CG, I am sure sorry you are here. I don't think you need a PI for anything, though. You already have the evidence she is having an affair. It is clear as a bell.

Plan A does not work with an alcoholic because they only use it as an opportunity to EXPLOIT the BS. It is impossible to meet the needs of a alcoholic, so the BS only ends up getting hurt in plan A. Plan B would be appropriate, though, because it protects the BS and prevents the WS from being enabled.

My suggestion would be to confront your wife, showing her your apparent DIGUST at how far down she has gone, and proceed in exposing the affair everywhere you can. It is real important that you tell her about your disgust and how you see that she is consorting with a loser. This is very good medicine for an alcholic to see themselves through the eyes of others.

In the meantime, I would refer to an article by Dr Harley about alcoholism: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html

Thanks Melody...Michele,
The PI is for three things... my peace of mind...for irrefutable proof to present to her and her family if necessary and to protect me legally...

Melody... I've heard two different opinions on plan A and alcoholics... go with plan A first...skip it and go directly to plan B... In her state of mind I don't expect plan A to work...but she is in emotional turmoil...she came to the house on Sunday to pick up something and was crying when she left...

Correct me if I'm wrong but in order for an effective plan B to work shouldn’t one of the last things that the WS remembers about you is your how caring you were in your plan A approach?

When I do reveal the affair I'm not sure what to expect... I think she's on an emotional rollercoaster right now...she may actually be relieved to have the truth come out and start crying... Or she may go to the other extreme and get super pissed... continue to lie about it and get real ugly...I don't know...

CG
Yes Plan Aing someone lets them see what the M COULD look like if the WS would end the A and come back. It's also to improve you. It's a time to learn your S ENs and how to meet them, eliminate LBs and generally be a person that any spouse would want to come home to. Improve you.Make changes. You show that you are a beacon lighting the way home. Plan A has a definite time frame because most (if not all) people could not continue to be good to someone who is continually hurting them (the A). Eventually they would feel like they had a doormat sign stuck to their foreheads.

When the time is right and your heart and head are in the same place, Plan B needs to take its place. Going there keeps you out of the daily drama of the A. The pain and the hurt and the anger doesn't get rustled up constantly. And you protect what love you have left for them. It brings you peace. It also allows the WS to see and feel what life would be like without you. A letter is written to the WS explaining to them that you want the M, but can't live in a 3 person R. And if they want to come home they will have to do certain things, etc. You then are protecting your love for them. Then you go dark. An intermediary is put into place to communicate with your WS if financial, children, etc. issues arise. They don't get to see or talk to you.


The problem here is with her alcohol addiction. Will you be able to plan A her? Mel says that that can be hard if not impossible to do. Personally I don't know. I would defer to Mel. But in the best case scenario, it would be good to at least try for a VERY short period and not expect to see much. And for that matter don't expect to see much from your WW at all. It's going to get much uglier before you see ANYTHING. Just don't believe what she says. Watch her actions.


I think it would be wise to start reading up on Plan B. Finding an int. and preparing a letter. You should post it here to get suggestions and clarifications.

Michele,

Thanks for the advice. I've ordered several books from here, SAA, His needs her needs for parents, How to fall in love and stay in love.... Just waiting for them to get here.

I don't expect plan A to work on her but you never know... I really need to read SAA and get my act together before I expose the affair.

I’ve been loosing weight…but I wouldn’t recommend this as a diet to anyone...lol And since I’m loosing weight I might as well help it along by going to the gym. My sleep patterns have been getting better. I was only getting about 3 or 4 hours of sleep a night.

I met with the PI today and paid the retainer (Ouch!) I was going back and forth about weather to do it or not for a while... Now that I've committed I feel better.

I found out which AA meeting she's going to... and wouldn't you know it... right across the street from his apartment. How convenient...

Compared to my family she has a strange/dysfunctional family. I am the youngest of 11. My mother and father were high school sweethearts that married each other in 1941and stayed married until my mother died in 1979. My father never re-married and passed in 1995. They had their problems but stayed together and by the time I came around they were happy together. My brothers and sisters all love each other and support each other in times of need.

She is the youngest of 5. Her parents separated and divorced when she was a baby. From what I understand her father was a gambling alcoholic who was having and affair when they divorced. They’ve both been married at least 3 times each since. When they get mad at each other they will stop talking to each other and go for years like that… (My wife went 6 years without talking to her brother.)

I get along with everyone in her family and I like them all. My wife and I had a physical altercation once and her mother got pissed at me… rightly so… but I think she’s ok with me now…I get along great with her father and her brother… Her brother say’s I’m the best brother in law he’s ever had… And compared to her EX’s I’m probably the best thing that ever happened to her.

