JohnsTwin posted:

"Just one question: Is her friendship with the OM more important than recovering her M? IMHO this is a deal-breaker."

Just Learning posted:

"Clearly she does not want to be ONLY with you for the rest of your lives. She is eating meals with him."

So your WW claims she is devoted to you and your marriage now, that the OM supposedly is just a friend now, right?
But if your wife isn't willing to end a relationship with somebody who is supposedly just a friend then your marriage must not mean much to her then.

Either the OM means more to her than she admits and/or your marriage means less to her than she claims... So their 'friendship' is STILL so 'special' to her that it is as important to her as your marriage? If she had to choose between her 'friendship' with the OM and her marriage to you, would she give up the 'friendship' for the marriage?

BTW, she's trying to gaslight you into believing that a choice doesn't haev to be made. She has her heart set on BOTH and the more you hesitate before making it CLEAR that she has to make a choice, the more you are feeding her delusion that she can continue to cake-eat. You know what's even harder than competing with an OP? Try competing with the OM's best efforts PLUS your own best efforts combined vs yourself alone! That's one of the reasons why it is not advised to stay in Plan A too long. The WS doesn't simply get addicted ot the OP and the adultery, they also become quite hooked on having BOTH the OP and the BS around to meet their EN's. The longer cake-eating goes on, because the adultery hasn't been discovered yet, then because the BS delays exposure, then because the BS has to get their Plan A done, THEN because the BS is conned into false recoveries... the more addicted the WS gets to having it all. And the longer the WS gets to enjoy cake-eating, the less likely it is they will EVER settle for either just the OP or just their BS. Every single crumb of cake-eating gets the WS more addicted to cake-eating.

Going out to lunch alone with a man other than her husband is inappropriate enough in itself, even if it never led to anything even more inappropriate, even if it was with a man she had not already gotten into an inappropriate relationship with!

So basically she is asserting that in her opinion it's OK for her to spend time alone with a man other than her husband, going out to lunch with him, right? AND even with a man whom she had (has) an affair with, right?

Does either assertion sound like something a husband should agree to allow his wife to do?

Also, I see that your Plan B only lasted one day. What conditions and promises did you require of her before stopping Plan B? Wasn't no contact with the OM, including sending him a no contact letter, part of your Plan B letter?

She has not been away from him long enough to be through withdrawal and over the addiction yet. You are in a false recovery. You let her come back too soon and she is not yet ready to stop the adultery. IMHO you should return to Plan B if she does not stop all contact with him immediately. And don't be so quick to believe her the next time she wants you to end Plan B.

She's telling you whatever she thinks will convince you to allow her to cake-eat so she doesn't have to make a choice between you and the OM.

Even if she is 'only' talking to him and having lunch with him, even if it really never does go past that again, she is still getting some of her EN's met by him instead of by you. She may be careful (for now) to 'only' get her needs for conversation, friendship, attention... met by him - you know the needs that very few people would realize are inapporpriate to get from an OP instead of a spouse... but it is still an EA at the very least.

Here's something you might try:

In front of some other people (counselor, pastor, relatives, friends, OM's wife or girlfriend) bring up the subject of your wife going out to lunch with the OM still. Let her see how they react to it and whether or not they think it's acceptable.

Your wife is trying to gaslight you into accepting something utterly ridiculous! You need to stop discussing this with her in private, where she hopes to con you into compliance, and get some support from folks who will help you communicate to your wife that this is most certainly not something that can continue.

If that doesn't work to get her to see that what she is expecting is wrong then IMHO you should return to Plan B making sure that your Plan B letter clearly states that there can be NO contact with the OM. (And maybe you should even add that the whole going out to lunch with men other than you in general is not going to be allowed either?) While in Plan B make sure all communication attempts from your wife go to an intermediary and/or are in writing. That way you will have what she says as reconciliation agreements or promises in writing. You should not even consider breaking Plan B again until she puts it in writing that she agrees to end all contact and 'friendship' with the OM.

Dear BigPicture,
She just committed to you a couple weeks ago after you plan B'd her for a day--right?

She tells you she does not want to be intimate with him any more. But you mean physical intimacy. She is still sharing intimacy with him because they are still meeting privately. The affair is ongoing because their dance is still ongoing. Maybe it is physical as in SF, maybe it is emotional, but it is still ongoing.

You talk about him making her jealous by flaunting other women, how is that going to stop?

She is talking to you about the two of them, like you are a friend where she can share stuff about her relationship with him. And she can talk to him and then come home and share parts of it with you? She is able to do that, and you are able to accept that? This is not recovery, this is cake-eating. There is not other way to define this; it is cake eating.

Please think about this and ask her to write the NC letter and have no contact with him. Then, she has to have no contact and then you can work on your marriage.

My best to you.

If you want her password and access to anything else she is doing then purchase, WebWatchers. I did this and within 24 hours found out her 'secret' email account, her login & password. I warn you though to please be cautious because you may wind up learning alot more than you may want to know as I did. Also, be careful not to react with judgemental accusations if you find out the intimate details of their emails and how much they love each other etc... because if you think back when you were 'in love' you probably said alot of the same stuff to each other.

