I couldn't go to sleep but I will try to after this post.

Thanks for the support you guys. Windstopped is going to feel emasculated and even more hopeless though.

I am trying to tell it like it is. It is only my side.

These are more quotes from other emails in a short period of time this evening........



......



......



......



........





*end of quotes*


What do you think guys? I wished TST knew my story. I see him as a truly remorseful FWS as well and he's a guy.

I feel numb. I'll be going through the motions during school tommorow. I hope I learn something.

Oh, and he's probably going to be very angry at me for posting his e-mails without his permission.

I feel desparate enough to do it because I really, really need to what everyone thinks.

I expressed hurt over the fact that I felt dissed today by not at least saying good morning to me in an email after being so hurt yesterday. He didn't email me until 5:30 pm but I emailed him a few hours earlier. Then he asked me "if I wanted a running commentary of his day". I told him I just wanted him to be transparent. I especially feel that way since he's gone.

I expressed that I was uncomfortable that he's getting comfort from two wayward personalities, his step mom (living with right now) and sister (who he spent time with today). I expressed concern over the "go our separate ways". And you can't have an angry outburst in an email. You can't yell. Well, you can I guess but I didn't. He left me guessing on some stuff so I have told him how I thought he felt about me.

I probably did tell him once that I didn't think he had in him to recover because he didn't want to do the work.

I have told him many times that he is doing all the right things almost for the marriage but he's avoiding the recovery steps that I need. I have thanked him for the times he's done things that were helpful to me. I've also pointed out where he wasn't hitting the mark. He sees it as me complaining I believe. I think he may have said that in one of his emails.

It's a mess.

Hi mopey!

So... I read all about him and where his thoughts are.

But how's that mopey pie? How about this: have a good healthy breakfast, hunt for that new job you've been thinking about, go out and see a comedy with a girlfriend, drink some nice tea while you write in a journal, get some rest (try melatonin an hour before bedtime, it works and it's natural), and forget about him for TODAY. Just for today, focus on you.

{{{mopey}}}

Gosh, I'd like to see you stay in school. Is there any way that you can afford to do that? No matter what hubby decides?

Well, that sums it up perfectly, doesn't it? He feels very comfortable chasing other women because he is perfectly confident that no matter what he does, you will always be there.

So what reason does he have to change what he does?? With the comment above, he just TOLD you that he sees no reason to change his behaviour at all! And you are still hoping he'll change his behaviour why - ??

I haven't read your whole story, but have you ever gone to a deep dark Plan B? What do you think would happen if you did?
Mulan

Oh, mopey - you wonder? you WONDER?

Hon, he makes it clear every minute of every day that yes he DOES think that low of you. Look at his behaviour!

You in No Way deserve that kind of treatment, but he clearly got it in his head right at the start that there was no need for him to respect you, value you or protect you, because you were always going to be there anyway. So why should he bother?

And he hasn't.

This is called "being taken for granted". In the worst possible way.

Turning this around is like trying to turn around the Titanic *after* it's already hit the iceberg.

Again: Have you ever gone to a pitch-black Plan B for a few months? That's the one and only thing that *might* have some effect on a person like this.

*Might.*

But you can be sure that absolutely NOTHING else will.

As you have seen.

(((mopey)))

Mulan, Believer, Mojo, SR, BK and Lala,

Thank you so much for the responses. I can't take the time to reply right now but I'll get on later after school. I didn't sleep well last night and only have enough time to get ready for school.

Here's an e-mail I just got from Windstopped.....




It didn't make a dent in my frozen heart though.

And SR, I have been working on the pie.

Hi Mopey,

You are allowing yourself to be manipulated. Here is where I see you getting roped in:



Blameshifting, in hopes that you will take the bait and think something is wrong with your perception. It also serves to keep you busy trying to better yourself (being less negative, complaining less and working on stopping your selfish childish ways). It's a dog and pony show to keep you focused on what is wrong with you so that it will prevent you from seeing what is wrong with him.

