Hi, I originally found MB last winter which was right around D-Day. I found the articles helpful, but not until now have I posted. Here is my story as briefly as I can put it.

WW and I have been married 7 years. We have a DD 4yrs, DS 2 yrs. WW began affair with co-worker almost two years ago. She moved out of our house 03/07, shortly after D-Day. WW stayed with friends and family for a short time before moving in with OM in summer of 07. The children stayed with me and WW would come to the house to spend time with them.

This past October I was woken up at 4:00 am by the police. They had come to check on the well being of my children. WW and OM had a big fight that night and because of his behaviour and some threats he had made the WW was frightened OM would come to my house that night. After the police left I called WW and asked what was going on. She admitted that OM had been getting increasingly angry and out of control the past few months and that it came to a head. WW had to fight her way out the house and call police so she could get her purse and keys and car and things to get away. That night I told WW she should come stay with me and the kids. That it was a safe place and that she needed to get out of that situation.

Since that night WW has been living with me and the kids. She works very close to the OM, so NC hasn’t been possible. For the first month or so she was very scared of the OM and wanted nothing to do with him. But as time went by she forgot how scared she had been and they began talking again. Since Thanksgiving she has bounced back and forth on what to do, either stay and work things out with me, or move out and pursue the abusive OM. Each time she would talk about moving out, she would change her mind to stay, before she got an apartment.

Finally a little over two weeks ago I told her she had to committ to working it out with me or move out immediately. She was gone one night before she came back and said to me “I just can’t survive going back to him”. All of her friends or family were telling her there is NO WAY you can go back to abusive OM. Each time she has come back to my side a bit faster and a bit more committed to working things out. This last time was 15 days ago.

Since that time we have been to a MC twice. The second time the wayward wife broke down completely and admitted that she has self worth /self esteem issues. The counselor suggested that the two of them meet a few times alone.

The first session between the counselor and the WW was today and afterwards WW sent me this email.
_________________________________________________________
I know you are anxious…

((The counselor) basically said I need to get a journal and write in it daily, even if for a short time. She said I need to talk to God a lot. She told me not to focus on our relationship right now. So, I know that is painful for you but are you ok with that? Living in the same house and not working on our relationship?
________________________________________________________

How do I proceed from here?

Hi,

Welcome to MB. I am not one to give advice as I am really a newbie in the scheme of things. But others will be along to help you out.

This is a great place to be in spite of the circumstances and I wish you the best.

Patient:

Welcome to MB (even though you have been around a while). I read your post and think there are some positives in your sitch right now. I wanted to address what I believe to be the most important two things you can do, there is a lot more but that will come later.

First, I think most of the vets will agree with me that you and your wife must find a way for her to get a new job. Even though it appears that the AE is near the end, if not ended, your WW is still an addict looking for a fix. There are very few successful alcoholic recoveries when you keep beer in the fridge. In order to start the recovery process, the affair has to be in the past, and it can never be in the past as long as there is contact.

Secondly, now is the absolutely perfect time for you to develop and implement a fabulous Plan A. Read about the EN questionaire if you haven't already and make a plan on how you can meet all of her needs even if she doesn't allow you to meet some of those. Show her what kind of husband she walked out on and what your relationship can be like. She has already told you in her email what is high on her list...she has low self esteem. Avoid DJ and AO's like the plague even though it will be hard. Don't push the relationship at this point...all good things take time.

Now, it is probably the most unfair thing in the world but you are going to have to shoulder most of the burden in recovery in the first leg. Most of your EN's will not be met and pushing her at this point to will push you farther away, not bring you together. She is a strung out junkie, one who thought the grass was greener with an outside fix only to find out that it was not only a worse situation but she walked out on her kids. She is going to battle these demons for a long time. My FWW still does and she is long past AE and we are well into recovery. If she was looking to increase her self esteem and self worth when the A started, think about how much lower those have gone for her now that she has really hit the bottom.

The most important thing you can do is to support her (under certain conditions). If you want to recover your marriage, it is possible and the end result can be better than you ever imagined. But the road to recovery is mostly uphill will lots of curves and an occassional dead end.

While she is focusing on her, you also need to be focusing on you. Understanding that she owns the choices that she made. You probably contributed to the state of the marriage that allowed the affair to occur, but she made that choice, not you. It is easy for the BS to absolutely have their guts ripped out when everything really settles in and that can cause self esteem issues for you. If you need to, don't be afraid to get AD's. They were a life saver for me and took some of the huge swings out of my emotional rollercoaster.