When I expose the affair I want everyone in her family to know... But I'm not sure how much support I'll get from them. How do I sell it to them? And what’s the best way to do it… email…phone?

Thanks Again,
Chuck

CG

I don't know if it matters how you approach them. But your message is what's important. You want them to know that you love your wife. You want your M. You are asking for their support. You are going to fight for her. Those were your vows...for better or for worse. You remain calm. If any of them try to argue, don't engage, just reiterate that you are fighting for your M. That's it.

It's hard to figure out how others will respond to such news. They could be all over the place. Be prepared for anything. Don't plead or look pathetic, be strong. You are doing what is right! No need to be preachy, just matter of fact.

Bulletproof, Huh?

If you keep changing your screen name, nobody will ever figure out where you are. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

You asked me a question on one of my threads and I have read this thread and am trying to figure out what to tell you.

Since the car is in both of your names, I don't think you can confiscate it and as you already figured out, letting it get repo'd would be cutting off your nose to spite your face. It isn't an easy situation to be in.

Do you have a camera with any reasonably long lens? If so, snoop yourself and try to get pix of the two of them together. That should be sufficient proof if push comes to shove.

I would hire that bulldog lawyer MEDC talked about and prepare for a legal separation. Part of that agreement should be that she either buys the car from you (she pays half up front) or better yet, she can refinance the car so that she has to make the payments.

I hope you are not picking up the tab for her love nest and you should also not be paying any bills that are in her name alone.

Another part of the LSA should be that OM cannot be around the children. It might be hard to get approved, but try for it anyway.

As for exposure...get a list together and execute it all at once. Don't do it piece meal and do NOT tip her or warn her in any way that it is about to happen. Any warning at all and she can begin to spin it to her family and friends. She has probably already begun doing so and times a wastin' to get the exposure going. When you expose, she will not be mad...She will be LIVID. You have never heard or seen what she will say and do when you expose. She will say things that will make you nearly faint, but it is all simply noise and smoke. It's what a WS does when you rain on their fantasy.

You've been asked if you have read up on Plan A and B. By the fact that you read at least some of my thread, I am guessing you at least have some ideas what the plans are all about.

How can you meet her ENs? Have you identified them yet? Do you even want to do a Plan A and try to save this marriage? That is the first question you really have to answer and if the answer is yes, then you have to be ready to put your own wants and needs on hold for at least a few months in an effort to win her back.

And you need to get some pix or something soon, because you can't just let her continue as if everything is like she is telling you it is. You KNOW she is having an affair and you need to let her know that you know. To do that, you don't need indisputable proof, just enough to make her think you have more than you are telling her.

When I confronted my wife, I had cell phone calls and emails in close proximity to each other. I snooped and found traces of deleted files on the computer that were created or deleted around the same times and put it all together as if I had every picture, file, email and transcript of every phone call. I really had squat...But she didn't know that because I sold it pretty well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have to tell you that you've got some of the best there is posting to you. RIF understands the military part of all of this better than anyone (IMO) and you even had Pep come out of retirement to post to you. Michele and LA are great. LA will say things you will have to read ten times before you get it all and each time will be something you didn't see before. Mel is from Texas and takes no prisoners when it comes to this stuff. So to be honest, I can try to answer any specific questions you might have about something I wrote, but you're already in very good hands.

The best thing you can do right now is to call the coaching center and get an appointment with Steve or Jennifer. Either of them can help you get it together more in 45 minutes than all of us on here can do for you in a month.


Mark

Well I made an entry a while ago and said somthing about being 10 ft tall and bulletproof... I rememberd a user name that I had when I used to chat on yahoo...

OK… let me address some things and ask some questions here…

I concur about the car…

I’ve already found a great lawyer…

I’ve already retained the PI… I’ll wait for his pictures.

The only thing I’m paying for is the car and the insurance. (because I have to have insurance until its paid off) The good thing is I only have 4 more payments until its paid off.

There is no Legal Separation in PA…I can’t do anything about him being around HER child… I have mine at home with me and he ain’t coming here.

I agree with the exposure… just waiting for the PI…


I want to save the marriage…
Do I have to do a Plan A? Or can I expose and go right into a plan B? Or… can a do a Plan A for a very short time then go into a Plan B?
I’m not sure how to meet her EN if we’re not in the same house.
I visually went through the EN questionnaire. She has a need for conversation… but I don’t know if that is something I should try…We met on the internet… chatted for several days before we talked on the phone… then would talk until she literally fell asleep on the phone. We had talked for over a month before we met in person.

Thanks Mark,

It’s late… I have new books to read and I need to go to bed….

BTW… where in ILL are you? I’m originally from Iowa.

