Heartpain - this is what everyone does, or should do. The idea is use advice that you think will help your marriage and ignore the rest.




Now this statement is exceedingly condescending and judgmental, a personal attack on people who's opinions and advice you might disagree with. "Ignoring" opinions and advice that someone doesn't think is helpful to their marriage recovery is not the same thing as saying the offerer of the advice is "bereft of intelligence."




Illegitimi Non Carborundum
"Don't let the ****** grind you down"

According to Safire's New Political Dictionary, this is "a pseudo-Latin phrase meaning 'don't let the ****** grind you down'. Small signs and plaques carrying this message have appeared in U.S. business offices and army posts for at least a generation, since General "Vinegar Joe" Stilwell used it as his motto in World War II. Carborundum is a trademark for silicon carbide, a leading commercial grinding substance...In politics, the motto was popularized by 1964 Republican nominee Senator Barry Goldwater, who hung the sign in his office." (--from Safire's New Political Dictionary, p. 353)

Source: Safire, William Safire's New Political Dictionary : The Definitive Guide to the New Language of Politics Random House, New York, 1993. (R 320.03 Sa1)


One might say that calling other people "******" is "not polite." But I'd agree that the sentiment of not letting others grind you down is applicable to everyone on all "sides" of an issue. It's a "mental health" thing.

It's also something to consider when someone just "buries their head in the sand" or "digs in their heels" and refuses to even "consider" that changing their mind or opinion on something might make sense (see "Wayward Spouse" and "FogSpeak" as examples).

2long - I read that you are getting close to punching the "outta here" button.

Happy trails 2 you.

May you have fun and enjoyment in your travels to the Ou2r Limits.

My response was to 2long and he can decide for himself the quality or lack thereof of my missive to him.

Politeness is as politeness does. There isn't much of it around here anymore, so you will have to excuse me if my patience is worn thin, after all, I have no "guiding light".

I understand.

Rationalization and justification for saying and doing whatever you want while denegrating someone else's right to do the same.

Something familiar about that stance....'relativism' I think the word was.





Absolutely he can. As he can with what I said.

2long and I have had some "knock down-drag out fights" in the past (primarily in the evolution/creation arena), but he is a very intelligent man and not in the least "bereft of intelligence." He may consider me to be "bereft of intelligence," but I don't think that of him even though we disagree strongly on some issues. We also agree on a lot of issues too.

But you are entitled to your opinion too.

2long's "wakeup song" for 2day:

Genesis, "The Cinema Show"

"Home from work our Juliet
Clears her morning meal
She dabs her skin with pretty smells
Concealing to appeal
'I will make my bed'
She said, but turned to go
Can she be late for her Cinema show?
Cinema show?

Romeo locks his basement flat
And scurries up the stair
With head held high and floral tie
A weekend millionaire
'I will make my bed
With her tonight,' he cries
Can he fail, armed with his chocolate surprise?

Take a little trip back with Father Tiresias
Listen to the old one speak of all he has lived through
'I have crossed between the poles, for me there's no mystery
Once a man, like the sea I raged
Once a woman, like the earth I gave
And there is in fact more earth than sea'

A brief commentary:

What's waning around here continues 2 be compassion, in my view.

Thankfully, my original reason for coming here is no longer the massive cloud over my head that it once was. Thankfully, also, when it was, I felt that there was much more compassion in the form of the people who posted 2 me when I was so distraught. You know who you are.

JL, you were the first 2 post 2 me. It was a pretty "nuts and bolts" post, 2 be sure, but it 2k what I was doing (crummy LBing non-plan A stuff) and still offered advice in a compassionate manner. It may not have seemed like much at the time, but it helped me level off when I really needed 2.

I am just as guilty of posting 2 controversial OT threads, or getting sucked in2 arguments over implementations of the MB *METHODS (not principles... sorry), or detailed assessments of whether I followed them or have a right 2 call my M "in recovery". I guess I have some rubbernecker tendencies of my own 2 overcome.