I can tell you from first hand experience that her eating lunch with this guy and talking to him is still an on-going affair. Maybe not sexually but emotionally. She is getting some of her needs from you & some from him.

As far as your question her being friends with him after the affair--Basically your what your asking is the equivalent of a person having a hemorrhoid surgically induced for the wonderful great feelings that hemorrhoids bring us.

Exactly. What do you think your WW's reaction to this would be? If it's just an innocent harmless friendship, as she insists, she should be happy to have the whole world know about it -- right?

And try this: Tell you WW you would like to join her and OM at one of their lunches. If it's just an innocent harmless friendship, she should be proud and happy to have her husband join in - right?

Dude, you are being played. I'm sorry this is happening to you, but there are many people here who can help.
Mulan

Yes, she is still having an affair with him be it physical and for sure emotional. If he is ***, then why is she still friends with him?

I would not believe one word of what she says.

And yet, invite yourself to one of their lunches. While you are there, ask him to quit seeing her ever again and quit boinking her. Have you told his wife and all the people at work or everyone they know about the boinking going on?

BP...

Your wife continuing to be "friends" with this OM would be like the U.S. getting chummy with Osama Bin Laden...

OM is a HUGE threat to the security of your marriage and family...Do NOT aid in your own demise, I beg you...

Mrs. W

Exactly!!!

How can you even consider such a propostion. I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous ... how do you stand up-right without a BACKBONE!!!

I just can't fathom accepting and rationalizing this level of ongoing of humiliation. Your D's look to you for strength and guideance ... great example you're setting for them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I agree myrev.

But, be careful...using words like ridiculous and referencing a backbone is likely to get you edited on MB today! Coddling is most assuredly the way to go.

If it gets edited, it gets edited.

You know that I primarily post to BH's and try to help those who are struggling with confidence, self-esteem, fear, etc. type issues. I admit to sometimes losing my patience when a BH just continues to allow their WW to humilate them over and over, as is the case here, and usually don't hesitate to bring the "wood".

Bigpicture admits to knowing that 2x4's are coming. He KNOWS that he's screwing up, and his WW is jerking him around, but he's trying to find a way to rationalize his WEAKNESS.

It is my opinion that a WW will not return, in most cases, to a weak H, so he can either "man up" now and give himself a shot at R or he might as well throw in the towel.

It may be tough for him to read what I wrote, but it won't be nearly as tough as reading his "Divorce Decree".

Here's a towel so you can wipe the blood off your head and I think there's a splinter sticking out at the top. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I don't think anyone *can* post about the OP becoming a friend because it just isn't a likely scenario and it really is a kind of "let's see how close I can be to the flames without getting singed while you watch, honey" thing.

My squick factor goes into overdrive at the idea of meeting up, sitting at a table, and eating with a guy who has "illegally" known me in the Biblical sense while my husband knows and expecting him to be accepting of it.

You know that even if they managed to be some sort of miracle exception to the policy of no contact that they are both going to be experiencing thoughts of what they have done and what they now know about each other.

How icky is that?

There really is no acceptable reason for your wife to do this nor for you to accept it.

Don't be a volunteer or enable your wife to take this knife and stab it into your marriage's heart.

bigpicture:

I think you're getting unanimous advice here.


Somewhere in there, I think Bill probably says something about NO CONTACT with the OM. That includes lunch dates. Seriously---if this guy is there to meet any of your wife's needs---it puts your marriage in extremely grave danger.

So don't do it. It's not a negotiable term of recovery. And many WS do exactly this, especially before the affair is truly over.

You won't find it on that DVD K - but it is on the infidelity DVD. NC is just the most basic fundamental of recovery......

Great suggestion from Mulan:

"And try this: Tell you WW you would like to join her and OM at one of their lunches. If it's just an innocent harmless friendship, she should be proud and happy to have her husband join in - right?"

Exactly!

No place at all for the OM as a 'friend' in your lives EVER!! It simply does not work ....... not once that I have ever seen here ........ Contact = affair it really is that simple.

Your wife is still in the affair ... that is the fact. I know this is not what you wanted to hear but it is the truth. SF or emotional right now, you can bet it WILL lead to SF sooner or later based on the previous history..... are you going to live on tender hooks until it does happen? maybe years? go through all of this again? all the while OM is involved in YOUR lives. Lets put your WW recovery aside for the moment ..... how can YOU recover from the hurt and betrayal with the OM sitting there .... month after month ...year after year?????????

Your WW is right now in this bargaining stage where she keeps you 'happy' with SF and telling you what you want to hear while doing more than likely exactly the same with the OM. Your WW is lying to you and herself.
What you are doing is falling for her continued lies, but you see SHE does not think she is a liar, she thinks it's all ok, a WW can rationalise ANYTHING .... I know I used to do it too.

your ww will not understand why you insist on no contact forever ... just accept that for now as she is in the fog of the affair still .... and of course SHE is happy ... SHE is getting all she wants from the two of you. Until she moves out of the fog which she cannot do until there is no contact permanently..... she will never be able to fully commit to you and the M. She will throw you bones to keep you quiet but thats all.

