LaLa.....

I agree with every single word.




This is where my thinking is right now. I'm seriously thinking about going into plan B. What do you all think about that?

I wanted to go straight to plan FU, but thought B might be better.

Then I started thinking maybe I was "wrong" to feel the date thing was a bad idea.

Then I slept on it and woke up insulted again.

Then I came here. Him setting a date doesn't feel right to me at all.

If he doesn't care about me at this point, he probably never will.

I say, call one of the Harleys (whether he wants you to or NOT!) and see what they say. Then go to Plan B if you want to, but realize it may be the beginning of the end of your M. I'm not saying that is bad or good, just saying...be aware!

I don't know your whole situation, so I could be completely off base and if so just ignore what I say.

Maybe your H feels like you will never be happy with him, so why should he keep fighting a loosing battle.

Have you made any progress in your recovery? If not, do you want to keep punishing him by not making progress.

Recovery is hard for the wayward spouse also. That idea used to make no sense to me. But then I realized that just like it took both of us to get our marriage to this point, it would take both of us to heal it.

You should feel insulted! He11, who in their right mind wouldn't?

Mopey,
Your husband is still a renter and not a buyer!
Renters complain if the house they are renting isn't fixed by the owner within a certain time frame that they will move out and find another place.
It's a classic renter's statement! Sorry!
YOU cannot make him a buyer, only he can choose to do that, and his actions over the longrun of your M show this continued pattern of no longterm solutions on his part. I suspect that he's been a renter your entire M.

On a different note - congratulations on maintaining a B average. THATS IMPRESSIVE!

Hi Princess Meggy,

Thank you too for sharing your thoughts....



I agree totally, with everything.



I agree. Since I'm not working, I feel the need to get Windstopped's approval since it's so expensive. I do want to call them though.

VICTORIA - If you don't now the sitch well, keep reading until you do *edit*

mopey,

I have no idea if you know my situation, but I've been living with a WH that is very much like yours. We are separating this week. I don't know, from your sig line, but do you have children?

Whether or not you have children, IMO, it's time to go dark. This type of TIMELINE bullpoo is NOT the mark of a spouse who truly wants recovery. Take it from me, unless you are willing to live in a marriage that is not balanced, or even fulfilling for both of you, Plan B could be best for you. THis may spell the end of the M, it may not. If it does, then either you or your spouse is not fully committed.

Victoria mentioned this...




I haven't read the entire thread, so I don't know if you ARE punishing your WH. I would guess that you aren't KNOWINGLY doing this. If you are, it's a good point to think on, and work out. You DO have choices. You can read and counsel, and come here and practice your very best MB principles and learn to live with your WH, as he is today, (as this is WHO he is now), without expectation from him, or you can go dark, work on yourself and CHOOSE wisely what to do on YOUR time table.

I tried for 10 months (well, 2 years and 10 months), and it takes both spouses, ALL IN, to really make it work, IMO.

LaLa,



I just might do that.



I am very aware of this. That is what plan B is all about. It's about moving on with your life, but giving the spouse a way back if they choose. I thought that would be better than going straight to plan D.

This is not manipulation on my part. He or others may take it that way. LaLa, you know a lot of my story, the hurt has just gone on for so long. It gets better, and then it get bad, and back and forth and back and forth. This is not healthy for me. I think I need to step back and take care of me before this thing angers me into a grave.

Windstopped does do some things to help and I want to give him some credit. But, there's things he didn't/ doesn't do, and then he pulls crap like the e-mail you were referring to and the date thing and I think "WTF"? How can he be so great one minute and a jerk the next? Personally, I think it's because he is angry that I'm angry. And then he does PA stuff. Period. And I wouldn't still be angry if he didn't keep pulling this crap just like you said. I have to move my buttons but I don't know how to not let him get to me. It does hurt me so bad. So the only way I know to do that is to live without him until I get my bearrings again and am stronger in who I am and what is acceptable to me and enforcing those boundaries.

