Hey TOO,

2 full nights of sleep is something to celebrate IMO....

keep up the good work

not2fun

Hang in there, Try! The worst is almost over. After WD is still difficult work, but maybe not as blatantly painful. You will at the very least have some good times to go with the bad! And that will give you some strength to continue. I am so glad you are getting some sleep. W2S didn't sleep for months and had the most horrendous nightmares when he did.

My thoughts and prayers are with you always!

Latest update:
24 days NC and counting...
Yesterday while at work I received the following text message from WW:
"Just wanted to say that I luv u and want to be with u forever."
It made me feel really really good.
It's kind of difficult thinking that the same "fogspeak" rules that apply to bad stuff probably applies to the good stuff too, but I'm absolutely taking this as a positive sign that the fog may be lifting somewhat.
This is hopeful for me, and I hope for some of you going through this as well, that your situation can improve too.

****** yes 2 nights of sleep is cause for celebration!

I am with you on this one, Try. Look at it as a GREAT thing and then move on (in other words, stay with NO EXPECTATIONS and don't over-analyze). You guys are going to be OK. You've got great support here (especially with Mrs. W...that sweet Georgia PEACH) so stick to the plan!

Hey...I just ordered a drink...that barkeep's a little SLOW!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I may need to hire a few bartenders!(lol)

I'm remaining cautiously optimistic, knowing this is going to be a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong roller coaster ride. I'm just going to enjoy the view from up here while I can.
Can't wait for the "Alien Mountain" ride to end so we can go check out the "Recoveryland theme park" I hear it's really nice...
Thanks for the support LaLa. I know WW is in good hands. And me too for that matter.
Gotta run. The crowd's getting a little unruly (lol)!!
More later...

Post deleted by trytoohard

Haven't posted here for a while, cause I guess we're going through WD. I find that for the most part WW is doing better, but we're still not where we need to be.

I'm still wondering when to attempt to re-engage in Marriage talk so we can start recovery together. I still have many issues I feel that need to be addressed so I can start to re-connect with her at a romantic level.

I guess I just keep circling in a holding patterm waiting for clearance to land...

The nightmares seem to be less frequent, but still happen regularly and I'm having trouble being productive at work.

So I checked the cell phone bill yesterday to confirm NC ( boy, I hope that doesn't become a permanent part of our marriage) and something has me a bit concerned. There were a couple of calls to / from her old work (RB still works there) the problem is that our neighbor (her Friend) works there too and they talk often. So I don't know for sure if she spoke to RB or just her friend.

What concerns me is her lack of concern for potential contact. Even assuming she did only speak to her friend and NOT RB, by placing a call to the workplace (at a time RB is known to work, he could easily have answered the phone. Why would she do this? Assuming it WAS F not RB who called her ( at a time RB is known to work) why would she take the call? It could be him...

Which brings me to my quandry du jour: I would like to address her not calling / taking calls from the workplace as a precaution to maintain NC. This was one of the sneaky ways they maintained phone contact once she found out I was checking the phone bill. In one of the "secret" emails I intercepted a while back, she asked him to call her from work so I wouldn't know. (like I didn't assume they were doing that anyway.)

I do not however want to start a sh*tstorm "snooping" discussion. We've done well with no R talk and (I hope) WD is going about as well as can be expected. I still don't feel comfortable with how to broach this with her without her feeling attacked or accusing me of the old reliable "controlling", "I can't trust you" bs... I don't want to lose ground.

I have little doubt that the uncertainty about whether she talked to him or not is what triggered last nights nightmare which I awoke from sobbing. She woke up too and asked me what was wrong. I told her it was a bad dream. She asked if I wanted to talk. I said no. She then commented that I've been having bad dreams a lot. I lay awake for a long time unable to fall asleep. I think it may have been that I diddn't want to go back to the same old recurring dream theme.

Anyway, I'm dealing with a lot of anxiety as she's started a new p/t job and has started taking a night class in preperation for returning to college.

A big part of me is really proud of her for getting out and continuing her education, but I dread that she will find some other convenient willing guy who will undoubtedly flirt with her and send her into another Affair tailspin.