La La said this:



I agree and here is proof that the above statement is true:





I agree. That is what he tells himself (and you) in order to justify taking away your right to make a choice for yourself that was based on the facts.



That is his choice. He isn't a child. If he feels emasculated, it the result of his actions that leads him there - NOT because you voiced something that you didn't like.

It's a manipulative tool and here is how it works:

He responds to your complaint by telling you/acting as though he feels like less of a man (to try to make you feel guilty) and then he either implies or states the he feels hopeless and like giving up. This is to play on your fears -the fear being that he will leave and that you weren't really good enough to fight for (which is not the truth).

It is the belief that you have some control or can somehow get him to change if only you can keep him from feeling emasculated and hopeless that is the bait here.


He is right.



Translation: It is your fault that I can't do it and it will be your fault if I give up...but I'm not saying it's your fault.



Translation: I am such a kind and noble guy for making this generous sacrifice and you are just unpleasable.

Mopey, you must see that that statement is a load of crap because someone who wants to have a good marriage would not give up and try to blame you because he did.



Sounds more like he's tired of HEARING that he is hurting you. If his goal were to stop hurting you, he would be focused on learning how to stop and you would see the fruit.



Translation: If you will no longer take my abuse quietly and allow me to continue being selfish, controlling and manipulative without complaining, there's nothing in it for me.



Don't express it. Not only does he not care, he was TRYING to hurt you as punishment.

Move your buttons.



This is said to keep you baited. In order for the manipulative, passive-aggressive games to continue, he needs an opponent. If he senses that you will no longer play, he will try to keep you in the game by playing on your hope that he will change.

For as long as you are willing to play the game, he has no incentive to change.

Like Mulan said in Froz's thread yesterday:


Stop playing the game. Move your buttons. Disengage from his "bait and switch" bullchit. You can do this!!

And the hurtful comment that he made to me yesterday? He said that "even if he told me the truth about sleeping with, and trying to sleep with other women, that I would have probably married him anyway".

Translation: I can do whatever I want because you have NO boundaries.

Since you cannot change him, you are left with changing yourself.

It might not be too late to make some and stick with them.

JMHO
committed

Mopey
I agree w/C&L. These are wise words. I have read through the last 4 pages of this thread and Windstopped's thread. What I see is that both of your are busy at pointing fingers at the other one. Remember when that happens there are 3 pointing right back at you.

I share this point with you because in order to break that vicious cycle you have to make that move for yourself.

U 2 are not at the point where POJA or even RH c/b implemented. You both have a ways to go because right now only the hurt is talking.

Lack of trust does this to people and kills marriages.

I realize you are fed up and tired. All the more reason to consider plan B for your sake.

Also consider the fact that he is posting is a good thing. Don't expect him t/b posting nice stuff. What he is attempting to disengage himself from isn't nice and it won't be easy. There is a history of bad habits which HE must over come.

On the other hand you have a history of disappointments of which your BS side is getting quite tired. Is that a close summation?


To rectify this, read C&L's post again and go back to read Frozen's last response to you. Then consider your personal and M boundaries. Let us know what they are. Expect Windstopped to learn of them as well. Expect him NOT to like some of them and wonder about others. Don't follow his mood, those are HIS moods. You s/b concentrating how to make Mopey a better person (in other words, finish your plan A).

Then when your mind and heart are in sync and you can make rational decisions, then consider plan B. Before you do, take a look at the book Love must be tough by Dobson. It will help.

Why go to plan B if the A is ended? Because the WS attitude may still be around and it is still affecting you and your family.

So realize you can't fix him. Only he can. He can't fix you, only you can. So work on what each other has within their control (i.e. fixing themselves). Then meet each other's true (not selfish needs). Meet them with the purpose of truly caring for the other without expecting anything back in return.