At some point, I think the combination of less true compassion and my own focus on the controversial or argumentative threads, I crossed a point of diminishing re2rns - where my contributions (that used 2 make me feel so good when I could "pay foward" the kind of help I received when I needed it so) have been counterweighted by the drowning sensation I feel when I just can't tear myself away from an argument and get my sorry beautox back 2 work! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I take full responsibility for my part in the negativity - certainly in my feelings as a result of it. After all, I could simply not post. (ac2ally, I think I'm getting a little better at self-restraint when I feel like yelling something - but that probably isn't obvious <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />).

I really thought I'd had it last night, after being just short of labeled a baby-murderer [edited out a label - see, I can restrain myself some!] on medc's thread.

Maybe I ought 2 just bail. But I do still have interesting convos with friends I've accumulated over the years here - the ones that are still here, that is.

And so it goes...

-ol' 2long

I couldn't agree more, 2long. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

And, FWIW, I really hope you continue to stick around for a while. You seem like a nice guy, and we can never have enough of those around here.

I like that you treat others here with respect, even if their opinion might differ from yours. I'm always interested to hear your perspective because it seems to come from good intentions.

Besides, I've just now gotten to the point I can fluently read 2's in text. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Lori

These boards have "progressed" from a comfortable two lane highway where nearly everyone drove with purpose, yet defensively enough to avoid ugly pile-ups. Today, with the increased traffic, the boards are more like a superhighway, at rush hour, with a lot more honking, one-fingered salutes and "road rage". With that said, there is still a lot of help here for people who can quickly learn to navigate the traffic with eyes wide open and some discretionary judgment.

2long, I believe with all the curtain calls, you might be losing some weight! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

All:

I'm pasting a post I had originally put in bigpic2re's thread, about the infamous "pic2re of RM", so as not 2 detract from bp's sitch.

People have asked me about the pic2re, and I've not wanted 2 take the time or risk putting 2much detail on the forum. So, here it is from last night:

Hm...

I thought people would be falling all over one another and just dying 2 find out
about the legendary "pic2re".

I got home from work about an hour ago, but I had 2 nuke and scarf a chicken pot pie
(spousal unit and daughterial unit are working out of town until Sa2rday) and then
go hunting for a ruler with 32nd of an inch divisions on it. The pic2re of Rat Meat
is that small.

As far as it's "prominently displayed" status: I had 2 move 4 overlying cards and
photos out of the way 2 even find the darn thing, but I found it. It's about a an 18
year old pic2re, maybe more, taken when RM was a pathetic little boy of 25 or so.
Now, of course, he's a pathetic little "man", but thankfully he's out of our lives
and has been for years now. My W last saw him in person about 3 and a half years ago
while on a trip for work, at his workplace with others around. He's one of about 15
people and a dog standing in front of a field office trailer, in a snapshot taken by
my W. When I complained about the pic2re, I informed her for the first time that I
had discovered what he looks like from a website he created for his business about
this time last year. I told her that I find it extremely offensive.

It's still there, but we've talked about it and compared it 2 the issue with her
sister (and mother, who supported the suit against us) in the wedding photos that
bothers my son-in-law so much. My DD explained 2 her H that she has fond memories of
her grandmother (but not her aunt) and so she doesn't just want 2 throw the pic2res
away or edit them out. For my son in law, he obviously has little memory of her
grandmother when we all got along (we were very close up until this all started a
year and a half ago).

My W explained 2 me that she feels similarly about the pic2re with RM in it, because
it has other people she used 2 work with in it that she hasn't seen in years, and
she has so few pic2res from those "good times" on those crews.

Obviously, I don't think there's much similar between the 2 photos or si2ations, and
I told her that. But like contact, it will be far more meaningful if she chooses 2
offer that pic2re up like an Aztec sacrifice of her own accord than if I make a
demand that she do so, or I burn it over a pile of giant sequoia logs marinated in
napalm for 6 weeks.

And so, while the pic2re isn't gone (and frankly, if it disappeared without a word,
I'd wonder where it had been moved 2), it has moved from "prominence" on her
bulletin board (before I told her about it, it wasn't buried behind other photos and
cards) some months back (I honestly don't remember when that was, it's been so
unimportant 2 me).

