Bob wrote:

"You are correct of course. We did things very differently.

I do believe though that had I raised the bar as high as you did I'd be divorced now. I'll never know now I guess."

You know what Bob, I had the luxury of figuring out what I might need to recover from this mess because I didn't have the total responsibility of supporting our family. Recovering became a full time job for me. We all do the very best we can given the total devestation we are left to deal with.

onethousand wrote:

"For the damage he has done to me and for what an affair and a subsequent divorce would have done to our children, but for my decision to give him another chance to make this right, I really need to see some grand gestures. I think that's what most of us BS's need, but it seems to me that there is something in WS's that stops them from giving it. Is it pride, or is it that in doing so they will have to really face what they have done? Are they heartless and unable to empathise? Are they incredibly selfish by nature or just immature? I dunno. Maybe it's just power struggle issue.
I'm pretty sure that if I had an affair, I would beg, grovel and feel unworthy. I would do the grand gestures."

Nah! If you had an A you'd probably do exactly what you have witnessed with your H and what you witness here. I think we BSs have difficulty realizing that a person who has an A is "really" screwed up. Then when we, the BS, go through the ****** of Plan Aing (for those of us who did that) and we do expect and desire those grand gestures. The problem is that we are still dealing with one screwed up person. Most FWSs are incapable of leading the recovery effort. The FWS doesn't have a clue how to get out of the dung pile they put the M in.

AN wrote:

"The thing is that most of the time the WS finds it impossible to understand the extent of the damage they have done."

You're right AN. I think a FWS can open themselves up enough to see the damage and to feel horrible about it. However, a FWS, just like anyone who hasn't experienced being a BS, will not be able to understand through knowing on a feeling level what this does to a person.

Two days ago H heard on the news that someone we used to know was randomly beaten up badly by masked teenagers. H and I were eating dinner and he was talking about this, very upset by the cruelness of this act. All of a sudden I'm feeling triggered and don't even want to finish eating. Why? Because at that moment I remembered that H was one of those masked teens. He and OW beat the crap out of me, and then at some point the masks came off and I saw my assailants were people I knew, and more importantly someone I loved and trusted. That is what makes infidelity such a difficult thing to heal from. We knew our attacker, and we decided to try and heal with that person. How totally bizarre! And then we all are scratching our heads at the difficulty of this recovery process.

Bob wrote:

"Yet 90% of that happiness is a result of MY work. Regardless of the effect of it, I want to see some heavy lifting from Squid in this marriage.

Writing this I can see perhaps its the GESTURE of Squid valuing me and our M enough to invest uncomfortably in it that is important to me, not the marriage improvements that might result from that."

Right on mate! At some point the FWS has to do some of the heavy lifting. The FWS might not be able to feel the damage done to us, but they need to get it enough to help us to heal.

Ace, just a comment. Infidelity is a kick in the gut to any BS, regardless of the state of the M pre-A. Yet, I think maybe the fall for the BS is even greater when the M was pretty good pre-A. JMHO!

I totally see how that could be true, CV. I don't mean to minimize anyone's pain. My first d-day was bad enough but the subsequent ones (pre MB) nearly left both of us suicidal.

I have never realized that by having so few memories of 'happy times' that recovery from such a devastation would be a little easier than not. It's very enlightening and I'm grateful for knowing this....it's almost like another missing piece of the puzzle for me.

Thanks,

Ace

Hey BP,

I am glad you enjoyed your family vacation,,sounds like a good time was had by all.

You posted that squid had read some of this thread,,has she read any further and has she said anything about it??

She read it faith, responded by being shocked into silence as far as I can tell. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When we're not jet lagged from travel I'll offer Squid to discuss her thoughts properly.

Just b4 Christmas, we had a call from friends we had had in HK in 1985/6. My H had gone to school with this guy and had contacted him when we went to live in HK in 1985. They left HK soon after and we heard they had split up but had lost contact with them. Turns out they now live in the next suburb and have done for a number of years and frequent all the same cafe's and restaurants as we do, but if we saw them, we failed to recognise them.

We went to dinner at their house just before Christmas. Their story is: He was playing around on her in HK (she is a Filipino, the same age as him and had given him 3 children and had been a devoted wife and mother) She got distressed by his 'playing around' and left him. He was stunned. She was attractive - so when someone else came along, she took the opportunity to leave her unfaithful husband. She thought she was madly in love with the new guy. She married him and they had a child together. My H's old school friend realised what he had lost when his options to keep the marriage were gone. He eventually married again too.