I know this is partly fear and overreaction on my part, but it's tangible right now.

How do I start getting on to discussing her needing to take precautions for protecting our marriage. I still don't think she's either ready or willing to get in to that yet, but my fear is if we don't address whatever made her vulnerable to this in the first place, it will happen again.

Anyone out there have any suggestions? Sorry if I'm seeming like a weinie...

I don't think you should hide the fact that you are going to be checking up on her until she EARNS your trust back. You don't trust her right now, you shouldn't pretend to trust her. Snooping is your way of protecting yourself, and you do it because of HER actions, not because you wish to control her. You should ask her to NOT call her friend at the work number. She can call her friend's cell phone, her friend can call her from her cell phone, she should be willing to do that for your peace of mind, she should also be willing to do that as a precaution against future contact with OM. You aren't trying to control her talking to her friend, you ARE trying to control and verify her contact with OM, with good reason, as if she is going to continue to contact OM, then you don't want to be with her, right?

As far as the sleeping issues and nightmares: I am right there with you, but it is getting better. Just last night I had a rough night. I'm an insomniac by nature and the A has made it worse. However, I have been sleeping better overall and dwelling on things less. Really, I think it just takes time. My W does help, and does commiserate with my pain to some extent. She's very accountable and does anything I ask of her to reassure me and be accountable. I think the deal is just that us BS have to process and work through the betrayal, and that simply takes time.

I wonder if there's a way to bring up calling her old work as a question rather than an "Ah Ha!" I know you're calling...

She hasn't really told me that she's willing to do what I need yet, rather just not saying anything and trying, I think, to get through WD. She tends to internalize anything even remotely difficult, which is partly what lead to the state of our M being vulnerable to an A. She never told me she was unhappy.
At any rate, I guess I don't know if she plans to eventually discuss and work on these things, or just try to "put it all behind her".
For what it's worth, I think burying issues that need to be resolved will only make them worse in the long run.
I keep hoping she'll come to me with some sort of reconciliation effort.
I think part of WD is her feeling as if she's made some HUGE sacrifice by giving up RB, and I should commend her on that and not expect much else.
From my perspective, ending her A with RB is the bare minimum required simply to gain "human" status again with me, and the gratitude should be sent my way for giving her another shot at our life together. I can't help but think if the situation were reversed, I'd be falling all over myself trying to do ANYTHING she wanted for me to make it up to her.
I guess we all do things a little differently now, don't we.
Sigh.....

For some reason it seems like "weinieness" is reaching epedemic proportions among BH's here at MB right now. With the encouraging exception of a couple of strong and proactive BH's, it seems nearly every other BH/WW thread is mired in indecision and inaction ... quite pathetic really how some allow WW's to continue to emasculate them, even after they've disrespected them in the worse way possible.

You have mail Try!

How much time per week are the two of you spending together doing FUN things? You should be spending a MINUMUM of 15 hours/week engaging in Recreation Companionship, Intimate Conversation, Affection and Sexual Fulfillment...Where are the two of you as far as that goes? Much of this time in WD will likely have to be used towards Recreational Companionship...those ACTIONS will be necessary to create the FEELINGS for the other things to fall into place...

I think you will find that her desire to please you and be transparent will follow if you begin to work the program...I believe very much that these things work in tandem and not independently of each other...

Also, if she uses that control issue on you, you can certainly tell her that it is more controlling for her to make decisions about your life without your input...If she is carrying on a relationship with an OM behind your back that IS the ultimate form of control...it deprives you of making necessary decisions about your life...ie. Being in a marriage that only includes TWO people...It is NOT fair for her to go do a "try it before you buy it" while married...that happens in the DATING world, NOT the MARRIED world...Further, how is it controlling for you to go over your own phone records before paying a bill? Offer to let her go over the phone record with you-explain that the records belong to both of you, and in the interest of transparency and togetherness all of your bills should be gone over together...And like Tyk says, trust MUST be EARNED...Her loss of your trust was due to her own choices...

