I had been posting as LovingAlong before and changed my screen name lately.

I have always doubt if I have a recoverable marriage or not, and really want to listen to other people's perspective on this. I also plan to go to IC if necessary to help me figuture this out.

The details of H's A is under my sig line. It's mainly a deep emotional affair and PA also.

It's been 18 months since Dday and 9 months since H's attempted contact (phone and email), but OW didn't respond.

Upon discovery, H ended the A (after spending two nights in a hotel with OW for the very first time), but he felt he was forced to come home (I and his parents all begged him to return) and he felt that he lost this love of life and I and his parents forced him to give her up and he came back home because of his guilt to us and his pity for us (he didn't say it directly but hinted it). When he came home, he said he was dead inside and would be dead inside for the rest of his life.

It's not hard to imagine how hurt I felt over this. But I did still love him and felt that we could recovery the love we lost and had a great marriage after this.

I started to meet his EN for the first time in a very long while. He refused to talk to me about anything related to our relationsip. So I could only guess what his ENs are. I knew he felt that I was not loving, not caring of him, not having the same interests as him, overbearing, doing DJs, etc. Those he didn't tell me in calm converstaions, I just got those message from his resentful remarks when we had an episode of angry outburst.

And I knew he had strong feelings toward this OW. OW was a different race and her ways of caring and loving was very different from the rigidness our culture taught us both.

And he felt like he was the victim. The victim that was forced to give up his love and became a "human sacrifies"
(his own word) for his family. And he suffered a long 9 months withdraw period, when he was very depressed, taking AD to function normally.

OW initiated a contact 2 months after NC and it was some brief email exchange and he asked OW to take ADs also, but OW refused and wished him best of luck and seemed to break it off finally. March 07 in his depression, he tried to call and send OW email again but OW never responded. I guess from that time on, he gave up hope with her finally.

Things have changed dramatically after that in most areas. H became a great husband and father. He started to really connect with our kids and spend a lot of time with them. He started to enjoy family life and plan family vacations for us. He started to notice me and what an attractive woman I have been and what a good mother I have been and started to buy me a lot of presents. Some very expensive ones. He started to accept my affections and seems to genuinly enjoy them. He started to laugh again and sing in his showers (he had been very depressed for at least 2 years, started several months before his A, lasting all through the 9 months A, and 9 months of withdrawal afterwards). He started to feel really happy with his family again. We went back to our home country and he said he really found his root again. He started to do a lot of home improvements and bought a sauna at home for us to enjoy. He stopped most of the LBs he routinely did all through our M and started to talk softly and tenderly to me. I do feel his love, it's almost touchable when he said he wanted to go see sunset with me, and when he cooks dinner for us every weekend and told me he felt the happiest at those times...

But he never said "I love you" except in a couple of occasions when I literaly asked for those words. He never bought me a card with loving words in them. Although the culture we grew up, we never had role models for showing affections as husband and wife, I have been doing a lot after Dday. I have been showing him my genuin affection and he seems to enjoy them a lot. But he almost never initiate affection. I have to ask for a hug to get one. I have to initiate SF. I have to ask for a specific affections to get it. For example, he asked what I would want for Christmas present, and I told him I wanted a ring with some words inside. And I got a beautiful ring with "LOVE H" engraved inside. And I even asked if he would consider having a vasectomy since I hate condoms and pills, and he said yes, I would consider doing that soon.

We have been reconnected so much and sometimes I feel that I can even forget about his A for a day or two. And I truly enjoy his company and he enjoy mine. And we have great SF for the first time in our M ( our SF had always been bad and very infrequent before A, too busy with kids and I was never into it).

Life seems perfect, right? Yes if you ask him, but not for me.

We still have a lot of untouchable topics in our conversation. I still have a lot of triggers. I am still in pain and periodically I would explode and have a lot of DJs and AOs. I know it's not a good way to solve any problem, but I seem not able to control my emotions. And my emotions are still very raw.

I still have a lot of unanswered questions. Although I know the basic facts of his A, because I asked a lot of questions the week he confessed and wanted to move out, he completely shut down when he came back home. I tried numerous times to ask questions and telling them what I need, he refused to answer them. I just got several basic facts after that, and it was like pulling teeth.

The last episode was last weekend. We were under some stress because of our kitchen remodeling and it triggered me also because the beginning of his A was also the beginning of another remodeling in our home. And the final trigger was he wanted to watch some movies and I looked at one of them, it's about some man never able to forget his lover for the rest of his life even if he has a happy family, etc. He didn't buy this movie, but the relative who is doing the project gave them to us. I refused to watch the movie with him and told him that it would make me feel like leaving because if a man would always remember his lover, why should a wife be in his life. I should have enough self respect to get out of his way. Of course it's a bad converstaion, he became angry and withdrew from me. During the heat of it, I mentioned I wanted to ask questions again, and he said no I couldn't give me any answers. I should already have forgotten about the whole thing. And he has to kill himself first before he could talk about his A and his feelings. And he said he felt he would never be able to get to the place emotionally and phsycologically to answer my questions. I asked if it was shame that prevented him from going in there, and he said no.

It was very hurtful for both of us. This is one of many many times that we started by me mentioning a trigger and he being very defensive. I thought we had gone far enough for test waters this time, and I was calm and did say I may be able to watch those kind of movies with him in a couple of years, but not now. But the mere mention of his A and its consequences got him angry and withdrew. And I couldn't take it any longer.

After that night, I have been really thinking if this marriage is recoverable. I'm not saying he is not trying. Actually he is trying very hard in his own way. But there is one thing for sure, he still feels entitled and justified to have the A, and his way to recover from it for both of us is to bury it somewhere and never dig it up again.

I do not know what's his feelings about OW. That night, I even asked if his not wanting to talk about anything about the A is because he didn't want to betray the OW in his heart. I really regret saying that now because it just makes me want to give up. He didn't answer that question for me.

At least I feel that he has been honest with me and didn't tell me that he doesn't have any feelings with the OW now. He basically won't say anything. He said he would try his very best to keep our family together and I can sense that. But he also said that it's up to me to decide if he is doing enough.

And of course he is not doing enough. I feel that he is still holding strong feelings toward this OW and he just buried it somewhere and not dare to touch it. Thinking about living like this for the rest of my life is just too much to bear for me. I showed him my pain many many times through my tears and he has been doing better in comforting me. But he still doesn't get it at all. He still feels that his love with OW was real and it's just in the wrong time and he did his ultimate sacrifice in coming back to his family.

After last episode, I started to withdraw my affection. Actually we haven't been touching each other for at least 3 days and it's hard for both of us. I know if I initiate a touch, he would feel very relieved. We had a ski trip on Sunday and I was quiet for the most of the ride. He tried very hard to talk on various topics and tried to cheer me up. I could see how he felt happy and relieved when I talked a little.

But I just feel so tired now. I don't think I can settled for a marriage that part of my H's heart is in some other place, although I would get a lot of attention, care and even material stuff and even that my kids get a great dad.

He refuses to read books or go to counseling as you can guess. And he never fully get the consequences of his A also since I have always been here.

Reading books about having a fresh new start always seem to give me a little relief. I know I am an attractive woman. I am financially independent. I have two beautiful kids. But I have been with my husband from I'm 18 and I am truly a little frightened about living alone.

To be honest, H is on the surface a great husband and father now. He does so much things and has changed so much after this crisis. But I know he still has feelings for OW and he still feels guilty about hurting her. He didn't tell me those, but I think I'm 90% sure my guess is correct. He won't talk about it at all with me.

I know the decision is all on me. Only I know what I want or if I can live like this any longer. The problem is I am confused most of the time.

We are still pretty cool with each other. We avoid topics that's sensitive at this time. We get along really well. H tries all the other ways to make me happy, except to initiate affections. He seems to have great difficulty doing that. And I attribute this difficulty to his still having feelings toward OW. It really hurts me to the extend that I want to give up the whole thing often.

Is there any hope for us? I know it would devastate him if I leave. But if I stay, am I going to endure the pain of his silence for the rest of my life?

And he said he would rather kill himself than talking to me about what happened during the A, that really is killing me inside now. If he feels so strongly about it, why is he here everyday, doing all the stuff and smile and laugh and talk to me about his day and his dreams and having SF with me?? WHY??

I just can't figure out this man!! But I still love him, otherwise, I would be long gone.

Any input is greatly apprecaited...

Snow

Hi Snow,

I can only share what was happening with my H when he did similar things to what your H is doing:

He was still contacting (or wanting to contact) OW. He even lied to our MC so we quit going. The night of the 4th D-day, I told H to just go.

That night, I saw myself OK alone.

Your H may sense your fear of being alone and this may affect his behavior. More experienced members will be able to help with this.

When my H saw my strength and knew I meant business, he chose to change. I can only control myself. He had to choose change for himself. My strength and self confidence helped him choose.

It's not easy and we are still challenged (have you read my Smiles/Trials Recovery thread?) but things are getting better now that we have a new really tough MC.

My FWH says (and shows by his actions) that he is willing to do anything to help me heal. That's when recovery started for us, just after I registered here on MB a year ago.

Ace

I saw a post today about couples in recovery...I can't find it now...

It was a letter from a BS to FWS... He painted a word picture about how his wife was like a puzzle with all of the pieces... she could see the whole picture... he was like the same puzzle with only some of the pieces... and how it wasn't fair for her to have the whole picture when he only had part of the picture...

Maybe one of the veterans can find it... I can't ...

Snow, would he go to a Marriage Builders weekend?

I want to say that your description sounds very much like my marriage around this same time into recovery. My H was not open and honest and I had to drag everything out a tidbit at time. That delayed our recovery dramatically because every discovery put us back to day 1.

However, once it was all out, I was able to recover and he was able to live in peace. Are there PERTINENT FACTS about the affair he is withholding or are you wanting to rehash it? Do you feel you have the full story?

Once I felt satisfied I had the bulk of the story, I found I was in a habit of BADGERING HIM whenever I was triggered. He grew to RESENT this grilling and I can't say I blame him. This is something Dr Harley recommends AGAINST, because it is a HUGE LOVEBUSTER that drains love deposits at a critical time.[I don't know if this is what is happening here, but it is what happened in my case]

I stopped doing this when a well meaning confidant said to me: "Mel, you are just LOOKING for grievances now." She was right. I stopped doing that.

Around that time, I caught onto the FIFTEEN HOURS rule. My H misidentified his top need, but we accidentally stumbled on it. When I went on motorcycle rides with him and didn't love bust him, we became very close. This man who was not very romantic, not very affectionate, has grown into a very affectionate, passionate man BECAUSE I LEARNED TO MEET HIS TOP NEEDS and learned to stop draining the bank with lovebusters. But it took a long time and much trial and error.

I wish I had paid more close attention AT FIRST instead of doing everything wrong the first time and learning the hard way. Had I done it Dr.Harley's way the first time, I suspect we would have recovered much sooner. Even so, we have a fabulous marriage today and are more and more in love every year. So I know it does work.

Snow are you in counseling? If not do you think it might help YOU. Sometimes in understanding yourself you can begin to come to grips with him.

However, once it was all out, I was able to recover and he was able to live in peace. Are there PERTINENT FACTS about the affair he is withholding or are you wanting to rehash it? Do you feel you have the full story?

This is a very important question. Because Once I felt satisfied I had the bulk of the story, I found I was in a habit of BADGERING HIM whenever I was triggered. He grew to RESENT this grilling and I can't say I blame him. This is a HARD habit to break when YOU feel so bad/hurt. I have started to recognize when the triggers hit that is where I go and is NOT good for either of us.

(((snow))) praying for peace for you.

I found it...

Here's a link:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;gonew=1#UNREAD

Here's the Letter...


This is a classic letter ... applicable when your adulterous spouse is not willing to disclose the details of the affair ... but wants to recover the marriage ...

Here ya go!

"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

hope this helps...

Thank you Ace for responding.
I know for sure he is not in contact or thinking of contacting at this time. At least all evidence point to this conclusion and he is getting more open and honest.

When he was thinking of contact or holding back his urge to contact, which was the first 9 months after Dday, his behavior was very different. Now he is genuinely wanting to rebuild our M and he cares about me a great deal. He also has a lot of fear. He just has this great fear to go back to rethink anything. He fears me asking any questions. He couldn't go back because he felt too painful because he felt he truly loved OW and OW loved him and he felt he hurt her deeply and hurt himself deeply also.

As painful as this can be, should I just leave this alone since I can never change other person's feelings?
Even if he falls deeply in love with me again, can I live in peace knowing that he still viewed his A as a true deep love? I just have great difficulty accepting this and I think this is our root problem. He once told me that we don't need to have the same view on everything...

I see we still have a very long way to go if we both choose recovery. I am just getting tired at this time.

Snow

I believe your marriage is recoverable, Snow.

I don't have much to add, as Mel covered what I was going to suggest.

If your FWH has not out and out said that he is still in love with OW, then you are guessing and assuming, fueling a rage that could be totally misplaced. Why torture yourself like that? If you can let this go right now, and continue on with meeting EN's, one day, he may just tell you what you want to know out of the blue. For now, though, the more you question him, the higher the probability of those walls going back up.

oh, and STOP THE AO's!!!

When you are feeling that resentment, try to figure out why on your own, for it is YOUR anger to deal with. See if it has legs, if it's real, or if it's fabricated by your own ASSUMPTIONS and CONJECTURE. If it's the latter, then you are probably triggered and letting it take over.

Hi Mel:

Thank you so much for posting to me and your post got me think a lot.

Yes, I know how to make him very happy: to meet his ENs and not talk about the past ever again. I don't even need to meet a lot of his ENs, just my not mentioning the past and being in a good mood for a long stretch will get him so happy and he would do anything to keep it.

The problem is I can't be happy with that. I can't envision years from now, there are still secrets that we can't talk about openly, namely what happened during those dark months when he was so depressed at home but fostering a deep emotionally connection with OW. I just can't evision me still be there with him.

I do know the basics and sometimes I felt that I may not need other details. OW was former coworker. Now she works in the different company. I have her name, photo and address, phone number etc. I know where she works now. I know when this whole thing started and when it's ended. I saw thousands to txt msg entries on his cell phone recoreds (but not the contents) and I can guess what they did: talking on the phone or txt every day, occasionally eating lunch together and sometimes even eating dinner together. H always came home for the night though, never missed one night and H told me that she still lived with her parents at the age of 30 and I verified that also.

And I know H wanted to break off and that's why OW left the company in the middle of their A. But they rekindled again not long after. OW sometimes got crazy and refused to go home and H said one night he almost brough her to our house because otherwise she could end up wondering on the street. It's kind of fatal attraction kind of OW. Also OW has heart problems and could not be in too much emotional distress.

All those info H told me by himself to show me what a great "love" they had when he begged me to let him move out with her. So I do have a near full story of what happened.

The thing is he never talked about it after he decided to recommit to me. And he refused to answer any questions after that. What else do I want to know? I guess all those trivial details I don't really NEED, but H's refuse to answer is that causing me a lot of resentments. Those questions like where did they meet, how often, what did they talk about, when did he decided to leave (he didn't decide until the last month or so which I'm pretty sure according to his behavior at home) and what promoted him to reach that decision, was it OW's desparation (he hinted that), or was it that he saw no hope at all at home ( he made some last ditch try and now I felt he wanted to test if I still loved him at all, but I failed to see his signals at that time). Of course there are a lot more questions. What they did when he spent the night with her in the hotel after he moved out? When pressed, he said he didn't have SF with her...I wanted to believe him, but can I? You know this guy could never lie to me, even all the things he told me after Dday I could all verifiy to be true, so I truly want to belive him on this, but how could I verifiy this?? Or is it going to make a difference at all??

So you see, there are a lot of questions in my head. But most of the time, seeing him so loving and trying so hard to rebuild our M, some of the questions seem not so important. But my ability to contain my resentments only last that long and whenever there is a trigger, boom, I said something and we are back at square one. He would get angry and blame me for not able to stop digging and I would tell him I couldn't live like this without him answering all my questions. He feels guilty about this too. He would be extra nice and attentive to me when I get upset, but he just can't seem to help me on this.

I know reading together or going to a seminar or MC would definitely help us, but H is very opposed to all those. His notion is that yes the A was morally wrong, but he couldn't help it and it was true love, but it was the past now, let's move on and forget about the whole thing. Can I really accept this approch and move on??

I'm thinking maybe I have some issues too and I plan to go to counselling myself. At least figure out how to break out this unhealthy pattern of destruction cycle. I want to try it for the sake of my kids.

Am I wrong in thinking this way?

Snow

Thank you so much Amazing.
The letter says a lot of what I'm feeling now. I will probably change it a bit and use my own words and send him as a letter and see what happenes...
Thanks again.

Snow

Thanks SL.

I read your post the other day about your H being pessimistic. Mine also. And he loved watching movies with tragic endings. I feel that it takes just so much more for men with these kind of personality to pull out of darkness they made for themselves.

But I recognize that he is changing in this aspect also. He becomes much more optimistic lately. He truly becomes a family man that I dreamed about.

I recognize that I might be making a lot of assumptions and I am using that to hurt myself.

Maybe it's time for me to seriously consider going to counseling myself. Just to figure out a way to deal with my own uncontrollable emotions.

I'm so glad you are so rooted and headed to a good place. Maybe I am just too weak for this kind of challenge in life.
I thought I was a strong woman, even H looked at me for strength, how can I be so weak like this?

I have a huge codependency issues also. I couldn't even sleep well without H holding me. I'm trying to break that at least.

I am seriously considering going to counselling just by myself. Do you think that's a good idea?

Thank you so much, SL. I hope we can truly get to a better place soon.

Snow

snow_white, have you and your H ever discussed the subject of forgiveness? Has he ever asked for your forgiveness for his A? If so, how have you responded? Do you think you have forgiven him?

Snowy,

I do think that you need to find a way to understand your emotions, and learn to control them a bit better. I understand it, but have been learning how to let go of much of the resentment. I was building things up in my mind. I would blame it all on UNANSWERED questions, but the truth was, I wasn't asking the RIGHT questions.

I no longer am focused on the affair. That is over. What our problem is NOW, is between us, and our poor ways of communicating.

REading about codependency, and how to break it could be very helpful to you; it has been to me.

I don't think there is anything wrong with having your H hold you, so long as you are not relying on him to make it all better. HE can't. He can't make it right, either. What he did was wrong, nothing can change that. Letting go of the past is hard to do when you are so fearful that it is going to rear it's ugly head again, but it's one of the best things I've done so far.

That's not to say that I haven't taken a lesson or two from the past, but I have walked thru the anger and resentment, and left it behind. THis was work that I did LARGELY on my own. I felt that I could handle it on my own, but would go to a counsellor if I felt it was needed. So far, so good.

mvg:

Thank you so much. I am seriously considering going to counselling myself, just for ME. I have already checked with my company's insurance and it seems it should cover some of the cost.

I don't feel that I'm satisfied with the whole picture. It's not because of the information I haven't got, it's because my H's attitude towards it. He never could go into places that's not emotionally comfortable for him just to help me. I am not even sure if it's too much to ask for actually, I mean for him to go into places that's emotionally painful for him just to help me.

I did tell him about my trigger calmly, and I didn't show my anger at first. But his reaction just caught up with me and got me so mad and I couldn't control my emotions very well. But it was not like I was calling names or anything, I just told him I couldn't live like this, etc etc. And he withdrew and I kept on talking and he withrew more. I can see how I should change the dance, it happened too many times already. Either I have to mean what I said, just leave
him, or figure out a way to stay and make it better.

Thanks for your caring words. It means a lot to me.
I'm glad you are doing well and keep the positive vibes here.

Snow

ManInMotion:

No we never discussed forgiveness. Actually we never discussed anything about his infidelity. If I bring anything up, he would either withdraw or become angry.

At the very beginning though, I told him I could forgive him before he decided to recommit. I truly felt that way.I felt I had it in me to forgive since I saw his love and I saw this main in pain and still decided to recommit to his family and I told him I could forgive him.

But I never truly forgive I guess. I read it somewhere that trying to forgive is like peeling an onion, the more you get deeper, the harder it gets.

He never asked for forgiveness. He has never brough out it at all, never. It's like some really dark hole for both of us and we feel each other's pain, it's real painful and we see it in each other's eyes and body language, but we could never discuss it.

Thank you for your thoughts. I know if I tell him I completely forgive him, he would be elated. But he couldn't even asking for my forgiveness.

Snow.

from a website http://www.celebratelove.com/forgive.htm




This is along the lines of how I feel about forgiveness. I'm not waiting for others to ask for forgiveness, I'm working toward forgiving, without necessarily speaking it. If I'm asked for forgiveness, then I MAY voice it, but, for me, working toward forgiveness allows me to let go of resentment, for it has been poisoning me for so long. My work toward forgiveness is not about excusing behaviors, but acceptance of what was done, and healing from it.

Also, there are people that have wronged me that are no longer in my life, either by distance or death. I have or am working on forgiveness, even without being asked, because *i* will feel better and be released from it.

You cannot predict the future, but holding on to resentment does not protect you from further pain, or further wrongs against you; it just builds walls and barriers against progress toward the good in your life, and keeps you closed from the good to come, IMHO.

What if you presented it to him as "I understand you have been able to deal with it and are at peace. I have not been able to fully deal with it or find a place of peace. I want to be able to put it all behind ME, but have been unable to do so. Are you willing to go with me to ________ in order to help me learn the tools or gain the understanding that will help me overcome what I am dealing with."

If both of you had been in a car accident, and his broken bones were all healed in 6 months, the condition of *his* "health" would have nothing to do with the fact that your head injury hasn't fully recovered yet. And going with you to the "doctor" is nothing more than an indication that *you* are still healing from the injury and that his attendance might show him how to 'change the bandage' for you so that you *can* reach a place of full healing.

Hi Snow_White (great name!)

I hear tons of resentment in your story. I hear you feeling that your H has hidden behind a 'love of my life' fantasy and has used this as an excuse not to be ashamed of his behaviour seek your forgiveness. Moreover, I hear your fear that he will always 'mourn' the 'sacrifice' he made in giving her up and that you will be the second best whom he stayed with to save his family.

The truth is something very different and in your heart you must know that.

Firstly, because you have not been able to discuss what happened, you are making assumptions about his feelings. His bahaviour tells a quite different story from the one you are imagining.

Secondly, there is no 'love of my life' except in fairy tales - the addictive feeling of being in love makes you think that the person you are with is your soulmate but in truth the bonds of a happy marriage are far stronger and more lasting than the chemical high of an affair.

Thirdly (and perhaps most importantly) because you have not had an open discussion together on the subject, you have not had a chance to discuss this woman together. The truth is that OPs have their own agendas which certainly does not include looking out for the best interests of their affair partners which would be a normal definition of love. My H had his personal revalation when discussion with me made him realise that she was seeking to destroy his family even though she knew (because he told her) that his family was the most important thing in his life. OPs are sleazy, manipulative individuals, often unbalanced sometimes plain crazy. This OW sounds distinctly off the wall wanting to come to your house! I would take the heart problem story with a huuuuge pinch of salt.

The truth is that your H would have figured this out in the end and he can figure this out now with you to help him if you can find a way to let him feel safe while he talks. That's where Joseph's letter is so great.

I just told him I couldn't live like this, etc etc. And he withdrew and I kept on talking and he withrew more. I can see how I should change the dance, it happened too many times already. Either I have to mean what I said, just leave
him, or figure out a way to stay and make it better.

(((SNOW)))

I really the whole forgiveness issue for me is more in line with what SL said above.

Have you considered what graplin stated? I would pray that your H would do that for you and your M. If nothing else the IC for YOU IMO would be so helpful.

Take care.

Thank you everybody for posting to me and helping me keep a clear head.
Now I realize how much personal strength I need to gain to keep on this journey.

H keeps being attentive and did so much during the weekend to "please me". But he just couldn't be affectionate. At night we usually snuggle together, but for the latest 3 nights I stopped moving closer to him and he couldn't move closer to me either. But yesterday I swallow my pride and moved closer and we had a very nice snuggle. I felt that H really wanted it too, but I just can't figure out why he can't just initiate. Sometimes he does initiate, that's when I'm cheerful and happy. At the time that I felt sad and gloomy, he would just leave me alone. It really hurts.

While he was holding me last night, I told him that I intended to go to counselling myself. He didn't withdraw. Usually when I mention anything related to the topic he doesn't like, he would become angry and withdraw. Last night he didn't and he kept holding me and we had a nice sleep.

I feel better today. Some hope comes back. I realized again that it's that time of the months and my hormone was also acting against me. But I do want to gain some control on my emotions and I really want to find more clarity and deal with some of my issues, so I'm going to commit to some counseling just for ME. At the same time, I will try to keep my spirit up...

Thank you everybody. I will keep you updated.

Snow