Hey everybody,

I feel really bad for not answering all you wonderful people who have been concerned and replied to me yet. I've had a rough week and an even rougher weekend. I wanted to take some time to think about the suggestions because I am taking them all very seriously.

Windstopped has been a lot more caring this weekend and I am grateful for that. He sent me a another piece that was on my recovery list and it was healing for me. I do wish I could have had it awhile back, but better late than never I guess.

I also wanted to thank all the people who have been posting to Windstopped. I am grateful. And all the BSs that have been posting on the healing thread he started have been wonderful. I can definitely relate to everything that's been said so far.

I have another, even bigger, test coming up in a few days and I haven't started yet so I'll be concentrating on that, hopefully, over the next few days along with everyday stuff.

And for my thread, I'd like to share for posterity's sake what my FWH thinks of his "other women" now. These are letters he wrote to them, not mailed, to show me what he would say if he had a chance to talk to them now. It was important for me to know how he feels about them now. Here they are.....

***********

Internet PA #2 online chick,


What I did with you was one of the most horrific assaults possible on a marriage. I was a pig to my wife and family and actually thought it wasn’t a big deal…at the time. It was a big deal. The level of nastiness required to consider it remotely “ok” disgusts me when I think about it now.


Think about it for a minute. A married man engaging in sexual fantasy over the internet. I don’t know why I ever thought it was something I wanted to do. I have a lovely wife, who loves me, wanting to make my life joyful. I robbed her of the opportunity to fill my needs by allowing someone else to.


Regarding the e-mails we exchanged. I realize they were not sexual, nor all that personal, but it was a communication that kept a door open for other possibilities. Work related problems, and personal matters are things I should have been sharing with my wife exclusively. Once again, I potentially robbed her of the chance to be in my life by not needing to share that stuff with her.


One of the things I used to tell myself was that you were, in general, a decent person. I realize now that decent people have more respect for themselves and others. That respect would not allow someone to engage in cyber sex with a known married man. The value of respect would generate a huge red flag. That also goes for me. I had no self-respect, no respect for my wife and family, and no respect for you. You were simply an object used to gratify my desire for escape from real life. Nothing more.


I’m very happy to have removed you from my thoughts when I did.


Windstopped

*************


Internet EA/PA #1 online "in luv" chick,


I’m very embarrassed and disgusted with myself, that I got involved with someone like you.


I can now understand why you chose to live your life behind a computer screen. Reality would be too harsh for someone so terribly embarrassed about their life.


I wonder if your kids know you deny them in order to get yourself off. I hope they haven’t been affected by their mother in any emotional way. God forbid one grows up like you.


I believe you are one of the nastiest people I’ve run across in my life time.


Get help…..really.

Windstopped

*************


Gross neighbor chick he kissed while drunk shortly after we were married,


To this day I’m still bothered by the fact that I kissed you. It actually helps me stay sober.


I know for a fact I wouldn’t have considered it without being incredibly drunk. It’s a sad fact of my life that I allowed myself to do that. It’s also sad I had so little respect for myself, my marriage, and family. They didn’t deserve any of it.


If you happen to see me in public at some point, please act like you don’t see me. I’ll do the same.

Windstopped


*******************

Supposed "friend" who he boinked while we were dating chick,

The fact that I had sex with you is disgusting for me to remember. Not only because I had a girlfriend, but because I think you’re a disgusting person. Please believe, it would not have happened had I been sober. It’s something that helps me stay sober now.


By doing it, I betrayed my girlfriend. I believe she may have thought of you as a friend too. Considering this, we both know that isn’t true. It’s not something a friend or boy-friend would do.


I’m ashamed of what I’ve done, I hope you are too.

Windstopped

******************

Ex GF who he boinked right before we were married slutty chick,

I made a terrible choice in meeting with you while in another committed relationship. That choice started a chain of bad choices that ended with us having sex. It’s the worst thing I could have done to my girl friend/fiancé at the time and now. I made it worse by lying and covering it up. That removed my soon to be wife’s choice of seeing me for who I was and being able to decide whether she still wanted to marry me.


