better our relationships with our BS.

Take care! Good luck, Bob!