One caveat is that often the BS, particulary BH's tend to get to a point where a huge amount of resentment sets in about six months after D-Day. Kind of the don't get mad, get even mentality. That is not the road you want to go down, resist it with all your strength. I wish I could tell you how to deal with the resentment. It was hard, over time it got better as I got my wife back instead of the alien that stood in her body for a long time. But I dealt with resentment by finding a new hobby where I could take out part of my frustration. Since my focus was on that hobby instead of being PO'd, I learned to live with things.

Good Luck,

NT

Thanks for the response NT.

A couple things.

What are AO's and what is AE, I looked at the acronym page but couldn't find them.

I forgot to mention in my original post that the OM got fired (kind of, they gave him two weeks), and his last day will be this Friday. So hopefully NC will really begin after that. Therefore there is no reason for WW to get a new job, and the one she has is great.

The thing about all of this is I had moved on over the summer. My faith really grew through all of this and I was in a really good spot. I had accepted the impending D and was looking forward to my future. Then when the affair blew up and I let my WW move back in, all the chaos came back.

I had held out a small piece of my heart all along that we could reconcile, and I still believe we can if we take some of the steps outlined here on MB. I will develop a plan A, but am concerned that if WW thinks I'm working on the relationship at all at this point it will be a LB. I've looked at the EN's and think I know some of her important ones. I guess I kind of feel like my Plan A needs to be kind of on the sly. Does that make sense? Is that normal?

One of the struggles right now is that WW says she is only here because of the guilt and that I have trapped her into staying, because of the guilt and because I told her the abusive OM would never be allowed around the kids. Of course she throws in all the other typical babble about never loving me, that she cares for me but there is no passion, that she married me because of where she was in life and that I was safe, blah blah blah.

Any suggestions on the Plan A, knowing that I can't let her see that I'm trying!

PF, I am sorry you are here, but you came to the right place. i would strongly suggest that you call up the Harleys for counseling if you want to save your marriage. Since this "marriage counselor" can't help your marriage, perhaps the Harleys CAN. Focusing on your W's "self esteem" won't help your marriage and reflects a lack of understanding about the nature of infidelity. Sitting around yapping about self esteem won't save your marriage, only a complete end of contact with the OM will do that. And of course your W has low self esteem. She SHOULD! There is not much to esteem right now. But that can change if she changes.

Marriage counselors have the highest failure rate of any of the counseling disciplines, at 16% success, and the reason is that they don't understand infidelity and haven't the slightest idea how to recover a marriage. The Harleys DO understand how to do it.

Steve Harley won't waste a minute of your time yapping about foolishness, he will assess your situation and give you a PLAN to save your marriage. He is worth every penny.

Could you go to a Marriage Builders weekend? There is one coming up at the end of hte month, I think.

Pf, it sounds like you have already been in Plan A for some time. Plan A is the precursor to plan B. When the affairee refuses to end her affair, it is time to get a separation and go into Plan B. To do otherwise is to ENABLE her, which is not in yours or hers or your kids best interest.

often, affairs can linger on much longer than they normally would because the BS enables the affair. And I will tell you how. The OM probably meets 1-2 TOP needs of your wife. You meet 3-4. But she doesn't really know that unless you are removed from the scene. When you remove yourself, it becomes clear very quickly that the OM can't or won't meet ALL of her needs and the LOVEBUSTING BEGINS. You have seen this happen WITH YOUR OWN EYES. Their affair crumbled when she moved out and the OM tried to meet her needs.

So, how best to protect the affair from ugly REALITY? Move home, let you meet her basic needs and meet up with the OM to get the occasional fix of her top needs.

The affair can go on FOREVER this way becasue it protects the affair from REALITY. And affairs are based on ILLUSIONS so this set up ENABLES the affair.

Plan B is the best path for you, if she won't end contact, in that it allows the illusion to die but protects you and your children from her abuse while waiting for it to die. If you don't remove yourself from her abuse, you are likely to suffer mental and physical ailments along with a growing HATRED. Her affair is the ultimate lovebuster and you will eventually grow to hate her. Once that happens it is almost impossible to turn the clock back. [those are Dr Harleys words, not mine]

Every one wins from a well timed PLAN B. It wakes up your wife, causes conflict in the affair and protects your mental health.

Will she commit to ending contact FOR LIFE?

PF, the purpose of Plan A is to negotiate AN END TO THE AFFAIR. That is all you should be working on right now. Negotiating ways to end her affair. Will she agree to end all contact with him FOR LIFE? Will she send him a no contact letter telling him to never ever contact her again? i would let her know that if she does certain things, you would be willing to work on recovering the marriage. But unless that happens, there is no hope.