I think the biggest problem is that he sees himself as a good guy, and that he was always a good guy, that made poor choices or "mistakes". And that's a problem for me because I don't see him as a "good guy" right now. He was pretty much a player from the time I met him, and the way he lied and neglected me so bad, I don't see him as a good guy back then and he claims he was. So it makes me think he doesn't get it. I think he was a lying, cheating ******. If I could have gotten that out just once, without defensiveness and complete remorse with amends on his part, I'd be more capable of letting the anger go and forgive him. Is that so wrong? And the reason I felt I had to say those kinds of things to him is because he was so unfeeling about my pain and the damage of what he did caused me. He didn't think I should be so angry and hurt. He had tons of fog layers that have taken forever to peel SOME of them away.

I agree that he is working to BECOME a better man, but I don't see him that way just yet. It's only been six months for me to process just how much he's done to hurt me over the years. I use to think I was a completely jealous basket case. Now I see where his women, flirting and porn fit in while he neglected and lied to me. It takes a while to process this stuff. And he's not exactly making recovery easy to boot with some of this stuff. Had he'd been non-defensive, remorseful and making amends in the WAY THAT I NEEDED IT with the clear cut needs I gave him, I would be much better off.

TST,

He admits to being a renter. He says he feels he has every right to feel the same way I do about being commited to the marriage. I feel that he has to prove to me over time that I can trust him before I'm willing to commit for the rest of my life again, because he was a serial cheater and I'm not long into recovery. I had committed to the recovery though, but a few weeks ago when he told me that he didn't really know if he wanted our marriage or not, I just didn't feel like investing anymore. If recovery went well, and I could learn to trust him again, I would make a new promise to him and be committed for life, unless he's unfaithful again. He feels like I should prove to him also that I'm capable of not being perpetually angry and that I can forgive and forget and let the past go. He thinks I have something to prove to him too before he commits for life to me as well.

He wants to move on and be happy and so do I, but I need to recover at the same time. I just never got to recover much because of the way it went down with the lies, lying about his feelings or with holding them, etc., and his continued defensiveness at anything at all I said. I couldn't even ask him questions about the affair after the polygraph because it was all so painful and when I finally did, I was rewarded with more lies. So, I have a hard time discussing any of it. I don't know if I'll get lies or defensiveness, so I don't bring it up much. But it's this date and anger thing that is killing me.


It's kinda hard to process 15 years of betrayals in 6 months. Especially when I can hardly believe a word that comes out of his mouth because of all the lies. And just because I haven't caught him in a lie in 4 months, doesn't mean anything. His actions show me what I need to know. He'll tell me one minute that he values our marriage, and the next, he gives a date to see progress by.

And he also has admitted he was a renter our whole marriage. He use to tell me he was a buyer for awhile during recovery, but now he says he's a renter.

It all boils down to the anger. He's done things to anger me. He says I'm a perpetually angry person who can't forgive and forget.

I know I can't change him. I'm trying to figure out what I can change to stop the hurt. I'm trying to figure out if the problem is mine and what to do with it, or his and what to do with it.

Thanks for the compliment on the grades, but it's not that impressive really. I'm only in school part time right now and I'm not working. I really should be making A's right now. But thanks anyway.

Hi Victoria and SL,

I'm sorry but I'll have to come back later. I need to get some stuff done before I'm accused of spending "so much time on MB". Plus I really do have some things to do and I don't think I can answer you guys quickly. Your responses were very important to me. Thank you.

TST....I didn't say that right. I know I can't change him. I'm trying to see what I can change in me to stop some of this hurt.

Victoria


Yep. You are right. What you dont seem to understand is that Mopey has put in HUGE effort into recovering her M, while her H puts in effort in fits and stops WHEN it suits him, Does just enough to keep her hanging on and throws her a few crumbs every once in a while so she stays in there, hoping. How in the WORLD is that both spouses putting forth effort?

Mopey, I see more of a freeloader in your H. I completely understand what you are struggling with.

If you want to chat, email me and I'll call ya.

JK

Mopey,

Given all the stress and chaos going on in your life... B avearages ARE IMPRESSIVE.

He's a renter by admission, and a wayward by admission and you are well within your rights to demand a much higher ADMISSION price for him to enter back into your life. For him to set a time frame for anything at this point is a clue into his thinking and tells me he is choosing to stay in the wayward mindset and in the renters mindset also.....
Not a safe place for you to stay! IMO

You have been betrayed and lied to over and over again, and just as your counselor said you have a right to be angry. WS has shut you down over and over again not allowing you to work thru the anger portion of your hurt and until you do you will relive the hurt over and over again. This date setting is another way to shut you down AGAIN!
Great blameshifting still,
Great renters philosophy still,
Great GL still,
Great at everything except going to any length to accept personal responsibility for all the pain he has caused to you!
You are not punishing him, quite to the contrary, he is still punishing(abusing) you. Don't accept this! and don't accept anyone accusing you of this.

Hi Mopey,



I don't buy the notion that you are punishing your H by not making progress. And I hope that you don't buy it either.

The lack of progress is due directly to the absence of conditions necessary in order for you to feel safe.



Taking care of yourself is an excellent idea.



I'd like to caution you about blaming statements.

1.) It is a mindset that helps keep someone stuck by believing that the solution is something that lies outside themselves.

2.) It likely encourages him to feel even more victimized because to accept responsibility for his actions means to accept that he is a bad person. The more he hears it, the more likely he is to continue gaslighting you and telling you that something must just be wrong with you.

You don't need his validation. You don't need for him to tell you that it is okay for you to set limits on destructive behavior. You don't even need for him to understand why. And the more you try to explain, the more likely he is to argue with you and rebel against the idea that he is responsible for his actions.



I know it does.

The way to not let him get to you is to stop seeking his agreement and deciding for yourself if what he says about you is true and keeping that information to yourself.

When he says something that indicates to you that he is not taking responsibility, make a mental note of it and do not correct, argue or try to "teach" him a healthier way of thinking.

If he does something to punish you, refrain from telling him how much it hurt you and trying to get him to empathize. You can simply set a boundary to protect yourself. He's a grown man. Let him figure it out. Trying to figure it out for him enables him to avoid taking responsibility and seeking solutions.



And maybe that's true. But it's still a disrespectful judgment. And again...that belief (about himself) is what he appears to be fighting against and to accept responsibility for it likely feels like agreeing with you that he is a horrible person.

And honestly, this doesn't have anything to do with what he is or isn't. This is about how you like/don't like being treated. That is the only information that he needs. If you are able to express your preferences to him without blame, it might be easier for him to listen. If you do your part and he gets defensive, set your boundary by telling him that you will only discuss the issue when you feel your perspective is being heard. If he tells you that it is only that you <insert any blame here>, tell him again that you will be willing to discuss the issue when he is willing to stop arguing with your perspective.



It isn't wrong at all.

And you stated a boundary of sorts here. YOU decide what actions would portray remorse and what the price of admission to your heart is.

If he wants to argue with you about how much it costs, you don't have to try to get him to agree the price is fair or reasonable or how he should pay it.

There doesn't even need to be a discussion about it. He has the right to choose whether or not he wants to pay, just as you have the right to decide the cost.



Maybe so, but do you see how that leaves you dependent upon him for your safety and happiness?



Button-pushing.

It is an attempt to get you to lower the price, in hopes that he can play upon your fear that you aren't worth the cost.

You are.



Defensiveness is an indication that he doesn't want to hear. What's the point of telling someone something if they aren't receptive to listening?

But you don't have to stop discussing it out of fear. You can CHOOSE not to discuss it (which is you taking back your power).

If he mentions the date thing, just accept that as his choice and decline.



Good for you, Mopey. Take care.

Mopey - your WH is a classic Passive/Aggressive bully who is absolutely determined to keep you angry. As long as you are angry, HE is the victim, and P/As are 100% invested in making sure THEY remain the victims and not you.

I wish you would read the P/A stuff in my sig lines - I mean, REALLY read it and understand it. There's a lot you could be doing to cut off the P/A behaviour at the knees, but you simply continue to take his bait and remain right where he wants you - furiously angry and allowing HIM to remain the victim.

Which is exactly what he wants.

As we were discussing on the Boundaries thread, good boundraies will remove much of the anger because then he will no longer be able to trample and violate you. This is where your rage is coming from.

But as long as you continue the P/A dance, he will keep winning and winning and winning and actually be quite content while YOU keep losing more and more of your sanity.

And remember - sometimes, Plan B stands for "Plan Boundary".
Mulan

Actually, Mopey, September sounds like a good date to me. At that time you can re-evaluate whether you want to stay married to this guy. In the meantime, keep working on YOU.