I also made choices to visit [censored]’s Wings knowing you might have been there. While I wasn’t attempting to “be” with you again, it was damaging to my marriage simply having that contact. There will always be a question of future intent from my wife’s perspective. Rightly so too, based on my past choices, who’s to say I wouldn’t make the same bad choices again.


While I am responsible for the things I’ve done, I also believe you were aware I was in a committed relationship. You made choices of your own that show ugly character traits. I’m sure you would consider another woman sleeping with your man a tramp at the very least. Considering the shoe is on your foot that makes you a tramp.


I hope that I don’t run into you again. If I do, I will pretend I don’t know you. I expect you to have enough respect for my family, and yourself, to do the same.


Winstopped

**************

*end of letters*


That's it for now folks. Thank you so much for the support. Back to the books for me.

Mopey - if you now have ALL the information about the PAST, I really suggest you let the past stay in the past.

Dwelling on all these OW is NOT productive for either of you.

What IS productive is focussing on the behavioural change so that you both stop LB'ing each other and start meeting each other;s EN's.

The WHOLE MB program is about the FUTURE, not the past.

So unless there is still stuff Windstopped is hiding from you, why not put down that shovel and start working on what you will both beccome and what your marriage will be.

That will make both of you far happier.

BK, just so you know, considering the extent of the lies and the lengths of them, and the number of betrayals involved, it'll take me awhile to feel safe that I know everything. *edited to add* It was just a few days ago that I found about a girl he flirted with at his present job. I've asked him about it and I'll just have to take his word for it, won't I. He says she is nothing to worry about.

And like most of the BSs here, if I have a trigger down the road, even years from now, I will want and NEED Windstopped to talk to me about that trigger and comfort me.

If there was any "dwelling" going on, it's because I was lied to for so long.

I am looking forward to putting this mess in the past and I want it to stay there.

Like I've said somewhere earlier, I will not go back into this blind again. I won't feel safe until he proves to me that I am at least reasonably safe.

And I have been communicating with Windstopped this weekend and we're trying to watch our LBs. In fact, since he's shown a great amount of care for me this weekend and has been answering some of my hard questions, I don't feel like LBing.

Thanks for stopping in.

Hey mopers...how's it going? Been a few days since you posted and I know you had a pretty rough MC session the other day. Windstopped is getting some great help on his thread, too.

So, what's the good word, sista?

Hi Lala,

I started to drop you a quick line the first night you were asking about me and then Windstopped got on IM with me and it went downhill after that.

I am a little frustrated to say the least about my sitch.

I've been in my frozen mode again of not knowing where to start and that's why I haven't updated.

I have an IC appt Thursday and will hopefully update after that.

I also have another test tommorow and have needed to concentrate on that but haven't been able to.

Not answering you created huge conflicts in me so I just decided to anyway because I feel so bad for not doing it already. Thank you for caring. It means a lot to me.

I also read that it was W2S's d-day anniversary the other day and I felt pretty confident that you probably handled that well, I hope. I know it couldn't have been easy but I see your love for him just being on these boards and learning where he's coming from. I have all the faith in the world that you guys are going to make it out of this with a great marriage.

Not posting has really gotten on my nerves so I'm going to break down and get a few out of the way before I start studying.

Hugs to ya.

Ah, mopers...don't worry about not responding sooner! I just wanted you to know I'm thinking about you whenever you are ready. Please don't let it stress you...you have enough of that already! I'll be here for ya no matter when you feel ready!

We did handle D-day very well. He got some much needed help from BK...he is such a gem and a wonderful person. He has been such a God-sent to us!! W2S and him really connect in this, and he has been a great support to me also. We have a great support system in ALL of you and are so grateful! W2S feels we re-claimed that day together (as it was also the 13 year anniversary of the first night we spent together...nice night for me to pick as D-day, huh! UGH!!!)

My prayers are with you, mopey. You just do what you need to do with school and we'll be here for ya when you are ready!