But most of all, I would not allow her to put you off while she goes to a counselor every week and pontificates about her childhood and her poor self esteem. The Titantic is sinking and will not wait. For the sake of your marriage, your childrens family and your sanity, don't allow her or her bad counselor to put you off.

Thanks MelodyLane,

I stopped enabling the affair last March when I told her she had to move out. Then again a little over two weeks ago when I forced her to make a decision. I do believe that the affair is over, but NC could not begin until this Friday, the OM's last day at the workplace.

There has never been any abuse between the two of us, other than maybe some slight emotional abuse, like having an affair! The physical abuse came from the OM.

I have tremendous confidence in our MC, I have been seeing her for about a year. I started going right around D-Day and hoped that the WW wife would join me someday. The counselor is a big fan of MB and I do believe she knows what she is doing. Solving my WW's self esteem may not save the marriage, but if she doesn't solve it there really is no chance to save the marriage.

WW looks for her happiness in people and things. In our 6 plus years of marriage we have had three different houses. Each one was bigger and nicer, and in retrospect a way for WW wife to find happiiness. Her problem is she is always looking for something new and better to make her happy. Until she learns that self worth comes from her relationship with God and not material things or relationships she will continue in a patern of always running to something new. Earthly things change and if that is where happiness and self worth come from, then happiness and self worth will be fleeting, being dictated by circumstances that are constantly changing.

I appreciate very much your advice, just not sure it aplies to the situation. Like I said earlier I had moved on and let her go to suffer the consequences of her decisions. I have taken care of the kids and myself and protect them from the chaos WW brings. When I say Chaos I am speaking of her not making up her mind, of her being depressed and an emotional wreck, that type of thing.

Now there is a small chance for reconcilation and I want to do everything I can to make that happen. I believe WW is beginning WD and starting to feel all the guilt and other emotions that will come with what she has done. I just need to figure a way to institute a Plan A without it looking like am doing so as this could be a LB right now.

Does any of this make sense? Am I way off base?

I must have been posting while you were. WW has agreed to NC, all I can do is wait to see if she sticks to it.

I didn't realize Plan A was just for ending the affair. I believe the affair has ended. now I need a plan to implement until WD is over and (hopefully) the next stage kicks in.

Coping with Infidelity: Part 4
Overcoming Resentment


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html

One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.

Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster.

I personally believe that therapy should focus most attention, not on the past, but on ways to make the future sensational. And when a spouse comes to me with unresolved feelings of resentment about something their spouse did in the past, I tend to put it on hold and focus on issues that prevent mistakes of the past from recurring. I ask them to trust my judgment, and see what happens to the resentment when the marriage has a chance to become fulfilling. In almost every case, resentment fades, as I predicted. While the painful memories are not entirely forgotten, the most recent marital experiences which are fulfilling and enjoyable, dominate a person's thinking, and resentment becomes weak and infrequent.

Recovery may not be complete

Resentment usually appears when an experience of the present reminds us of a painful experience of the past. For example, if a wife had been abandoned by her husband after a fight on a vacation, left to find her way home alone from Jamaica, the resentment of that experience would pop up whenever her husband walks out the door during an argument. Very often, continuing resentment means that whatever it was that caused the painful experience is still lurking in the background. And it jumps out every once in a while when evidence of it's existence surfaces.

The procedure for recovery that I suggest usually eliminates the root causes of infidelity, and that makes it unlikely that present experiences will remind a spouse of experiences associated with an affair. If the only time you feel resentment about a spouse's past affair is when your needs have not been met, when your spouse is engaged in a Love Buster, or when the Policy of Joint Agreement or Policy of Radical Honesty has not been followed, then it's the completion of recovery that's your problem, not resentment.

con'd...

An affair is WORSE than physical abuse, PF. It is as bad as RAPE or the death of a child. People have nervous breakdowns over them. It IS ABUSE.


I don't believe this for a minute, PF. The recovery of your marriage is contingent upon a) ending contact with her affair partner, b) implementing Marriage Builders principles. Her self esteem has nothing to do with that. Her self esteem is low BECAUSE she has been acting in ways that are not esteemable.

While she spends hours wasting time talking about her self esteem, your marriage is IGNORED. The Titanic is sinking and she is talking to the counselor about the peeling paint in the girls bathroom. That is not the answer to your marital problems, I am sad to say, it is just a DIVERSION.