Mopey,

IMO I think that you and WS need to discuss your thread as being “your thread” and that you need to be allowed to have this place where you can discuss things without him constantly feeling the need to defend himself. And neither of you need be reading or posting on each others threads. As was pointed out to me recently, your thread is not for his consumption and his thread is not for your consumption! Agree to protect yourselves and your love for each other by intentionally avoiding each others threads, maybe this will help.

I’m praying for both WS and for you that your marriage will survive and thrive. &#61514;

I'm glad the boards are back up, but bummed that I don't have time to post much today. I have a big test tomorrow that I'm studying for.

A few hours before the boards went down that night, my daughter came over and I couldn't get back on the boards til later only to find out they were down. My daughter's timing was perfect though. She ended up staying the next three days with me. Not because of the boards though.....lol....unfortunately, she had some problems too and it was great that we could be there for each other.

Just an update before I can come back and respond to the posts that I received before the boards went down........

My situation is pretty much in the same place it was on 3/14 when I last posted, except for the fact that I am barely talking to Windstopped now.

He hasn't dropped the idea of a "re-evaluation in September to see if there's a point in continuing with our marriage" and I am still upset by the whole thing. I don't feel safe with him at all. He told himself when he married me "that if things didn't work out, he could always get a divorce". He still has that mindset.

I told him I didn't want to talk to him unless it was strictly business so I can take some time to sort this out. Just communicating with him, knowing that he doesn't know if he wants to be married to me right now, is more than I can handle after everything else at this point.

I am stepping back, trying to get my bearrings. Honestly, it's not looking too good for us.

He claims that divorce is not a path he wants to take, but divorce is still looming over my head anyway. He gets irritated that the possible divorce part is a problem for me. He says I am focusing on the wrong thing. How can I NOT focus on the fact that if I don't "progress" in my healing in a way that is suitable to him come Sept, that he may divorce me? I don't think so. I could, but I'm not going to. It doesn't feel safe to me and I can't even try to have a relationship with him right now. It's too painful for me.

I am keeping myself busy with school work and my daughter's wedding. (She's not a planner and I'm having a blast with it. We have the same taste so it's easy). I am still trying to get through about 5 books, one of them being the boundaries book. I'm still in counseling as well. I am just trying to keep it all together.

His "Sept date" has made me feel like a "present failure" of a wife in his eyes. I know I'm not. I've been hit with a TON of crap by him and never had the chance to be seen by him without all his garbage effecting me. Sad part is, he'll probably never see it. His garbage has affected me since I've known him.

It irks the heck out of me that if we divorce, he now knows about boundaries and will PROTECT any future partner, I think, from what he has put me through all of these years. His new relationship won't have all the pain and destruction mine currently does. I told him he'd probably make a good husband one day if he never hurts his next love interest. Then again, maybe he'll grow by that point and will be able to handle the consequences from his actions and they'll live happily ever after.

I HAVE to work on getting him out of my mind and possibly out of my life.

I AM a good person. I have lots of love to offer. I can be a lot of fun, and be responsible. I have lots of potential still. I want to be happy. I can be happy.

It's just going to take me a little while to get there. My path just sadly looks different today.

P.s. JK, thanks so much for the offer to chat. The boards went down before I could get your contact info. It would have been great to have that while the boards were down. I managed just fine like everyone else did. God has carried me through. I am grateful to have the support of this board back though.

I've got a lot on my plate the next few days, but I just might take you up on that offer. I need to constantly check, and re-check myself to make sure I'm not off balance. My therapist is trying to help me trust myself. Living with a gaslighter has made that very difficult.

Talk to you all soon.

Hi Mopey,

There are already lots of great posts on this thread, so I don't have much to add other than that I think that FWS's simply don't grasp how HARD recovery is.

While I would never have imagined how difficult it has been being a BS trying to achieve recovery and how terribly long it has taken, I think it came as even more of a shock to my FWH.

Honestly, who ever said that the affair would define the relationship forever was on the money.

IMHO, putting recovery on the clock so to speak is just going to assure that it will fail. It adds more stress to an already impossibly stressful time.

You can't rush healing from an affair anymore than you can rush healing from a physical injury. All that happens is that you cause further injury.

((((((Mopey)))))))

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