Mrs. W

tth,

I think your fears are very natural for this stage of recovery. I consider early recovery one of the !<<<most>>>>! painful times during the journey to move past infidelity. Here's why: First, your suspicious, your worst nightmares....have just come true. You're still incredibly hurt and suspicious, and you should be. You haven't rebuilt trust yet, and you still find yourself checking up....and that, in and of itself, traps you in the nightmare because you relive it every time you need to look. You recognize that your marriage is still vulnerable, but your WS is not yet receptive to marriage building. Your WS is often still going through withdrawal from the affair and struggling to maintain no contact. Relapses are common and terrifying. You will probably fight depression right now and have horrible sleep and anxiety issues. You have your spouse back (kinda)....but you don't know what you have yet....AND you're not sure you want what you have because you're still doing all the work.

What I've noticed about the board....is that GQII is good for discovery, and you would think that the Recovery Board would be good for recovery....but I'm not sure. This board is mostly a hard core infidelity fighting board. And Recovery is alot of "venting" (which most people think is helpful....but isn't". I see very little recovery on the recovery board.

Many many marriages survive infidelity and don't reach recovery. They get past the pain, but fail to thrive. And that's because....recovery requires a recovery "plan". As you suspect, you need to put "extra-ordinary" precautions in place to "shore up" the poor marital boundaries that precipitated the infidelity.

Ideally.....those things are negotiated BEFORE reconciliation....but if they aren't....it's not surprising you are where you are now:

scared to bring up
fearful of her reaction
insecure about what will happen when "tested"
suspicious about opportunities for contact

What many people don't understand is that "fear" during early recovery will make it impossible to take the steps that real recovery requires.

So before addressing the steps for recovery (which I honestly think the EN board does best)....you've got to be able to answer these questions:

*Am I willing to risk holding myself responsible for my own happiness?

*Am I willing to risk the conflict that will be caused by discussing the real elements of recovery?

*Am I willing to put aside my own fear of losing my wife in order to save my marriage?

PS....trust is an illusion. The definition of being human is being fallible. When you trust....it's not because you can predict what someone else will do or not do. It's because you trust yourself to deal with their imperfections without falling apart.

You have an oppportunity to be a stronger man who won't settle for less than the very best from your wife (not the apathy of a still "slightly wayward" spouse.

Recovery is especially hard because waywards HATE IT. They hate it because they have to explore their own immorality, and remember the pain they've caused others. They hate having to re-examine their selfish needs and change the way they deal with the opposite sex. They hate feeling guilty....and finally....they hate burning those affair "bridges" because they aren't sure of the marriage either.

It's too bad really....because it's all part of it.

You're worth it.

She can do what needs to be done, and keep you....or she can keep her fuzzy boundaries and complacency, and lose you. Ulitmately....you both have a choice about what is "acceptable". Please don't leave all the decisions up a "dizzy" wayward! Be your own advocate.

And do NOT short-change your recovery by adjusting what needs to be done to the needs of the wayward.

So yeah....stop being a "weinie" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Whoah, MyRev. A 2x4's one thing, but that's a bit much. I've noticed that many of your recent posts seem to be mired in selfrightousness and are not the least bit helpful. I take particular offense at your suggestion that I and others in our specific troubles who come here to share and look for positive feedback are "pathetic" and "emasculated". Ya think you could post without sounding like an *sshole? If not you might consider doing something else with your time.
I'd be willing to bet that you're not perfect either, and that not every aspect of your "model" recovery has gone exactly as you would have liked.
I truly value the differing opinions and perspectives I can find here, but if you can't find a way to be constructive without being insulting, please stay off my thread.

I gave you my honest appraisal of the sad state of many BH's here at MB right now. You appear to be more interested in getting confirmation to enable your continued inaction.

I find it amazing that you can muster the indignation to defend yourself to me, when all I did was anonymously question your manhood, but never betrayed you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

That being the case, and since you've requested that I not post to you, I will honor your request and never post to you again.

Good Luck!!!

Hmmm...Okay guys, here's a post that I wrote earlier, but for some reason just left on my notepad and didn't post it...think I'll give it a try now...