So in ans to your question, you now have the same ans from both BS as yourself and from FWW ..... IT WILL DESTROY YOUR M.... YOUR SELF RESPECT ...... YOUR FAMILY .... one way only ....

NO CONTACT FOREVER

all the best
AW

Echo Mulan...he is not a friend of your marriage!!

From a personal perspective...My FWH had many friends who were female. All of them would call our home and if I didn't answer the phone, before he hung up, he would put me on the phone for chit chat. I entertained these woemen in my home, I even scrapbooked some of their get togethers.

All but this one...the biggest heart break of my life. An old GF from back in the day who never ever got over him. He knew I disliked her from the get go. His other female friends disliked her as well. She was the one he had the EA with. If she had ever came out of the catacombs and called our home and spoke to me, well, she may have become one of the "chosen" as she put it. But, no she had to lurk and wait for my H to take an out of town job and start up again.
She only wanted him. If she really wanted to be his "friend" she would have been a real friend and she would have accepted the wife and life he chose.

She chose to live a life of what "might have been" And i do feel pity for her and how broken she must have been to throw away any chance she may have had of keeping in contact with a friend she felt more than friendship for.
You see, she contacted him after an elaboraste plan of gettin "in good" with his family. This is how she got his email and phone numbers. She called him with a "what's goin' on?" attitude. The EA lasted 3 months before my FWH could get shed of her. I found out a few months later.
It destroyed me at the time, and we are now 2 1/2 yrs later recovering beautifully. WW has got to know what a friend is and what a friend who wants to be lover is.

OM has got to be kicked to the curb, in no uncertain terms.
Grief to follow if he isn't.

On the offchance this was actually a serious suggestion can I just say that NO CONTACT means..... well...... NO CONTACT

That would be a fun game to play if it was "just a friend" but an affair partner? nope.

Well, of course I did not mean the three of them should learn to be pals and then all take a house by the sea together.

Anytime a WS starts spouting stuff like "he/she/it is just a friend, so there's no harm in my having lunch with them or doing anything else with them" --

and the BS is showing signs of swallowing this, which is what's happening here --

having the BS offer to join in *gives the BS a chance to see the look on the WS's face when the offer is made* and often wakes up BOTH of them to the fact that this is NOT a "harmless friendship" by any means.

The WS will be anything but enthusiastic. Their reaction will range from reluctant to offended to downright horrified, angry and defensive.

The BS will be forced to see this and might start coming out of his/her own fog.

Offering to join the WS and OP at their "harmless" activities throws a huge bucket of cold water on the whole thing.

Anytime a spouse starts talking about "a friend", the other spouse should immediately offer to join them and then watch the reaction. That will tell you right away what you're dealing with.

That's why I made the suggestion.
Mulan

Mulan,

It was a very good suggestion...from your perspective.

I've seen threads on this board questioning whether there is a difference between WH's and WW's and Mrs. W and I see this as one such difference.

If BigPicture (whom has obviously disappaeared) were to ask his WW your suggested question she MAY just agree to it and attempt to pull it off.

Whereas a WH would NEVER agree to such terms and may react as you indicated about, a WW, well that's a different animal. The manipulation foglight turns on in their brain and they start considering how they could pull this off. To them this could be considered a workable negotiated framework within which they get to keep contact with their addiction.

In addition, they may just call the BH's bluff and say "OK" even if they have no intent on following through with it. Women are much more canny at twarting such ruse than men. They flip the tables on the BH to again, make him the bad guy when he refuses to actual follow through with it.

Consider what happens if BigPicture's WW were to say "OK" to such an outrageous proposition???? Is BigPicture then stuck with it? Can you imagine the grief he'll endure, if and when, he later recants such offer to participate in the friendship with OM? I think it's just a risky play for a BH.

On the other side...there is OM's reaction. This plan may inadvertently give the OM the opportunity to make deposits in the WW's lovebank by himself refusing to go along with such plan (even if the plan is only discussed and, most likely, not agreed to). He'll express his false bravada and either indicate he'd could never do it because he'd punch out the BH (because he's been told BH is such a controlling, manipulative jerk) OR he'll express how much he "cherishes" the WW (implying BH doesn't) and how hurt he'd be (because he's a sweet, sensitive guy) and that he could NEVER share her with anyone. (appealling to her juvenile possessiveness) Yuckkkk.

Thus...I, in no way, think this is bad advice...just good advice unknowingly and benevolently applied/suggested in the wrong situation.

Mr. Wondering

I agree with you Mr. W, and if you read my post on this thread, that's exactly what I was saying. I DID TRY TO PULL IT OFF! There is no limit to what an active WW will try in order to continue cake-eating. It's unreal!

Mulan-no offense to you-I did get a good laugh at the prospect of the look on her face. But then I remembered what I did...ugh. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />