It's too late once the ADDICTION has taken on...
Yeah, I can see where this comes into play..

Mimi- I feel like I do have a pretty good understanding at this point of his philosophy, and agree with all that I've read. And am continuing to work on my stuff, and the kinds of things he recommends, etc. I also don't doubt that his stuff is applicable to us/our breakdown - and am sure it would be of great help if WH ever returns. I'm just saying that whether one/both/neither spouse does HNHN perfectly, or not at all - there is ALWAYS a choice. It does not feel right to read that 'anyone' would have an affair, even despite the perfect storm.

Does he have a chemical or alcohol addiction? That is the only thing that would preclude getting help for your marriage. And it doesn't sound like he is getting that now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Right. And scratching the scab is counterproductive. As you can see, it helped NOTHING. I used to leave counseling UPSET and ANGRY for years. IN WORSE SHAPE THAN WHEN I WENT IN!

But I paid good money and time for NOTHING! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The truth is that you don't have to know WHY you do a certain thing in order to correct the behavior. You simply have to CHANGE THE BEHAVIOR. It is unlikely one will EVER find out why anyway.


Behaviors change by focusing on the PRESENT. Once the focus is taken off the present, then no solution is ever probable. The solution is found in changing PRESENT BEHAVIORS.

phoenix, I was just as shocked as you when I first heard this, but I learned Dr Harley is dead right!! It is shocking because we have been brainwashed by a culture of counseling in this country. A very counterproductive trend! That is why his program is successful whereas your average marriage counseling is a DISMAL FAILURE with only a 16% success rate. If you look at the programs that succeed,[AA, AlAnon, ACOA, etc] you will see that they have a common demoninator, they focus on changing the PRESENT and leave the past.....in the past.

This HAS been exactly my personal experience as someone who was in counseling for YEARS and got nowhere, but went to AA and ACOA and changed dramatically and immediately!

Does he have a chemical or alcohol addiction? That is the only thing that would preclude getting help for your marriage.
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According to Addiction Specialist he is not an alcoholic but he could easily become one if he is not careful. She suggest he stop drinking...which he did for about 4 months and then slowly started to drink again.
Compulsive Sexual Behavior is what they are calling it.
How significant seems to depend on his mood.
He uses alcohol and nicotine and sexual fantasy when stressed....and for years, indulged in this type of IB w/o me
knowing.
it has always felt like an affair to me...the secrecy, the lies....the defensive attitude etc.

Nia, then there is nothing here that would prevent you from GREATLY BENFITTING from marriage coaching with SH. I am really concerned that you have been living under the shroud of darkness all this time. That is like torture. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Take a look at your approach, and see if there is something you can change in the way you are approaching him. Keep a daily diary if you have to.
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I am sure this has lots to do w/ his reluctance to discuss past sexual IB w/ me.....he does not feel safe w/ me....I think he is afraid I will leave him if i find out about an affair or even a ONS...which I am pretty sure has happened at least once.

Nia:

So I guess you see how the OPENNESS and HONESTY/TRANSPARENCY is missing. I didn't know about this SKILL either until MBers. You say "You think" about what his fear is...and you haven't told him that you would not leave him..or will you? Perhaps if you took the lead and shared with him and told him that you know about an approach that's successful in helping marriages...

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it is like torture.
I came to MB a couple of years ago to improve the H/O in my marriage....I didn't suspect an affair or SA at the time....when some of his lies around his IB were revealed and he started talking sex addiction,I shut down......I really wasn't sure how I felt about him/me/marriage anymore.
and I kind of gave up on it for awhile and decided to let him do it his way....but, ya know, it's not working for me and I do need to do something different. How much does Steve cost?...and how can I benefit if H is not on board w/ talking to him.
He has become anti-MB.....He thinks of it as "my" thing.

All the more reason to call SH. Long term bad communication habits probably very much need a third party involved.

I love the way Orchid handled this, too. Perhaps you could call her out.

My H talked to Steve a couple of times..but most of the coaching was just ME..he helped ME immensely...changed my life putting INTO PRACTICE what the BEHAVIOR CHANGES that he recommended...

So I guess you see how the OPENNESS and HONESTY/TRANSPARENCY is missing. I didn't know about this SKILL either until MBers. You say "You think" about what his fear is...and you haven't told him that you would not leave him..or will you? Perhaps if you took the lead and shared with him and told him that you know about an approach that's successful in helping marriages...
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Hi Mimi,

yes, I have tried this.....we even made quite a bit of progress a few years ago....but, i later learned that he had been keeping some serious info and had actually lied to me about some things.....after that, I shut down.....I haven't really been able to trust him since.

I haven't told him i won't leave him.....I have told him i might....I won't know un till I know the whole truth and I see that he is doing everything not to behave like that again..that is when he went to his own IC. He is working on his issues and he has been much more open w/ me than in the past.....and we are trying to work on the communication...but, he will not discuss what he did in the past...he has told me a few things but refuses to go into any detail.

Our MC has said we will get around to it once our communication is up for it.

You will get a third party unbiased opinion on changes YOU can make.

When I called a couple of years ago it was $185.00 per session.