Both their new marriages were unsuccessful. The initial couple used to get together for their kids at Christmas but over the years they both struggled with unhappy marriages. Then in 2003 they sat down and discussed their unhappy lives and decided to leave their spouses and start seeing each other again. They decided to remarry but only because of the children who wanted them to be together again as a family. (the kids were early 20's by then)

Her comments to us were that she doesn't believe in love anymore. Her experiences with love and marriage have shown her how unreliable love is. She wanted to be back with her first husband, but not for SF or love or romance or to have a great marriage. She's done with such ambitions. She just wants her husband around to enjoy a simple life with her and the family all together, and to this extent, she looks after him very well (I don't know if SF is part of the package) . He seems VERY content to have her back and to be together as a family again. They are renting a house because the broken marriages have cost them their financial security. (his initial playing around cost them heaps both financially and emotionally)

Bob, you haven't settled. You have simply tried to work out how to live your new marriage with less than ideal prerequisites. Squid's fall from grace has made her more difficult to love over the long haul - and maybe in order for you to enjoy those loving feelings for her you want her to make more effort towards you, so you don't have to try so hard to feel loving feelings for her.

I am a lot better than I was, but as a poster said on the last page, if we have a few things go 'belly up' then I can start feeling hostile towards H. All the slack he was cut for 30 yrs is used up. I don't want to be dealing with any inadequacies on his part, unless I'm feeling exceedingly generous that day. Fact is that he has plenty of inadequacies, as do I - and we can both get a bit disenchanted with recovery (or is it just marriage?). I really feel that all of this would have been the same without an A in our history, but with an A there, we are more fragile, more unsure of ourselves and sometimes just plain confused about what we should be feeling. Before the A, we were allowed to have days/weeks where we weren't strongly in love... experience had shown us that these phases came and went and it wasn't anything to worry about. Now if H and I have a week where we don't connect (we had overseas visitors for christmas - with no time for bonding) - then I particularly start to feel uneasy and I start to question our relationship yet again.

AN

Hi Bob! Glad to hear you had a good vacation. I'm sorry that you are still struggling with Squids refusal to confront her "wound" as Pep used to call it.
I've come to believe that most of us won't change unless our back is against the wall. I know that you want her to invest in the relationship because of her own desire, but she really has no reason to. She has everything she wants right now, and got it all without stepping out of her comfort zone.
And you say that you won't divorce her, but the resentment in your heart doesn't go away either. You manage to stuff it away for a time, and rationalize your way out of your discontent, but it keeps coming back.
Perhaps she should be pushed a little more that you feel comfortable doing....

Not a day goes by that a man doesn't have to choose, between what he wants, and what he's afraid to lose.
Robert Cray

Ding ding ding !

Reading this makes me recognise that Squid may not be investing as I would like but she does not indulge in "chit" with me anymore.

Almost all the lovebusters she used to do have been stopped.

IB has almost stopped, DJs only happen couple of times per year" rarely, instead of daily as once was.

Hmm. Why had I not recognised that ? Squid has quietly and increasingly dealt with her LBs over the past couple of years.

This holiday for example she could hardly have avoided LBs any better and it helped create a lovely environment for our vacation.

I need to look detachedly at our marriage - there's clearly more improvement than I had been seeing.

Regarding your friends, I completely recognise that situation. Companionship , shared history, kids and practicality aren't good reasons to GET married, but are pretty fine reasons to STAY married (or to remarry as in their case).

On a thread by "annointed" she asks if its wise to have a child with a FWS.

I could write " we're too old" or "our family is complete" but in truth I would NEVER choose to add another child to our post-A situation. NEVER. Even though Squid is transparently trustworthy now.

That says a lot. I'm learning a lot from these threads just this week. Some of it isn't very nice, but its all useful.

Thanks again AN.

Hi starting ! What a blast from the past ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Thanks JUST what Squid is doing. Nail on the head right there.

How are you doing ?

I'm doing well Bob. Kids are wonderful, the oldest two are very appreciative of my personal struggle to keep the family together.
Most days I am content. I still hope we can get to a passionate, intimate relationship, but I am happy with where we are today.

I don't know why, but this was one of those things that struck me as I read it!

I suppose the only difference to someone "beating the crap out of you" and cheating on you is that there really is no intent to hurt a BS by cheating on them. The hurting is a clumsy oversight on the part of the WS, during his mad scramble to put himself first.