Plan A is about self improvement. It lets you become a better person and husband by killing love busters and becoming better at meeting ENs for your wife. While it is difficult to do much in Plan A when you are not together in the same house, it is not impossible. Look at Skinsgal's thread and see how it can be done.

Plan B is a last ditch effort for the BS to get away from the craziness and drama of an ongoing affair. It isn't punishment for the WS or an effort to "make her see what she is doing" and return to the marriage begging for forgiveness. Plan B is designed to protect any vestiges of love that you might have left as you near burn out from trying to win her back in Plan A, because if you are doing a good Plan A, you are burning out rapidly because you are giving freely while squashing the desires of your taker in an effort to avoid love busters.

Plan B can have some benefit as far as breaking through the fog of the affair but only if it has been preceded by a really stellar Plan A. Other than that, Plan B is just a waiting game to see when the affair will end of its own accord.

This is exactly the kind of thing you are looking for. This is how she fell in love with you before and is likely how she fell for OM as well. It is the key to her heart, so to speak and any efforts you can put into meeting this need for her will result in conflict for her as she attempts to resolve her feelings for you and the actions of the affair.

But no matter what you do to make deposits into her love bank, if you make withdrawals as well your balance will never grow. So you must identify all love busters in your own actions and get rid of them. Showing anger, even if you don't explode into a rage can drain her love bank as can saying anything that misrepresents anything she says or does (disrespectful judgment)

And anything you attempt in the way of educating her or trying to break through the fog and make her realize that she is wrong right now will be construed as a love buster by her. You can't reason with a WS, so save the energy. You can't educate a WS so sharing what you have learned will be a waste of time.

As I drummed into TMTS for a couple of weeks, Plan A is about:
1)Meeting her ENs as much as she allows
2)Avoiding love busters completely
3)Having No expectations of anything in return from her.

By doing #1 you fill her LB$.
By doing #2 you stop withdrawing from your account.
By remembering #3 you can remain just sane enough to pull it off. It is unmet expectations that will be your undoing in Plan A. You have to do 1 & 2 without any expectation of any response from her at all.

You won't see the effect, but it will be happening beneath the surface.

OK; time for Steve's rocks in the river analogy again...

You stand on the bank of a river. It is too wide to swim safely because of the strong current and much too deep to wade across. You pick up a rock and throw it into the water and it vanishes beneath the waves. You throw another rock and it too simply disappears under the water.

You keep throwing rocks into the river and nothing shows for all your efforts. You know by reason that the rocks are not vanishing but must be piling up beneath the surface, but you haven't seen any sign of it happening. But you throw some more rocks.

You throw 499 rocks into the river and see nothing in the way of progress. And then you throw rock number 500 and the very tip is barely visible above the water. And that is the basis for building a bridge to get to the other side.

Though the deposits you make into her LB$ will seem to have no effect at all, you have to just keep making them, because you have to understand that they will pile up and have a cumulative effect over time. And when you do have a visible reaction, you concentrate on building on that in order to establish something tangible.

This is Plan A...

The best investment you could make right now would be to talk to Steve or Jennifer. Call for some coaching. Either of them can help you form a specific plan designed just for your situation.

I am about 45 miles SW of Chitown, near where the DuPage, Kankakee, and DesPlaines rivers meet to form the Illinois. I'm a ways from Iowa, but do get to see QCA television often as I have resort property just NE of Quad Cities. My wife and I have also spent a little time in QCA doing some recreational stuff including dinner on a river boat out of Moline.

The company I once worked for did a lot of work in Iowa and another job I had sent me to Garner about twice a month.

Mark

Mark,

Thanks

Great Post...

I have relatives that live near Streator. Verona/Kinsman area... Coal City sounds familiar to me... I think I went there once with my aunt and uncle as a boy...

Chuck

I mean 'give up'.

BECAUSE you should be turning ALL your attention/energy in the direction of your children - WHO NEED YOU

Your children do not NEED this chaos - and they do not need a Dad who is trying to fix another adult who does not WANT to change ....

You only have so much time in your life - spend it where you can do the most good


YOUR KIDS

If WW was their bio mother - my advice would be different .... but she is NOT.

sorry kiddo

I won't bother you again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Sorry Pep... I think that terrible advice...

I see her for what she is now... and HOPE for what she could be... I won't give up on her... I'm not hanging on... just hoping for what could be...and making changes in my life and my kids life for the better... I want her to be a part of my life.... but I'm resolved to not going back to the same way it was... It either changes for the better or it ends... and I'm fine with either one.

The thing is... since she left there seems to be much more calm and happienss in the house... my girls and I are getting along better than ever!

good for you!

be well

Pepper,
I do appreciate you're opinion.

Sometimes a dose of TRUTH is what someone needs to hear but not what they want to hear or are ready to hear.

It's very possible you are right on the money. I'm just not ready to give up yet...