((((((((MOPERS))))))))

Lala, you're the best.

I KNEW you'd handle that anniversary well!

Thanks for understanding.

Mopey,

I just wanted to let you know that I exposed the A to OMW. I had given you my word that I would do it and now it is done. What good is a man if he cannot be true to his word. Sorry it took so long. You won't believe what happened. I owed you so much for what you did that first night LaLa came here I felt the least I could do is keep the promise I made to you. Hope you're doing OK. Thanks Mopey!

Want2Stay

p.s. LaLa started a thread with what happened. You won't believe it!

W2S, THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart.

You're a good man.

{{{{W2S & LaLa}}}}}

Hello everyone,

I’m in a really bad place right now and I could sure use some advice.

As some of you know my H and I have been separated for about 6 weeks now. The reason for the separation was because of anger. After 4 d-days and tons of lies for over a year, and my H’s lack of efforts with recovery, it was more than I could take.

I think in most cases when a BS first hears of what their spouse did to decimate the marriage, it can make someone pretty angry. I needed to release that anger by telling my H what his actions did to me. It would have been great if he had just listened to my pain and comforted me afterwards but all he ever did was get defensive. This scenario played out with every d-day and every lie. So, I was never able to release my anger. I was met with defensiveness and that made it worse.

So, between me being angry at what he did, and being angry over him dragging his feet in recovery, it was too much for me and apparently him so it was suggested we separate. We did.

The first two weeks were especially difficult for me because now I had to heal alone, go through the triggers alone. I was filled with anger over that and couldn’t see my H much because I didn’t trust how angry I was with him and didn’t want to “lovebust” to have it thrown back in my face. No anger, however expressed, was taken well by my H. My counselor said he throws my anger back in my face because he doesn’t want to hear it.

So, a few more weeks go by and I can feel my rage dissapate somewhat because I no longer felt so vulnerable to my H. I didn’t have to stuff anger or hurt to just be around him. However, I still felt anger that he wasn’t here to help me heal. It feels like he’s running from the mess he created.

I promise you people, had he let me vent right when I found out without defensiveness and just loved me through the hurt, I would have gotten past the anger awhile ago. And it’s hard when you have 4 different d-days with tons of lies in between. My last major d-day was less than 6 months ago and the last lies were about 3 or 4 months ago. I have yet to vent without defensiveness.

I have been talking to my counselor a lot about the anger. She agrees that it is justified anger. And I have more anger than just from the affairs. I was tricked into marrying this man who was already cheating on me. He neglected me emotionally and physically throughout our whole marriage and it wasn’t until I learned of his women, porn, and excessive flirting that I understood why he was never there for me. I was miserable our whole marriage and he blamed it on me our whole marriage. So, I had anger from that too.

Last week my counselor told me to set a timer and vent my anger out. My H is to sit and listen without saying a word. Surprising my H agreed to this. Also, I had revised my list of what I needed to recover for myself and what I needed my H to do to help me recover. My H said last week that he was taking the list seriously and asked me some questions about it. He even did a few things on the list.

So, with a way to vent my anger in place and my H taking my list seriously, I began to feel there may be hope for us. I started to feel better. I was able to have a few dates with my H and they went well. He even gave me two opportunites to vent if I needed it, and I found myself full of hurt and not rage and didn’t take him up on it. I was full of hurt but nothing came out at that point. I think I didn’t release the hurt because I knew he would be leaving again soon and I didn’t want to deal with the hurt by myself after he left. I have enough hurt to deal with. I just didn’t want to go there until I thought I had more time.

Here is my BIG pain point right now……

The other day, my H told me that if he didn’t see progress in our relationship by September, that he was going to “re-evaluate” our relationship. He told me that if we (meaning him) was still unhappy by then, that he would most likely end the marriage. Well, that hurt me. Hurt me to the core. He stalled our recovery with lies and more d-days, drug his feet in recovery to the point of angering me so bad that he had to leave. And now he has put a DATE on our recovery. He says he realizes that our marriage won’t be completely healed by then but that he expects progress.

I don’t know about the rest of you but this hurts me to the core and angers me more. I understand him wanting to see progress, but then again, I DID TOO for the past 1 ½ years. Heck, he didn’t even start counseling until 8 months after the first d-day. He says that I am a perpetually angry person and it doesn’t matter that he was the cause of a lot of that anger. I do agree it was my fault for staying in the relationship in the first place. So I take credit for that.

If you guys were in my shoes, how would this make you feel? I am so hurt by it that I don’t know if I even want to be with him anymore. My counselor doesn’t think I’m over reacting. It feels like an insult to me.

I really, really need help with this one. I don’t respect or like my H very much right now. He has hurt me over and over again and I think he runs from the fallout of what he did. My recovery stage wasn’t normal. I left out a lot of hurtful things he has said as well and that just adds to pile of things I have to deal with.

He also keeps asking me what am I doing to help the situation. I am seeing a counselor weekly and have been since shortly after the initial d-day, which the exception of 4 months where I didn’t from burnout. I am also in school and passing my classes, with B’s so far. I’ve stuffed hurt to anger to meet his needs as best as I could for our situation. I have seen a Dr. to help with the anxiety I feel who has a lot he wants to work with me on. I have confided in my sister and some friends, and MB to help me get through this. I have given him time to see if things could improve. I’ve been reading some books on my own to help in understanding. I have pretty much controlled LBs, especially since he’s been gone. I am actively planning my only daughter’s wedding. I take care of myself by eating decent food. I started back to the gym again. I’m not overweight, I just need to tone up, for him because “attractive spouse” is one of his top ENs.

All I know is that this “September date” thing has really thrown me for a loop. It feels like a slap in the face.
Am I crazy for being insulted by a progress date from him, considering why things got so bad in the first place? Should I even give him the time of day?

No, I don't think you're crazy, I would be insulted as well.

What, exactly, does he mean by "progress"? We all view progress differently. This seems like a really vague term to me.

You know, Mopey, you have choices too...this is not all about him. Have you read "Boundaries in Marriage"? If not, RUN, don't walk, to get it now. You really need it.

Also, can you guys counsel with SH? Especially in your sitch, I think SH is necessary.

(((Mopey)))...hang in there, realize that YOU have choices too. And call SH.

Mopey, do you know about gaslighting and passive/aggressive behaviour?

If you haven't already, please read the links in my sig line

And these two:

http://members.aol.com/Relationshop/Definitions/gaslighting.html

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/109220/what_is_gaslighting_.html

definition of gaslighting / definition of gaslight
by J. E. Brown
gaslighting
A common form of brainwashing in which an abuser tries to falsely convince the victim that the victim is defective, for any purpose whatsoever, such as making the victim more pliable and easily controlled, or making the victim more emotional and therefore more needy and dependent. {You're reading "Definition of Gaslighting" by J. E. Brown.}

Often done by friends and family members, who claim (and may even believe) that they are trying to be helpful. The gaslighting abuser sees himself or herself as a nur-turing parental figure in relation to the victim, and uses gaslighting as a means for keeping the victim in that relationship, perhaps as punishment for the victim's at-tempt to break out of the dependent role.

Example 1: If an abusive person says hurtful things and makes you cry, and then, in-stead of apologizing and taking responsibility, starts recommending treatments for what he or she calls "your depression" or "your mood swings," you are in the pres-ence of a gaslighter.
Quick Survey: Suppose your partner says "I Need More Space." What does it mean?
Example 2: If someone insults you or criticizes you, and then pretends it was a joke and asks "Don't you have a sense of humor?", that's gaslighting.

