I can give you another example. After I got my PhD, I started looking for a job but I was seriously limited because I was restricted to the area where we lived since the divorce agreement stipulated that if I moved I would be giving up custody. The mediator actually suggested I be a high school teacher- 6 years of work to get a PhD, working all day and studying at night after the kids went to bed- I could have been a teacher with my bachelor's degree! My husband would not budge, so I finally found a job in Houston for lower pay and less chance of advancement.

Seriously, ladies, there's no point in arguing with these guys. It doesn't matter what our personal situations are or how fair and equitable WE are with our exes, the point is that these men have been screwed over by "the system" and it is somehow our fault (because we are female). Whatever!

Back to the original issue: I personally believe that men have just as much right to their children as women do. In my case, I shared custody of one child (with his father, who wanted it) and have primary custody of my other son (whose father has basically NO interest in raising his child). But, I'm just one woman. What do I know?

And what does any of this have to do with MF's situation? I don't think MF cares about wage gaps and unjust court rulings. She's just trying to screw her ex over because he screwed her over and she has now decided (late in the game) that he is not worthy of being a parent. Totally different beast in my book!

Personally, I was curious about the possibility of the father accepting Moonlight's offer - because his declining it would demonstrate his fitness to be a father. Would he accept the opportunity to keep all his money in exchange for no access to his children??

Some so-called fathers would jump at the offer - and still there would be nut cases championing the rights of so-called fathers.

Not all fathers are fit to be in their children's lives. Not all mothers are fit to be in their children's lives.

But there is no question that children need both fit mothers and fit fathers. The courts can't make it so by any legal judgment. Only mothers and fathers can make this happen.

Moonlight - the offer is tempting if only to find out what good-ol-dad would choose as his greatest priority. But you can't force him to be a good father. And for the sake of your children, you shouldn't force him out of their lives. The best you can do is teach your children to honor the man who gave them a chance to live - and if that's all the man does, they owes him a debt of gratitude. By honoring his father this way, they honor themselves and you as well.

Exactly. You do your children an injustice by not even giving them a chance to have a relatiobship with their father. Don't let your own resentments cloud your judgement. Pray and pray again. Then make sure you are making the decisions that are best for your children.

cathy,

I prove what I say. You don't have to believe it and you can use your anecdotal evidence as your defense but it doesn't stand up to the facts.

I am giving you statistics and media reports what more would you ask for? If you won't accept these things, you won't accept anything that differs from your worldview.

Sooner or later society at large is going to have to come to terms with what is happening.

Now most of you seem to realize the importance of a father in childrens lives. That's great, you would be suprised how many see fathers as sperm donors, walking wallets and nothing more.

*sigh* I honestly pity any woman blind enough to hook up with either of you, because she is in for a lifetime of vendetta.

I believe that at least 50% of them do not want to care for their kids on a custodial basis. It would not even be an issue if this were not the case, that so many men willingly walk away from their families so they can have the 'life they always wanted.'

Again, uh, no. My case is built on the premise that women make less so they deserve to pay less child support if they are indeed found not to be the custodial parent. You can twist words around all you want, it doesn’t make people believe you.

And it is not a myth. I can find hundreds more ‘facts’ that prove it is not a myth but I will not waste my time nor MF’s thread on it. Spread your bitterness elsewhere. I quit.

I agree with this. Please elaborate, MF.

Never said "every." But, generally, it is true. You being the exception just proves the contention.

Of course there are some good women out there - my wife just lowered - yes, lowered, her ex's CS payment. And it's not because we can afford it. I pay out almost 7 times (for 3 kids) what he pays us for two. We did it because the kids need to be able to do fun things when they are with him, too. In other words, because it was the right thing to do. Does that change the facts? Not at all. The point Garak and I are trying to make is that the system allows the abuse, and most (again, not every) women jump right on for the ride.

Facts are facts, and both Garak and I have presented enough to more than support our case. The other side has nothing more than a few isolated cases and "feelings." If you really have a case, I'm sure you can do far better than that.