Similarly, somewhere in her stuff there are reprints of a research paper that he
coauthored with her and that I provided technical assistance on - I'm listed in the
acknowledgments. That was published in a special issue of a journal of her research
field (not mine) on which she was guest editor of the volume. It was written and
published a long time ago, around the time their first A had ended, he moved 2
states away, and 5 years or so before she hired him as a consultant and the A
started again. I didn't find out about the first one, but Mrs Meat (now divorced and
remarried herself) had, and apparently made them move. She never told me about the
A.

I've seen RM once, about 18 years ago, at a party with his W and new baby boy. That
was probably just prior 2 the first A by about a year. I didn't remember what he
looked like, as there probably weren't more than 2 or 3 words between us at the
party.

I spoke 2 him on the phone, at the urging of my W, while she was putting that paper
2gether. I remember thinking 2 myself "what a timid little dweeb" because he seemed
2 be afraid of me. Of course, I didn't know he had a reason 2 be. And of course, my
W was probably trying 2 justify her desire 2 remain friends and colleagues after Mrs
Meat had made them move away.

I've thought about discrediting the paper by publishing a retraction or a rebuttal
for my contribution. I have seen it in the last few years, somewhere. Can't remember
where. In retrospect, I had 2 have known we weren't "doing well" at the time,
because I recalled, as I re-read the paper, that I "helped" because I wanted 2 help
her in hopes that we'd get closer. Of course, without truthfulness and honesty, we
didn't. We couldn't have.

His portion of the paper amounts 2 "statistical analysis of highly subjective
interpretations" and should probably have been a separate submission 2 the "Journal
of Irreproducible Results". It's honestly that bad. But as far as rebutting the
paper or printing a retraction is concerned, I don't need 2. As my scientist friends
here know, bad science that isn't quite bad enough not 2 be rejected will
nevertheless die a quiet death. Because in the last 12 years or so, I know of only 2
(count em' TWO) times that I'm aware of it being cited by someone other than my own
W (and then, only in corporate "gray litera2re" reports).

Don't get me wrong, my W's contribution has merit, but she's published that kind of
work elsewhere, so that paper can die.

It's still in her vita. I may ask her 2 remove it, or just drop it off the list
after a certain time (I don't keep all my papers in my resume - there's no room
anymore, and people really want 2 know what I'm doing NOW, not so much what I did 15
years or so ago). But it might ac2ally be of some value 2 keep the reprints around
as a reminder of just how bad even our own science can get, if we try 2 use the
peer-reviewed litera2re 2 justify an A.

Oh, and RM's website has his resume on it. It's his own company website, and he
lists the reference as "coauthored a paper on ____"

That's phenomenal in its patheticity!

Okay, back 2 bp's sitch.

I hope we can stop getting our bowels in an uproar over that silly photo!


I'll deal with the pic2re.

-ol' 2long

2long,

Thanks for posting "The Rest of the Story", although I find very little contained therein discussing the issue of why the pic is still around, why you're WW wants to hold onto it, or why you are comforatable with that situation.

As a fellow BH, I would find this situation to be intolerable, but admittedly we are all wired differently.

I read another post from want2stay on trytoohard's thread that read in part:



In addition to those thoughts, I think there are also different levels of recovery, and different levels of BH's responses to their WW's As, and it is up to us to evaluate any advice we may receive as to how it applies to our own situation and our own personalities.

I view your situation much in the same light as I view K's, and neither are particularly relevant to what I've experienced or what I have found to be successful. It doesn't make either situation "right or wrong" (remember I am NOT a black & white type of person), just different people, dealing with different circumstances, and different personalities, with different tolerances.

Back when I was first facing the prospects of recovering from my FWW's A and seeking direction here, I had to ask some posters NOT to post to my threads, because I was finding their advice counter-productive to where I wanted to end up. I don't doubt their sincerity, but they were coming from a compeletly different perspective, probably not unlike where you and I find ourselves now.

Therefore, if you are content with your current status, who am I to question how the two of you choose to live your lives. We all make our own value-judgments for ourselves and those we choose to interact with.