What needs to happen NOW is an effective plan of RECOVERY, PF. I would print this out and hand it to the "MC" and let her know this is what Dr Harley prescribes. He has saved many marriages over his long career and it was not done by yapping about self esteem, but by making REAL AND EFFECTIVE CHANGES in one's marriage.

Here is what it will take: How to Survive Infidelity

Here is a sample no contact letter from Surviving an Affair:

PF, I implore you to take the time and research what Marriage Builders has to offer before you waste any more of your time and money. Dr. Harley is a credentialed psychologist who has been doing this for 35 years. He is very successful, whereas your average MC has very little success, experience or expertise. It concerns me that this MC is ignoring your marriage at such a critical time. The Titantic is sinking and your MC is talking about the peeling paint in the girls bathroom. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

MelodyLane, thank you very much for taking the time and energy to explain your thoughts on this. It certainly gives me something to think about. I especially like the peeling paint comment!

The problem I'm having is I trust the MC. She has never tried to keep me in therapy for the long term. I was seeing her for almost a year before the WW got involved. The MC continually pushed our sessions back further and further as she thought I was doing well, and always asked me if I thought coming helped and if I wanted to come again. I guess I'm just addressing a realistic fear that I have heard others express about some Counselors trying to keep their patients long term. I do not believe this is the case with this counselor.

In the last meeting with the counselor that my WW and I both attended the counselor asked if I would be okay with the WW coming a couple times on her own to short out her self worth. I took that as 2-3 times meaning we would just be put on hold for 2 or 3 weeks. As NC is to start this Friday, the OM's last day of work. I thought that the WW would be going through WD for that time anyway and it was no harm in putting us on hold for that period.

I value your opinion on this so please don't think I don't. I am inclined to let the NC begin and just bide my time for a bit while the WW goes through WD. In the meantime I can be showing my support and avoiding any LB's. If I see that NC is not being maintained then I'm ready to kick the WW out anyway. So in that case it really won't matter.

My biggest concern right now is that the NC happen and if it does then in 3-4 weeks I'll see where things are going with the MC and if her and the WW are ready to work on the marriage.

Is this unrealistic or unreasonable. Again I will certainly think about what you have said already and concider talking to the MC about it.

PF, I would ask her for her comprehensive PLAN OF RECOVERY for your marriage. Ask her for her background in recovering marriages from infidelity. Does she have experience? What is her plan for your marriage?

Please print up Dr Harley's program of recovery and take it to your MC and show her his plan. That is what it will take to recover your marriage. If she doesn't have a plan, or it doesn't line up with his, you are probably not in capable hands.

Is it okay to just come on here and vent?

WW called OM last night, and it has me PO'd. His last day at work is this Friday and she has agreed to NC after this Friday. I asked why she called him last night and she said "because he's a mess". So I responded "why is that your concern"?

I have emailed the MC to talk to her about what is going on and see what her plan is for reconciliation, but haven't heard back yet.

I feel like the only thing WW took from yesterday's session was "don't work on your relationship with your husband right now". Which WW then translates into, don't worry about what BS thinks or feels. Which in WW's mind makes it okay for her to call the OM last night, after all we're not working on our relationship right now. I know that's not what the MC had in mind, but I think that's how WW's mind works.

Very frustrated today. Really just want this Friday to come and NC to begin and see what happens. I'm starting to have thoughts of 'do I really want to continue working on this'?. Is that normal in my position. I really do still love my wife, but am beginning to question whether she will ever be able to give us another chance.

PF, do you have Surviving an Affair by Dr. Harley? That book would help you understand the dynamics of adultery. Your wife is very much like SUE in the case study in the book. [you can get it at most bookstores or you can buy it cheap on this website]

Did you watch the video I linked above? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6806_inf.html

And yes it is normal to question whether or not you want to continue with this. The concern I see is that there is no PLAN, and this is not going to get fixed without a plan.

I would be very interested to see what your MC's PLAN of recovery looks like.

PF, I am not trying to rain on your parade, but I want to caution you about believing this. There is nothing stopping her from contacting him outside of work. Since she has agreed to NC will she, therefore, demonstrate that commitment by sending a no contact letter? Without any plan of recovery in place, it might be very hard for her to end contact.

I will get the book today. And watch the video tonight. I have read all the stuff on the website and it has really helped me understand things, but maybe I do need to go a bit further and read the book.

I'm very anxious now to talk to the MC and see what her PLAN is.

Right now I'm just ready to throw in the towel, but don't want to before NC can really begin. At least if I can be patient enough to see if she really goes through with NC then I'll feel better about things one way or another.