If your H is into such IB as it sounds, all you can do is change the way you approach and relate... It will cause changes in the dynamics. With the guidance of SH, the change in dynamics will be positive and geared toward marriage recovery.

nia, Steve can help you bring him on board. My DH was once hostile to MB but has really come around since he has seen the positive changes in ME and actually MET other MB people. He does the lessons with me, too. [we went to a MB weekend] To him, MB represented an INDICTMENT of his affair, but when he learned it was nothing of the sort, he relaxed about it all.

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thanks mimi.
this is starting to sound like something I need to look into....I really gave up on it when i read that the addcition needs to be addressed first.

How do I find out the $?

and thanks josie....I will try to look up orchids posts.

Any thoughts on the MB week-end?

If your H is into such IB as it sounds, all you can do is change the way you approach and relate... It will cause changes in the dynamics. With the guidance of SH, the change in dynamics will be positive and geared toward marriage recovery.
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this is a good point and the direction I need to be focusing on.
I need to want to be in this marriage...and for the right reasons. I keep hoping he will figure it out in his IC......but, his IC seems to be prolonging me getting the answers I have waiting for.
I need a plan.

Mel - I keep responding because I am interested in this - I mostly agree but it is also bringing up some questions that I think are key for me. Am I TJ-ing? Is it ok to keep posting about this here?

I get what you're saying - and respect you enough to believe that if you (and these others) are saying it, that it's most likely true. So I'm just trying to understand. Because on one hand - I saw my H struggle our whole marriage with serious anger stuff. And I really think he was trying to correct the present behavior, but nothing ever worked. In that case, I really feel like whatever the counselor started digging up from his past would have been helpful to addressing that.. what do you think? Does what you're saying only apply to marriage/affair issues, or all-around counseling?

Also, the counselor said that H was very passive-aggressive, and as I've read more about it lately, I am convinced that affected a lot of our problems (his PA, and my enabling the PA). Again, I think digging into that (if he would have been willing - which he wasn't because he was already in the addiction) would have been helpful to us. But maybe what you're saying is that Harley's principle, like POJA, would have addressed the PA indirectly, even if we didn't know it was the PA causing the underlying problem?

Lastly, I think this all just touches on the issue of CONTROL that I have been working on a lot this year. A big part of this whole ordeal for me has been learning to trust God, giving it over to Him instead of trying to control. Giving WH the 'diginity of choice', even if the choice he makes is miserable or sinful. So reading Harley's letter above triggers for me the feelingi that 'if only I would have done everything perfectly, my H would not have had an A.' or that in the future, if I do everything perfectly, I can keep H from having an A. That seems counterintuitive to the way that I've been growing..?

Nia,

My girlfriend's husband used to smoke pot and she hated it, just hated it. They fought for 14 years over this one issue. She would get angry, check his clothing, car, etc for evidence...he'd get angry, stomp out, say ef it, go smoke up...

I mean this nasty cycle went on for years. She finally realized she was doing the same thing over and over and getting exactly the same results, and so was he.

She ended up changing HERSELF and her approach...

It took time and paying attention to what the cycle/dynamic was, and then it took time for the new approach/changes ...but not as much time as you would think.

I believe he hasn't touched pot in at least a year. And they have a much better marriage. Of course she can't focus on his addiction anymore and that in and of itself is one part of the dynamic. That is why Alanon is so important for spouses of alcoholics. Addictions are family problems, not just individual problems, for this reason. At least that is my understanding.

It is very heartening to see you say you will get a plan and start making changes of your own. It really is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I so agree with you, Phoenix!

I realize the MB philosophy on this...but if we were all wired for it, we would all have affairs.

As you said...my husband and I were in the same marriage. If I was "wired" for an affair, why didn't I have one? I had opportunity.

What would have worked with him, would not be ROOTING around in the past, but a WILLINGNESS to change and an anger management course that taught him to change current behavior. He does NOT need to know WHY he has anger problems in order to change his behavior, he just needs to know how to change. In fact, rooting around in the past will keep him ANGRY.

Passive agressive people can still master this program if they are willing. In fact, if followed correctly it would eliminate PA behavior. It is a big adjustment, but no more than someone like me, who is the QUEEN of Independent Behavior, had to adjust.


I am not sure I understand your question. Can you show me what quote of Dr Harley has made you feel this way?

Because the right conditions have not collided with opportunity in your life. You probably have good boundaries and a strong sense of identity, so the conditions were not right for you to have an affair. The people who have affairs, do not usually have that.

For me, I know I could have an affair if I ignored proper boundaries, neglected my marriage, sacrified my own needs, and allowed myself to get into vulnerable situations with men. BUT I DON'T! But I do know I could, if I were lax.

Usually the people who have affairs are the ones who think it could never happen to them, and as a result, do not observe proper boundaries in their lives. For example, they will have lots of opposite sex "friendships," and carry on a seperate personal life from their spouse. They live in a way that makes them vulnerable to an affair because they do not recognize how easily inappropriate feelings can emerge that lead to an affair.

Listen, y'all, I felt the same way when I first heard this at MB. It ticked me off because I believed it could never happen to me. Well, I have since learned that most ppl who have affairs think the same thing!! But the difference between those of us who have them and those who don't comes down to setting proper boundaries. I know I could have an affair under certain conditions.