OK, I've stayed out of this partly because there has been the odd statement that not ALL women are like this, but now we're up to "MOST" women and I do have to take offense to that. Let's go back a few pages to the discussion on abuse. Do a quick google search and you will find some of the following:

Ninety-five percent of the victims of domestic violence are women. “Report to the Nation on Crime and Justice”
Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1983

Violence will occur at least once in two-thirds of all marriages. - The Abusive Partner, M. Stark, 1982

Twenty-five percent of the women in the U.S. (12 million) will be abused by their current or former partners at some point during their lifetime. Three to four million women are physically abused each year. - Partner Abuse in Illinois: Knowing the Facts and Breaking the Cycle,
IDPH, Report to the General Assembly, 1996

Twenty to thirty percent of women in the emergency room are there due to abuse.-“California Hospital Emergency Departments'
Response to Domestic Violence Survey Report”
D. Lee, P. Letellier, E. McLoughlin, and P. Salber
San Francisco, Family Violence Prevention Fund, 1993

Approximately 3.3 million children witness abuse between their parents each year, based on estimates of partner abuse.- Domestic Violence: A National Curriculum
for Family Preservation Practitioners,
S. Schechter and A. Ganley, San Francisco
Family Violence Prevention Fund, 1995


My first XH was abusive. I can tell you it was very difficult to escape. In those days, abuse was tolerated. When we were going through court to determine custody, his abuse had no bearing on his chances for custody, nor the terms of visitation. I was granted supervision at least for the transfer of our infant son between us but that was it. But he still couldn't abide by the interim court order, practically made a mockery of the judge (took off with DS "somewhere", attacked me during a transfer in front of my parents and his brother etc., etc.). At the next hearing, the judge ordered supervised visitation with children's aid. He showed up once and then missed the next week. CA told me they didn't have space for no-shows so THEY cut us off. Judge supported this and granted me sole custody and absolute say over if and how XH would have visitation. He made one attempt to visit DS again and I made some elaborate arrangement for him to take DS to a lovely park under supervsion of a family friend who happened to be a retired RCMP officer. XH didn't like those arrangements and failed to show up again. That was the last we ever heard or saw of him.

Oh, and I didn't ask for or receive any child support. Despite my victory in court, the judge still viewed me as the trouble maker since I was the one who brought this on (the divorce).

Now, before you jump all over me that I'm one of these selfish women that will do anything the screw over my ex, my life was in serious danger. I had been to emergency 3 times in the last 6 months of our M. Those were only the serious injuries - there were many more that went unreported. I tried to leave many times but he would find me, take me back and beat the living crap out of me. There was no "zero tolerance" in those days - as his wife I was his property and therefore he was entitled to do whatever he wanted. The church was of the same opinion at the time. When I finally did leave, it was on an airplane with nothing but the clothes on my back and $5 in my wallet. I stayed out of the province until my court date. I was very, very lucky.

I have met many, many battered women over the years and even though things have gotten way better legally for them, it is still not enough. Sure, there are women who abuse the system. But there are also women (and children) who's lives DEPEND on these laws. Literally. We hate these women as much as you, because for every one that defrauds the system, it makes it that much harder for those of us who really do need some protection.

So please, direct your blame to those who specifically have taken advantage of the courts. Please don't steamroll over those of us who not only played fair, but nearly died doing so.

Tabby, I am sorry for your situation, I truly am. However, that doesn't change the current facts. Seems to me you and I are in the exact same boat - we both got screwed over by a biased court system, you in your time, me in mine. (Not that you are old and I am young - I ain't no spring chicken!)

Both systems at the times were unfair. All we are proposing now ia a system that sides with neither man or woman, but gives true equality.

I'm sure you can agree with that.

Again, I am sorry for your suffering, no one should have to go through that.

Tabby, all of your figures are out of date. Your newest figures are 12 years old. OUCH!

Let's look at modern figures, shall we? This is dated: Thursday, July 13, 2006.

GAINESVILLE, Fla. — Women are more likely than men to stalk, attack and psychologically abuse their partners, according to a University of Florida study that finds college women have a new view of the dating scene.

“We’re seeing women in relationships acting differently nowadays than we have in the past,” said Angela Gover, a UF criminologist who led the research. “The nature of criminality has been changing for females, and this change is reflected in intimate relationships as well.”

http://divorcesupport.about.com/gi/dynam...omen-attackers/

Did I read that correctly? We better check another study.

What Does the Latest Research Say?
- A 2007 survey sponsored by the U.S. Centers for
Disease Control of young adults found that 71% of the
instigators in nonreciprocal partner violence were women.
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/42/15/31-a
- A national survey of married and co-habiting partners
found that 8% of women engaged in severe partner
violence, while only 4% of men were involved in severe
violence. Renee McDonald, Journal of Family Psychology,
March 2006. www.smu.edu/experts/study-documents/familyviolence-
study-may2006.pdf

http://www.mediaradar.org/time_to_tell_truth.php


Doesn't it concern you that so much of "common knowledge" is false? Heck, it's almost like an agenda. Now who would have an agenda that would want to to distort the truth about:

1) The wage gap
2) Domestic Violence
3) Deadbeats

Who would lose alot of federal money, donations and support if the general public knew the truth about these things?

Is anyone else wondering whether GARAK and SYF are the same person?