I do think there is a fine balance between "weinieness" and being an "ogre"...I do agree with MyRev, that certain things just shouldn't be tolerated in the interest of maintaining your "manhood" in your wife's eyes...That being said though, only YOU define your masculinity...

Some examples from our life...Towards what MyRev may consider "weinieness" (funny word-lol), Mr. W sure listened to his fair share of fog talk...didn't agree with me, but LISTENED, which met my need for conversation...essentially he "acknowledged and ignored" me...Looking back I see that as STRENGTH to be honest...My own ego could not have taken that-which says a lot about my own sense of security...Mr. W, on the other hand, has always defined himself through himself and NOT through what others may think about him...He is a very confident man. Negative words from others have always rolled off his back...Mr. W ACTS, he does not REACT...I also know this about him, he would not have allowed my fog talk to continue indefinitely...He had one stated boundary, and it was "I will NOT be in a loveless marriage"...And though I puffed up and told him that he was trapping me and that I would be miserable and make him miserable as well, he simply restated his boundary to me-not as a challenge or threat, but simply what he would/wouldn't accept...I believed him...

On to another example...As far as triggers go, Mr. W was not a trigger kind of guy...He knew there were certain songs that I had attached some ridiculous, teenaged type meaning to with OM...Instead of letting that stuff get to him, what did he do? He would play those songs at full volume and sing right along...And when I would say something about it, he would say, "Sorry, but I like that song!" Made me look and feel like the stupid teenager that I had been acting like...Also showed me that Mr. W was not sitting back whining and whimpering about stuff that absolutely had NO VALUE...And put the triggers where they belonged...right in my lap...

Try, you can point out things that are unacceptable in ways that aren't "in your face"...Drawing BOUNDARIES of what is and is not acceptable to you is attractive...No one likes a doormat...I certainly don't think it would be out of bounds for you to tell her that you aren't okay with that friend calling her from work...I guarantee that she would NOT dig that if the situation were reversed...Her actions came with consequences, and I think she is gonna have to put on her big girl panties and deal with that...(Personally, I would have a problem with her having friends that are in that close a proximity to OM...I think it's dangerous...too many chances for contact by proxy) Recovery is a TEAM effort...your goal is to show her that both of you are on the SAME team...

My point is, there ARE ways of being the STRONG type in your wife's eyes WITHOUT being a complete Ogre...Not saying that MyRev is/was, just trying to put some stuff in perspective...

Anyway, carry on in peace...

Mrs. W

Great post, honey.

I would add: Many husbands spend too much energy conflict avoiding things for far too long. Strangely enough, many of them end up here (after their wife's affair where their wive's just don't think they care). Your job is NOT to avoid upsetting her completely at the expense of yourself. Sometimes conflict is good, just have to learn how to do it properly and constructively. Without lovebusters.

READ DR. HARLEY'S articles on the subject of conflict and start implementing them on your own (it's early...lead by example but she's not likely in a position to do the "conflict" exercises with you just yet).

Mr. Wondering

Thanks Mr & Mrs W.
Mr W, you really struck the chord I was looking for as far as "learning how to do it properly and constructively, without lovebusters".
I was simply looking for a little insight from others who have been through this.
I have set some boundaries. She is in NC for 6 weeks now. She is getting more apologetic and seems to be coming around a bit more as far as recognizing My feelings in this. So I do not feel like I'm a doormat. I am simply trying to plot my course carefully so as to not send her back to wanting to be with RB again.
I tried the MyRev method for months early after DDay, and it simply did not produce the desired result. My more cautious approach along with a suggestion to her that if the A didn't end, she was gone has worked much better. I am just looking for a few CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions on how to approach our next stage as we've not really done any R talk in a month and a half. Make sense?

So, MyRev - I do value a lot of what you've suggested over the last few months. It just seems that of late, your posts come off as smug. I think there is a line between constructive 2x4ing and plain insulting. I simply ask that you try to maintain a constructive approach as I think it's generally more helpful. I didn't really mean to snap at you, and I do welcome your input as long as you try not to cross the line into personal insults. I felt that your last post did just that.
We're ALL on the same team here.