It will change your mindset. So that later even if you decide the M is done, you can move forward with less hurt and more control of you and your family. Or you may both be pleasantly surprised how much you truly want the M and find yourself on the same side fighting for your family. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

I imagine you're probably pretty scared. I know I am. But if you (and I) can isolate the fears that are preventing you from setting limits on control, manipulation and hurtful behavior, you (and I) can focus your efforts on ways to overcome the fears - something you CAN change, instead of relying on hope as a plan and placing your safety, protection and well-being in the hands of something completely outside your control, thus making your safety and protection reliant upon his changing.

Hi everybody,

Thanks to all who responded. I just got home a little bit ago and read all of the replys. I'm going to let some of them sink in and mull over before I respond.

I haven't communicated with Windstopped today. I did not send him a reply to his e-mail this morning. I need to think.

I did however get my test from last week back today and I made a 92%. Yay! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> BUT, she told us that she was just getting our feet wet and the next ones will be harder. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> But she's nice though and a good professor. I talked her into giving the class credit for two of the problems today that were confusing...lol.....She's a softy and the class was appreciative and it made my grade go up to an A. YAY.

My stomash is in knots so I'm trying not to think too much about my sitch at the moment. I need to focus on something else right now or SR will be getting onto me about my pie. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for all the feedback you guys.

I am hoping you can find a way to stay in school-- with or without Puffy.

Your husband is still a wayward and his responses are raising enormous red flags for me. I would also hear the 'oh, I keep hurting you, maybe I can't make you happy' ****** during our false recovery-- because he was STILL on the make and in contact with other women. He had a particular one in his sights and he had to work to convince me to get off the island (we were stationed overseas in Guam) and go back to school before he could make his move. Dumb me.... I fell for it gladly because a part of me had just been torn up so much I was looking for an excuse to get away from everything.

My FWH was/IS differant from your husband because he had no trouble manning up when he hit rock bottom and saw what he was doing. He was PROACTIVE in healing ME. In healing the MARRIAGE. None of this bullchit about himself and 'me me me me' whining like we're seeing from Puffy. He came out to everyone-- even my parents who hated his guts!-- and told everyone it was HIS fault, HIS choices, and HIS responsibility to do ANYTHING I asked, even if it went against his instincts. He had always hated the idea of counselors, but HE made the appointments and he went WITH NO WHINING, NO MUTTERING, NO COMPLAINING. There was no gazing at his bellybutton and going through the motions. There was NEVER any nastiness from him because he LOVED me and I was in a great amount of pain.

Now, he did hate that I was extremely paranoid in the beginning-- but he'd get over his annoyance super quick-- we're talking in moments-- and come to me and give me hugs and reassurance. He absolutely understood that HE had EARNED my distrust and he had to earn it back.

Its almost 4 years in recovery and he still does not complain when I have a bad moment (or lately, its been nightmares... this board is causing me some probelms...KLDs thread really got to me). He reassures me and we move on.

I am with the others.... you are being majorly manipulated. Please do not fall for it!!!

And that is the mind shift I've talked to you about. It is like he is being drug towards what is right instead of walking upright to it. When I was in this phase, my expression to my DH was "it's all about YOU, isn't it." All about his pain and his emotions and his triggers, and why can't we just focus on why I am hurting and blah blah blah. I would then do "all the right things" for a couple/few weeks and then he would have a bad day and I was like "OMG-here we go again." It was like I had to make an effort/sacrifice just to do the right thing, and then even after I did, I turned around and rolled my eyes about it.

This is what must change. I know that mindset from a mile away now. What mojodiva is saying is what it takes to move beyond that stage. It is what is necessary for you to start to heal and trust him again.