Bob.... I wouldn't have children again with anyone. Mostly because I now view marriage as too tenuous to have to divide my attention more than one way. I see so much devastation in relationships that I look back in sheer wonderment that I managed to get husband thru the child rearing years without him needing his EN's filling elsewhere. I look at some of the young mothers in the change rooms of the swimming pool and cringe at their bulging thighs and tatty underwear. Clearly they don't know that danger lurks and they don't have the luxury to be so relaxed.

In all seriousness though, I believe that we BS will never recover the relaxed attitude we had to our marriage and that is part of what we have to accept. I don't think we should be expecting a super duper marriage with bells and whistles. We have to differentiate between what is normal and what we are viewing thru the conceptual lense of a spouse who was once betrayed. It's hard... I'm 5 yrs 3 months out and on medication to stay kool, but still I angst about whether we are ok and whether I really care if we aren't?

AN

BP when I was in IC dealing with my issues, one of them being I was not letting go of the affair, and I discovered that one of the reasons I held on to it was for self defense, if I truly let go then I could become vulnable again to hubby and that meant he could hurt me again. It woulds almost always flair up when Hubby and I were doing the best, almost like I would start to feel "safe" again and suddenly bam the emotions come flooding back and I'd be right back in the middle of the hurt and the pain all over again.

I don't know if I am making any sense here, but, basically could the reason you haven't recognised Squid's efforts is part of your self defense system, your way of not letting her get too close??

Thats a big question with a lot of issues around it.

Squid has made efforts but they have been in areas that are comfortable to her until this recent "LB reduction" thing.

I think I need to re-read my old posts.

3 years ago I wrote :


When I come to reread that and assess our marriage in the light of your comment it is interesting and thought provoking.

Squid's practical recovery has been very deep. She is a very good mom and the best wife she knows how to be in a "domestic support" and "family commitment" way.

I can't fault that.

Her PERSONAL recovery has progressed far more than I previously thought. She has examined many of her FOO issues in the past couple of years, slowly but surely. She is no longer so needful of me and others to complete herself.

Maybe she is also starting TRAUMATIC recovery - helping me by avoiding LBs such as IB, DJs and not baking me up with the kids ?

I need to have more of a think. Your post is very thought provoking, thanks.

Right now my answer is that I have no desire of ever being vulnerable enough to anyone ever again that I am destroyable by betrayal, that includes Squid.

I don't see what benefit such dependence would bring. What disturbs me a little is that I know Squid really wants me to need her and depend on her. Am I protecting myself or punishing her ? Both perhaps ?

[

Right now my answer is that I have no desire of ever being vulnerable enough to anyone ever again that I am destroyable by betrayal, that includes Squid.

I don't see what benefit such dependence would bring. What disturbs me a little is that I know Squid really wants me to need her and depend on her. Am I protecting myself or punishing her ? Both perhaps ? [/quote]

I feel/felt the same way, there was now way in he!! I was ever going to let Hubby hurt me again. but I can't be in a relationship like that, I want it all, I want the trust and faith back. I needed to be able to feel safe with him again,,he is the great love of my even now. Yes and punishment is another issue I had/have, sometimes it seems like he got off fairly easy, sometimes when he looks me in the eye and says he's happier then he has ever been in his life,, I think gee isn't that nice, and all it took was you nearly destoring me. oh yeah isn't love grand?? LOL,

Good Luck BP... F-26 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I will never trust anyone blindly again.

I DO trust Squid, but I do not depend upon her to complete myself as I once did. We DO love each other, whatever that means now.

Maybe its a guy thing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Glad you're doing OK faith !

I hear ya BP,, what can I say I am a hopeless romantic <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

:::: one of them being I was not letting go of the affair, and I discovered that one of the reasons I held on to it was for self defense, if I truly let go then I could become vulnable again to hubby and that meant he could hurt me again. It woulds almost always flair up when Hubby and I were doing the best, almost like I would start to feel "safe" again and suddenly bam the emotions come flooding back and I'd be right back in the middle of the hurt and the pain all over again.

We had exactly the same deal happening to us. e.g. peace and contentment triggered me. I thought I had to be creating something more special and interesting than just living our lives together.

an

Nail / head.

^^^bumped for sh0cked^^^

Time to stop looking for anything "except" where you've been and will never be again old friend.

Your Lot has improved, you've just forgotten how it was before <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I haven't read a post in years but that you're still here tells met that.

Oz