Perception blaming is a common form of gaslighting, and a common technique for evading the consequences of one's actions. Example: "I'm sorry you perceived my words that way; it wasn't my intention." Translation: "You are perceptually defec-tive. Everyone else in the world can read my mind; if you can't, there must be some-thing wrong with you. Or so I'd like you to believe." Unspoken Message: "My inten-tion should change your actions (even though it didn't change mine)." This presup-poses the reasoning "Most people are judged for their actions; but *I* want to be judged for my unseen intentions." For more about this double standard, see Defini-tion of Conceit. {Read this comp1ete article at http://users.aol.com/Relationshop/Definitions/gaslighting.html .}

Etymology: Term is named after the film Gaslight (1944), in which the villain used the technique.

I was tricked into marrying this man who was already cheating on me. He neglected me emotionally and physically throughout our whole marriage and it wasn’t until I learned of his women, porn, and excessive flirting that I understood why he was never there for me. I was miserable our whole marriage and he blamed it on me our whole marriage.

So, why do you want to remain married to him?

Your anger has turned into violence at times...hasn't it?

Your post is full of blame...you blame him for your anger.

He hasn't been husband material from the start.

What makes you think that you can MAKE him husband material?

committed

Mopey-

We are sort of going through something like this, on a smaller scale. Insulted? Id be alot more than insulted! I would feel like my H was telling me he wasnt committed enough, invested enough or loved me enough to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to help me heal. Idf feel like he made this mess, and now when the hard work of him looking inward and facing what he is done has come up, he wants to turn and run. Id feel like he never heard MY pain, but always turned it into HIM. It sounds very much like classic PA behavior to me.

I dunno, Mopey. What about this is working for you? Are you ok, girl?

Hi Mopey...

You know this is what he is doing (gaslighting)- what he has always done, and what he continues to do. Gaslighting is his weapon. As is sarcasm and selfish, childish behavior.

When I read the exchange between you and Windstopped on (I think it was) MEDC's thread a week or so ago, I was very, very angry. I almost bumped your thread that night, but I was knee deep in my own mud and just didn't even know what to say to you without being destructive to your M.

The email listing every street and turn and directions to his (I think) sister's house, etc, and his ensuing antics on that thread were so sickening to me. This is not extraordinary care and love. This is someone who is still one step from hurling himself on the ground and thrashing about like a 5-year-old for "what you are putting him through!" Barf...I just don't even know how you get through to someone who has lived this way for 40 years of his life and still refuses to take resposibility for his actions. And lip service doesn't count!

I think it is going to come down to you having to decide which way you should go. The reason you fought so hard against really making the huge effort to "get over" this, is because of this very manipulative crap he is pulling now. You get to do all the hard work, and he gets to mule and whine and throw you a bone every now and again (nice dates) to keep you hanging on, and then turns around and sets time lines on your recovery.

So, knowing that you can only change yourself...keep working on letting go of the anger. That way, even if things don't work out, your progress isn't "in vain." You certainly don't want to carry this kind of baggage into a new relationship. So, look at it that way, rather than "doing the work to save your M." Start to separate yourself from his antics and insulate yourself in a good, healthy way. Work on your boundaries and take care of YOU! It will be worth it in the long run, whether you stay together or not.


((((((((MOPEY)))))))))

Oh thank you MF. I DO feel insulted and hurt to the core over this.



I did tell him last night one of the reasons it upset me so bad is because the way recovery has gone so far, with the exception of the last few weeks. I thought we were barely getting off the ground last week, and now this feels like a HUGE set back for me. So since we've made little progress so far, it did scare me what he considers "progress" and how much. At first he was a real jerk about it. He said I should work out what the progress meant on my own, by doing my own personal work. I lost what he said after that because my mind was trying to comprehend what he just said.

Then later he said that he would think about it and try to come up with some measurable ways to see progress. Which is all fine and dandy but to put a "date" on it and say that if he's not happy by then, he'll bail, or not? And he said if "he was still miserable" by Sept. that he would bail". He said he's "tired of living this way". OMG, I could scream. After what he's put me through he's tired? I feel like I have been making progress so it makes me feel like there's nothing more I can do. And with this date thing now, I'm so upset I don't even WANT to see him, and that's not gonna help our progress.