But, back to the beginning again-you cannot change him. You can only change yourself. If you are tired of waiting for his epiphany (if it ever does come), then by all means, be done with it. But you cannot do anything to him to make him change. So, that is why I have been preaching to you about taking care of yourself. Making the list of things to be thankful for, working on the pie, working on aspects of yourself that you feel need improvement. You aren't doing these things FOR HIM. You are doing them for YOU, mopey. Maybe if you come from that angle instead of "why should I change just to see if he will throw me some love?" Indeed-why should/would you! You shouldn't! Do it for your health, your well-being, your happiness, with no expectations of him...

Hey guys,

I'm still over here thinking and mulling and won't be ready to respond to the hard questions tonight. I agree with a lot of what has been said and I wished that I could see that mindshift. It's what I've been looking for as well. And it's kinda scary because I don't know if I'll ever see it. I need a hero at this point. I don't think I have the energy right now to be one myself except for to not make any rash decisions and work on me. It's too hard for me to work on the marriage right now. However, I did e-mail him back and let him know where I stand, which is "I don't know where I stand right now".


Windstopped and I were suppose to have a joint MC session this week to maybe help stop the madness and put some boundaries in place but I am simply not ready for that conversation. I may be asking for help with my boundaries because at this point, I'm not sure what all I can put in there. I do have an IC appt this Thursday so I can ask her as well.

He did send me one more piece that I asked for on my recovery list earlier in the evening and made himself available to me if I needed to e-mail him or even come over to hold me. I don't know when I'd be ready to go there again. I need to feel SAFE. But I did appreciate it still.

And as much as I appreciate every one of you, and the clowns, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I am asking that you guys please refrain from some of the nicknames for Windstopped. I know how easy that is to do, I am guilty as hayul, but it's bothering me. I would hope that he would step up and protect me from that as well. Yall understand, right? At least there's a possibity he could be a bonafide "F"WS one day. Chit happens. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

So, in the mean time, I have been working on pieces of my pie. My pie is starting out with only a few things for me to focus on right now. Maybe in a month, I'll add more. spirituality, marriage, family, career, health and fitness, and home.

Right now I am being with and scheduling more time with my kids. However, I really need to add my extended family to it more as well. I've sorta been hiding from them unless it's a planned family event. No one in my family knows of this mess and I just told my Mom right before Windstopped moved out.

I have an appt this week to work on my education piece. I'm mapping my career.

With Windstopped's latest storm that blew through here this weekend, I never did get the resume done. It's kinda hard to focus when your spouse says they "want to go their separate ways", again. I really need to get on top of that. I'll probably have to work retail or something to be flexible with my school hours. I'd really like to have some kind of job, like a parking lot attendent (lol) where I don't have to think too much....lol...and maybe even get some homework done.

And oh yeah, Believer and Mojo, I definitely want to finish school. I think (lol) after this semester, I'll be a senior. I'm getting a degree in Business Management and hopefully certified for Project Mgmt.


LaLa.....First thing on the list. Bravery. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LaLa, you and Mojo described it to a T in my opinion and that mindset is what I need, and have needed, to heal.

I do know your story and I have read Windy's thread as well and will post to him when I have more time.

I think he is still full of [censored]..... He is doing the same things over and over and over again expecting different results - That's the definition of INSANITY, not RECOVERY!

Because of his excuses to still need to "learn more about himself",and then maybe be honest - you are suffering the same pain over and over and over again - Again the definition of Insanity.
Step out of the insanity completly until he does the work he was asked to do at the begining of all this mess. He is dragging his feet (maybe to chickensh!t to end the M so he is trying to force you to?? I don't know, but it's pityful).

Look - he was/is a member of AA and still after all these years has never worked any of their steps yet, so why would he work MB's or any others???? Bad track record!!
The payoff is that he gets to be the victim in his own mind... So very sad.

Both of your threads bring tears to my eyes!

Hiya Mopes,

I've been through about 3 cigs reading this.

I'm so, so sorry things have taken a turn for the worse for you.

I know how you're feeling. This is just the worst, isn't it?

Maybe it's a good thing you guys are separated now. I don't know. I just think there is only so much one person can do, and then you just simply give up.