2long, I like your admission of addiction. I'm not very attached to this board though I've been on a little more than usual recently. It's just a way to spend idle time. Or put off chores. (ETA: If I'm posting to someone in an actual situation I take it seriously.)

I don't see the attraction of those ridiculous screaming match threads though. I like to argue, but what's the point? To have people read your mind and take everything you write personally?

Sometimes I imagine certain posters are actually performance artists, and a bunch of Brooklyites are sipping wine and reading it all on a giant projection screen in a warehouse.

I'd go to that show! Nah, not really. Maybe once.

GC

If yer talkin' 'bout me, GC, you need to change 'wine' to 'a good single malt Scotch'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


You know, I was going to post on bp's thread something possibly applicable, but when I saw the the level of attacks, I decided not to.

My W's A began between friends. I won't bore you with details, but I chose, once I was reasonably sure the A was over, to let the friendship run it's course. The A had so changed the nature of the friendship, that the absence of the A took the legs out from under the friendship and it died of it's own accord.

Again, maybe not the MB way, but I determined for my situation that it would work best for us.

MyRev:

I found your response interesting. I have a pretty different view of things here, and that's okay. Our differences are what makes this journey so interesting.


Well, I thought I went in2 rather more detail than I need 2 in order 2 convey why it's still around, W my W wants 2 keep it. I am comfortable with myself, however. Not the pic2re or its disposition. It might seem as though I am because I'm not going 2 let it keep me down, however.


Spacecase is fond of remarking how, if we accept that things are the way they are for a reason (in this case, so I can better myself), and that the people in our lives are who they are for their own reasons, and stop expecting others 2 service us in some way - we'll be a lot happier with our lives. Now, Spacecase wasn't able 2 restore his marriage after his W's A, but he WAS one of probably only 2 people in a state-required class for DV'd people who wasn't angry with their ex or bitter about the DV.

I do better in my own sitch the more I truly change my view of what people around me are doing - When I recognize that my W is doing the best she can with what resources she has 2 make herself a better person, I worry a lot less about what I perceive she's doing "to me". So, in this case, the pic2re, which isn't really a huge barrier between us, is nothing more than a blip in my W's own recovery of herself from the horror of having led a double life all those years. And I'm going 2 let HER deal with it in HER own way.

But it's okay for me 2 remind her that I don't like it around, and try to evoke a thoughtful decision on her part 2 do something about it - rather than demand she let me burn it or I'm out the door (or tossing her 2 the curb).



I disagree. You don't have 2 take the poster's his2ry or the current state of their M in2 consideration in order 2 sift through the advice they give 2 find the nuggets of useful information they've got 2 offer you or anybody else on this board.

The only reason I can think of for knowing these things is if I want 2 help them with suggestions of my own, and where having a little background makes it easier for me 2 do that.

I have no fear that if I take someone's advice, I run the risk of winding up with a marriage like theirs. If I take someone else's advice, the worst that could happen is that I would now have their advice. This isn't rocket surgery. It isn't hard at all for me 2 pick and choose what I want 2 use, and leave the rest.


Like grades of beef?

I'm a geologist, and concepts like "levels" are quite applicable 2 stratigraphic analysis. But they fall apart, I think, if you try 2 categorize marriages in levels of... ...what, b*tcheness? I agree we need 2 evaluate the advice, but other peoples' marriages? This isn't a supermarket where we pick and choose marriages we read about and buy the one we want ours 2 look like.


I accept, I don't tolerate. I also know who I am and what I believe is right. And while I wouldn't "do" what K did 2 recover his M 2 what it is 2day, the simple truth is that his si2ation was very different from mine and thus the specifics of what he did would be useless for me 2 try 2 apply 2 my M. But the concepts he employed and the thoughtful responses 2 painful events that he chose 2 implement can most definitely be weighed as I continue 2 recover. I'm not trying 2 model my M after K's - that'd be silly. I don't mind modeling some of my behavioral changes after his, though. As they apply.


This is fine. It's part of the process.


yes.

-ol' 2long

2long you been doin some good writin. I been doin a little readin, and it looks good to me.

Thanks for sharing.

SS