When faced with uncomfortable facts, try to turn it around on the poster himself. Nice tactic.

Anything you want to say about the facts I have presented?

Garak and SYF, stop picking on Newly!

Oh, wait, I'M SYF!!

I guess it's typical of those who enjoy the advantage. They will fight to the death to keep said advantage, even going so far as to attack the messengers of truth. Facts! We don't need no stinkin' facts!

Kinda an indicator of character, though. I read somewhere that money doesn't make the man, it unmasks him.

In other words, a decent person would not abuse an unjust system.

Now now SYF, there is no need to get nasty about it.

Sure women have the advantage but I suspect that the anti-male programming in this society runs so deep that these facts are hard to swallow.

This can be easily proven by looking at the majority of men who think the same way but don't have the advantage. This also proves the anti-male programming taking place, men disliking their own gender. That isn't natural.

men disliking their own gender. That isn't natural.
********************************

it's evolution, Garak. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This info from sons' College Sociology text book published 2007 James Henslin 8th ed.

In the first year after divorce, and adjusting for family size, women's household income plummets by about 20 to 40% while men's declines far less.

Divorced women who remarry is significantly less likely to live in poverty.

Three years after divorce, women's income remains far below what they had during marriage and far below their ex-husbands' current income.

Ex-husbands who do not have full care of the children, compared to ex-wives who do, are less likely to be poor because their income is generally and statistically higher.

When families have two breadwinners, women fare better but not equal to men.

Men lose far more economically when the wife is a professional and the husband is not. However a divorced professional woman earns $400,000 less than her professional ex-husband before she retires in addition to reduced retirement benefits and social security.


The younger the children are at the time of parental divorce or common-law dissolution, the more likely they are to be poor.

Black children living with one parent are twice as likely to live below the poverty level.

Single mothers are nine times more likely to live in deep poverty than the married family, with incomes less than half of the official poverty line.

According to the Census Bureau, children whose parents divorce are almost twice as likely to drop into poverty than they were before the marital split.

A study shows that a divorce increases the father's odds of winding up in a low occupational stratum, and decreases a family's ability to pass advantages on to their children.

A child that is born out of wedlock is 30 times more likely to live in poverty than a child that was born in a marriage and whose parents stayed married.

The average American woman was paid 76 cents for each dollar paid to a man in 2002.

In 2006 the poverty rate of divorced elderly women was 13.1 percent, compared to 7.0 percent among elderly divorced men.

===============

If you notice a serious unfair change in trends...perhaps it is backlash.

I would call it social conditioning. For example:

Ever notice how a man getting kicked in the groin (or any type of violence by women) in entertainment is comedy.

Single mothers also get loads of government advantages. When men have to work harder and longer to make more money, single mothers get it for free. I would say single mothers have the advantage.

Don't tell me about the wage gap, I have already shown that to be a myth.

If men usually make more why do women get custody? It seems the government would rather pay out benefits than to give fathers custody.

Being a scientist, I can tell you that you can always twist statistics into proving your point. But I am sure I can find many more articles supporting the fact that women are much more likely to be the victims of domestic abuse than men are. Here are just a few of the more recent articles found in the SCIENTIFIC literature from the NIH website.

In the United States, 20 percent of all violent crime experienced by women are cases of intimate partner violence, compared to 3 percent of violent crime experienced by men.[12]^ Rennison, Callie Marie (February 2003). "Intimate Partner Violence, 1993-2001". Bureau of Justice Statistics. NCJ 197838

Current rates of intimate partner homicide of females are approximately 4 to 5 times the rate for male victims, although the rates for both have decreased during the past 25 years. Campbell JC, Glass N, Sharps PW, Laughon K, Bloom T. Intimate partner homicide: review and implications of research and policy.
Trauma Violence Abuse. 2007 Jul;8(3):246-69.

Results of a national telephone survey conducted in 2001-2003 indicate that 1 in 59 U.S. adults (2.7 million women and 978,000 men) experienced unwanted sexual activity in the 12 months preceding the survey and that 1 in 15 U.S. adults (11.7 million women and 2.1 million men) have been forced to have sex during their lifetime. 1: Violence Vict. 2007;22(4):437-48.

And I could also find many articles supporting the wage gender gap in many fields. In science, there is a yearly report that shows how much of a gender wage and promotion gap still exists. It is NOT a myth.

Women are less likely to have gained an education and employment history than men because they have been home raising children. At the very least they have to take off months for pregnancy/infant care. Therefore, they are likely to have lower paying jobs.

I can tell you from personal experience that lenders are MUCH more likely to lend to men than women. Just being a divorced woman lowers your credit score!