Of course another thing that keeps creeping in my head is what if WW and OM are just creating some elaborate plan. Something like they have NC for 6 months and pretend to work on their marriages for the sake of show, and then get back in touch. At that point they will be able to say "see we tried to work things out with our spouses and it didn't work, we can move on with no guilt".

PF, don't give up before you even get started! There are still many opportunities.

Who is this OM? Is he married and are you in contact with his wife?

Sorry Patient- AO's are angry outbursts, AE is affair ended


Doesn't matter how you get the beer out of the fridge, just so it is out of reach of the alcoholic. Given this, I agree, no reason to find a new job as long as OM is gone.


A couple of things here. First, the choice on whether to kick to the curb or to try to reconcile lies with only you. You had no say in her choice to have an affair. If you wish not to try and reconcile and move forward with your life, that is your choice. In the Bible the only allowable reason for divorce is adultery, that pretty much sums up the gravity of her choices. But it never says that you must divorce, it just says that you can divorce.

I believe Plan A is as much about healing and helping you as it is about helping your spouse. Plan A is indeed primarily about making the affair end but I believe it goes much deeper than that. Plan A is often successful at ending an affair because the BS makes a conscious effort to indentify and meet all of their spouses needs. If they can, the fix they need can come from their marriage instead of choosing to look outside for those needs to be met. However, implementing a successful plan A is really about become a better relationship person. It is not really natural for many of us at first. We have to focus on how to communicate, how to be affectionate, how to avoid disrespectful judgements, etc. The good thing is that for me it took so much focus to be that person, much of my focus was shifted away from the past (the affair) and towards the future, whether that was with or without my FWW. Does it need to be on the sly? I don't think so. A good Plan A is mostly about being a good partner and showing your spouse a glimpse of what your relationship can be if both of you follow the guidelines of MB principles. It is about improving ourselves and the relationship things generally follow on their own. At some point, in fairness to you, you do need your wife to be able to commit to not being a cake eater. I have said often that the BS carries most of the burden early in recovery. At some point, with no willingness from the Wayward to start carrying part of that burden, it is more than any one individual can/should have to do. At the point that you start draining your love bank into permanent overdraft status, Plan B becomes your only option


Fogspeak and babble. I chose to ignore. I wish I had learned to reverse babble. There is a geniune reverse babble expert on this forum that can help you with that.


I disagree that you can't let her see that you are trying. Here is how I would frame this whole deal:

You: Wifey I understand that you are struggling with many issues and you feel like you have to work on those first. I married you for better or worse and intend on fighting through these issues with you so that we can recover our marriage.

Wifey: I told you that I have to work on myself and cannot focus on our relationship. Besides I am only here out of guilt, etc.

You: I am not focusing on rebuilding our relationship. That is going to take some time and committment from both of us. However, in the interest of our kids and making things bearable for both of us it makes sense for us to have some basic rules.

1) You need to commit to no contact with OM. Even though he has left the job, your involvement with him in the future serves no purpose for you or our kids. He has demonstrated that he is potentially dangerous and even if we are unable to recover our marriage in the future, further involvement with him is not in your, mine or our kids best interest.

2) We need to be able to communicate openly and start to rebuild some trust between us. Whether or not you are my wife in the future, you will always be a parent to our kids. Consequently, we need to be able to work together for their sake, whether in one home or seperate households. In this vien, we need to implement a Radical Honesty and a Policy of Joint Agreement between us.

There are ways to structure things that are positive for both personal recovery and to get the process started for marital recovery without focusing on the relationship.

However, I agree with Melody that there are many things that at this point are counterproductive for both. Continuing her affair and/or you enabling that to continue in any fashion drains your lovebank and makes it more difficult for a true recovery to ever start.

NT

The OM was married when the affair started. He has divorced his wife in the last year, he has two young children just as WW and I do.

I have been in contact with his ex-wife. He has tried going back to her while WW was back at my house. Ex-wife considered reconciliation but saw all the same behaviours in him that were there before (controlling, abusive etc...) and doesn't want any part of reconciliation now. So OM is coming back to my WW working on her again, and I think WW is buying into it.

I talked to my brother (who is a pastor, and does a lot of counseling) today and he agrees that the counselor telling my WW not to work on us right now is wrong. As he says it, that just opens the door for WW to continue in her ways right now, which she appears to be doing after last night.

I have been patient a long time, but it's starting to wear thin. If WW doesn't live up to NC after this Friday then time to send her packing (I believe that would be Plan B, right).