I also never thought I could cry so much in a couple of years. Cry, cry, cry.

Thank goodness, it has subsided.

Mr. RLT continues with his counseling and his meetings. He apologized, sincerely for his behavior a couple of weeks ago. I think he just feels backed into a corner and the old patterns emerge.

Since then, I haven't had any meltdowns, but it doesn't mean that I won't. I'm sure I will. We'll see how he does with handling it.

He's doing a lot of of what PM's FWS is doing. He is being very attentive and kind. He calls me just to say hi, or texts me to see how I'm doing. He is also painting the bedroom for me. And, he's trying to get a handle of the finances, which he obliterated during his A.

So, I can't ask for much more. But at the same time, there is always this little voice inside my head saying, "He's tricking you, RLT." I worry, constantly, about being betrayed again, and not just with OW's, but with lies and deceptions.

I can't help it. My whole life has been pounced upon with trickery.

Anyway, Mopey, you can only do the best you can. No one would blame you if you couldn't do this anymore. You ARE A HERO for it.

Don't ever forget that.

RLT

TST,

I cannot tell you how grateful I am to have a christian FWS, who I feel "gets it" posting to me. I am very grateful to everyone. But it's also good to have a perspective from someone who has been in my H's shoes (not nearly as bad though) and who is also a man because men and women are different in some ways and I need all perspectives. And might I add, I admire you for your humbleness and see you as truly remorseful and making amends. Thank you for taking the time to know my story.

I saw that you had posted to my husband and my heart skipped a beat. It was an answer to prayer. I didn't just "wish" about it, I prayed for it as well. Thank you again.



This is what I'm trying to do now. We are separated. I only communicate with him via e-mail. I don't feel I can do less than that or he wouldn't be able to show me what I need to see from him. My problem at this point is being satisfied with finally getting those things from him after it has caused so much pain. Him giving me those things now after having to leave our home feels like appeasement to me and not something he's doing out of love or remorse. And it's not just those projects I am looking for, it's the mindset.



I have come to the same conclusion often. It's hard not to when his words don't match his actions. Not to mention he's cheated on me since day one and he has a "image" problem, imo. He leaves me guessing so I never know what his motivations are. And unfortunately, since he's lied so much and appeased so much, I don't know what to believe. It is insane. I have told him the very same thing you quoted above and of course *I* was then emasculating him and not making him feel safe. Sigh. I have a feeling that it will be I who will have to make the hard moves.

It's excruciating to feel really loved by him one minute and feel he could care a less the next. It is confusing.

I think you pretty much summed up to Windstopped what I've been saying since right after d-day. He "bruises easily" and I hope all of this honesty doesn't send him running for more cover.

Lol...I've been through waaaay more than that....I'm sorry it got you all worked up. Ya know, I keep thinking that God is upstairs "watching the show"....lol....An angry person with a serial adulterer.....action packed drama there for sure.



Thanks RLT. I've had knots is my stomach for almost two weeks now on and off. I do find peace though when I "letitgo" sometimes and find peace that I can control part of this outcome. Yes, it is the worst on most days though. I have been trying to work on other things that need my attention but I've sure been drawn to this board today.



Something had to change so yes, it is good in our situation. I haven't given up on the marriage yet but I have given up trying to control anything but me.



Amen to that Sista! I never thought it was possible to cry that much. Geez.




I am so glad he gave you that apology and that he's still seeking help. Any noticable improvements in the compassion and empathy area? And you don't even have to explain about the backed in the corner thing. Do you also see similarities in your situation to Frozen and Patriot's? Or maybe I'm off base.



That's awesome that he's doing all of those things. Did he do any of that previously?

It's hard to trust our perceptions now since we were duped for so long. I do hope I can see more clearly now. I think my radar is finely tuned though.

You're a hero to me too RLT. Thanks and it was really good to hear your update.