Hey Mark,

What do you think about this?

Input, comments welcome… (From anyone…that means you too Pep…lol)

Just like the book SAA said...

With separation comes reality. I had a long talk with my oldest daughter last night… On of the first times she’s opened up to me in a long time. My daughter informed me that my stepdaughter is very unhappy with my WW. Apparently WW and her daughter fight all the time. Stepdaughter feels that WW is spending too much time at AA (Where she met OM) and elsewhere (I’m sure its with the OM). When WW was still in my house she would go to her meetings and leave her daughter here with my kids and me for LONG periods of time. Now that she has her own apt she doesn’t have me to U-S-E anymore and it’s causing problems in paradise.

After my daughter told me this I asked her if she thought it would be good for the stepdaughter to come over for a short visit. My daughter said yes and that she misses stepdaughter.

Which brings me to this…

I think another of my WW’s EN’s is family commitment. I’ve read what the book say’s family commitment is… And under that definition is spending quality time with the children in order for them to develop into successful adults. One of the things I’ve decided to do for “Me” to improve “Me” is take dancing lessons. I’ve found a place in my hometown that teaches swing dance, ballroom dance etc… they give lessons and have a dances that are open to the public weekly. Originally I was planning on going by myself. But after talking to my daughters I thought it might be something we could do together. I asked them if they think I should bring my stepdaughter too. However, I’m not sure I want to do that. Wouldn’t that be ENABLING my WW to spend time with OM? Would I be helping to fix her domestic problems with her daughter by having stepdaughter spend time here with my kids and me?

Any comments or thoughts would be great.

If your stepdaughter is 16+, then I don't really see involving her in family activities is enabling WW's A.

Don't know how it works in your state, but the only real advantages for a PI, IMO, are: (1) it insulates you from following your WW and her AP; and (2) you have a corroborating third party witness of the adultery if it goes to trial and if the A is relevant. $200/hr seems a little high to me (I lucked out with about 40% of that), but you are lucky that you know so many details and that WW is acting so openly.

- WG

Ok... what does age have to do with it?

As far a the PI goes you pretty much hit it on the head. (BTW what is "AP"? affair partner?)

You got the AP correct.

I don't know what you are seeking from me in the way of advice. If you plan to fight for your marriage, you need to take certain steps. And one of those should be to call and talk to Steve or Jennifer. You need to have specific plan in place that you can execute no matter what your WW does.

You don't need to find any more evidence of an affair, you already know it is a reality. What you need to do now is to take steps to break up the affair. You also need to do everything in your power to protect your kids from this and if you care about you step-daughter, that includes her as well. But I sense in what you write that what you are looking for is an angle or leverage to use against your WW. Maybe not in divorce court, but as leverage to make her come to her senses.

But that isn't something that you can do. It isn't within your power to make her come to the decision you seek and trying to do so will only make you as nuts as she is acting.

Plan A is about you making you the best you that is possible and showing her that with you is better than with OM. You have to be willing to do things for her that make you that better option without doing anything to drive her away and that is far from easy to do. You can only do this for a short time or it will kill your love for her entirely. So it has to be short and intense.

When you can't do it anymore, before you no longer love her, you have to be ready for Plan B, which is only about you protecting what love is left until the affair dies. Having to do without you might hasten that day, but only if she has some reason to miss you before you stop seeing her completely. That is what the reality check of Plan B is all about. Unless she has some reason to desire to return to you, Plan B is just getting you out of the way for her point of view.

In order to have any chance of doing a Plan A that has meaning, you have to meet her ENs, kill all love busters in your own life and show her what marriage to you can be like. But you have to balance that against trying to break up the affair at the same time. And the best weapon to use against the affair is exposure. Exposure to anyone who might have any influence over your WW is what might help, but there are no guarantees.

I also need to tell you that the fact that Pep is posting advice to you makes you special in some way. She pretty much retired a while back from posting here and she hasn't posted on very many threads of late. I don't know why she chose you to help, but believe me when I say that you need to pay close attention to what she says. While you might miss the point of her one line and sometimes single word replies to you, they can pack a lot of information you need to consider. Likely more than all of my ramblings, so don't discount it.

Mark

Thanks again Mark,

You’re right I don’t need any more evidence for me…. However I do want more evidence in the event I end up in divorce court. I will make an appointment with Steve or Jennifer. I do care about my stepdaughter but I’m not sure what I can do to protect her…I don’t really have any legal rights when it comes to the stepdaughter… Some advice or clarification would be helpful…


I’m not sure I follow you could you explain further?


Like I said in an earlier post… I do appreciate her advice… and she may be right on the money. But I may not be ready to accept what she’s saying right now… I don’t know… but I’m open to her opinion.

Chuck