Yes, I have the book. Haven't gotten far in it though. I know I have choices and they hurt to make them but I'm getting stronger. I wonder what kind of boundaries I should take in this case? It certainly doesn't meet my recovery requirements which is "however long it takes".



I have often thought that I wouldn't mind a one on one conversation with Steve Harley, Jr. I'll give it some thought and see if H is agreeable.

Thanks again MF. I really needed someone to tell me I wasn't crazy for thinking this way. I know I shouldn't doubt myself but after 15 years with a person who has always been good at making me doubt myself, I still have a long ways to go.

Yes Mulan. I know too well what gaslighting is. Am I so stupid that I'm not seeing it now?

My H thinks the Sept date thing is a "good thing" for both of us. He knows I don't agree and tells me I can make a choice to leave him if I don't like it. I know I have that choice and I might make it. But then he comes back and says that "I'm not willing to give it a few more months".

So I do feel like he's manipulating me into "getting over it" in some kind of "measureable" way for him.

God, I'm so confused. He thinks it's a "good thing". Like it'll spur us on to get better. All I know is that it hurts me. Like what he already knows and feels about me isn't good enough even though he "tells" me I am.

You have begun to stop accepting the unacceptable, the unacceptable being the same old patterns of your relationship/marriage. THAT is a boundary you've set in place. If WindStopped isn't willing or able to put in his 100% to the restoration of your marriage (or not even the restoration of but the building of a newer and better marriage) then that's on him.

For him to put a time limit on you is showing that he's not in this for keeps (better or worse and all that). IF he had been CONSISTENTLY doing EVERYTHING possible up to this point then it would be understandable. But he hasn't.

You are at a crossroads right now. Do you continue on beating your head against a brick wall trying to MAKE him feel your pain and participate in your recovery or do you say no more? Cause you can't MAKE him do anything, yanno?

I think speaking with the Harleys is an excellent idea. At least give your marriage one more shot at real recovery. The first item on the agenda should be his heartless deadline for recovery. JMHO

(((Mopey)))

Committed.....



Hope of what I *think* it could be like with a MB marriage and recovery. He's always done just enough to keep me hoping.



Yes, I'm ashamed to say. I tried to beat the crap out of him after d-day #4 when he got defensive when listening to my pain. I yelled and was angry, and he yelled and got angry back. I pushed a chair his way, he pushed it back harder. After I started to hit him, my 18 year old son heard us from inside the house and came out. My H let him pull me off of him and my son pinned me to the ground. It was a horrible, horrible scene. I am so ashamed of that.



I did. I do see where I need to take credit for not getting out of the situation that creates this anger in me. He made me feel like it was my problem for being angry, that I shouldn't react the way I do. I think my anger was justified but you're right, I have been keeping myself in it hoping things would get better. It's my fault I have stayed in a situation that constantly brings about hurt and anger. I have been working on that more and more in the last month, trying to get past my fears.



He wasn't. But I do think he's made a lot of progress as far as boundaries go. It's just caring for my feelings during this recovery that has been so difficult for me. I do of course not trust him yet, but I do think he has possibly grown in this area quite a bit. Only time will tell.



I can't. I know that. I can only accept or not accept who he is and what he does. However, I thought it was ok to share my feelings with him about how to be a good husband for me.

Thanks Committed. Those were hard questions.

JK.....



This is EXACTLY how I feel and more. I am more than just insulted.



The only "inward" work he is doing is on himself. He's not trying to look into how all of this affects me. I feel he thinks all of that is completely my own personal work to deal with. He told me "he didn't care" he was not going to drop the date. He told me "he would rather hurt me with the truth than to make me feel better with lies". Well, I would have liked him to have done that before he married me as well, and I still do. But what that says to me is that he doesn't love me enough, or whatever enough, that's he's miserable with me, and doesn't want to commit to me without seeing progress, by HIS standards, by a certain date.



Definitely not. He has pushed my buttons again. My only choice is to take it or get out. And you know I don't want to take it......

Thanks Jk. Really, I needed you guys soooo bad today.