I completely agree. I remember SNL before he was (thankfully) banned from this site. His wife would try and try and try, but he had NO interest in recovery - only in utterly and thoroughly defeating and punishing his wife for interfering with his personal life and "making him look bad." Too bad he never realized he didn't need any help for that.

SNL used passive-aggressive, gaslighting, guilt-tripping and word-twisting behaviour in the extreme, until his wife was having a nervous breakdown right here on this forum. They were both banned. I have never seen anything approaching his level of cold-blooded cruelty and pettiness and selfishness - until now.

And what for? To prove he was "right" and his wife was wrong? To make sure he "won" and she lost? To punish her and make her suffer and make her sorry she ever dared question anything he did?

Well, he suceeded. He won. His wife suffered terribly and so did the rest of his family. But He Won. And we're still here talking about it today.
Mulan

Do any of you have a link for the SNL saga you are referring to? For the sake of education, I'd like to see it.

I've watched you post here for quite some time now (years) reserving judgment, but with a growing sense that you could become the next SNL - you are not as depraved (yet) toward your wife - but you could if you continue on this path.


Not even close...and actually insulting in my opinion.

committed

I agree. And, I think it would be helpful to BS's who are struggling with recovery, to discuss how you know whether a WS is a FWS. I know this has been discussed before. But I am wondering, for example, how long does it take for a WS to really become sorry for the hurt they have caused, and to truly want to do what it takes to make it up to the BS? I hear FWS (really former) who realize the pain they've caused and are willing to do whatever it takes... Extraordinary Care. Then I hear others (not Former???) who just want to "move past it..." Are they still foggy? Are they "former" or are they still in danger of backsliding? How long does it usually take, if the WS is truly on the road to recovery?


Exactly. Then wouldn't they be not really Former?

What are some signs a BS can watch for? What would help someone who is being gaslighted?

Patriot, have you told your BW the ENTIRE truth yet?

You were asking where you have control. The control is in the lying. It's manipulation, aka, control. You're not giving your BW the truth to make her own choices for one. At some point, she may give up. This road is tooooo hard for this kind of stuff going on. I wouldn't even consider it recovery if you're still lying to her.

How about lying by ommission? Are you doing that?

Patriot - You know that I'm divorced, so take this with a grain of salt. I got so tired of fighting for my marriage, with hubby continuing on his path.

If I were you, I would put your wife on the house deed. I would sign a paper to help pay for college for your son.

The problem (for me) is that this stuff has happened over again. The stakes keep getting raised.

You need to figure out that your marriage has been forever changed because of your actions. You will need to take EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS from here on out - and that includes not doing anything that could lead to an affair, or anything that could be PERCEIVED to lead to an affair.

Absolutely. You control your wife by controlling the truth. Nobody can make an honest decision when they do not have all the facts, and when you withold the facts you rob your wife of control over HER life and keep all that control entirely for yourself.

People who control the truth keep others dangling like puppets on strings. They seem to enjoy the "power" they have by constantly jerking those strings and then pretending not to understand when the puppets strenuously object to this treatment.

They pretend to be victims of their own suffering puppets but are absolutely determined to remain a victim. Why? Because victims cannot be held responsible for their actions. They're victims, remember? Victims Deserve No Consequences!

Sad, sad, sad. What a pathetic waste of a marriage, a family and several lives.
Mulan

This is my husband right here. I have started talking to my MC about this last week. She told me my H is playing the anger card on me too. Using my "anger" to throw it back in my face and then "HE becomes the victim". It is sick. I am sick. Literally. After making a horrible comment to me yesterday, to further lower my self esteem, he asked ME for affirmation and hugs (after an apology). Like how on earth is HE ever going to get through it.

Grrrrrr........

*edited

mopey, if you haven't already, please check out the links in my sig line . . . and good luck.
Mulan

I'm only still continuing to post to Patriot because apparently his wife still might consider remaining married. I got so sick of the behavior that I got a divorce. But maybe he has some redeeming factors.

Also I give him some points because apparently the son is still close to him.

believer ~ I think it is going to take nothing short of a miraculous turn around on his part to save this marriage.


This is Pat to a T.

Mulan, I have checked out those links awhile back and THAT is where I STARTED learning about this stuff. And I really do hope I thanked you for those threads in the past, if not, THANK YOU.

Knowledge is power and the more I have learned, the more I KNOW I am not crazy. I can SEE the behavior.

Luck? I too need a miracle. Thanks.

BR - I've seen lots of miraculous turn arounds here. I forget when Pat and Frozen started posting, but I've been doing this for 5 years. Ended up divorced, but I think we could have made it.

The most person most dangerous to the marriage now is Frozen, and apparently she is still interested. I would have been long gone.

It just hurts to see two people so close to turning things around give up.

I don't think they are close to turning it around.

Frozen has grown by leaps and bounds, Pat has hidden behind her struggles as a martyr and used her flaws to protect himself from scrutiny.

To some extent, you can say that he is only now exposed, after three years of hidden agendas. But I am not even sure he is fully exposed yet.

She's lovebusted deeply into the red. Even now, he is peppering her with disrespect and demands, digging himself in deeper and deeper.

As far as I am concerned, she's earned her ticket out of this marriage.

I recommended the book "Why Does He Do That?" to your wife, and you might consider reading it as well. One line in there that really struck me went something like this:

He needs to stop focussing on her behavior and his feelings and start focussing on her feelings and his behavior.

Think about how she feels. She's already been betrayed and now she's caught you lying. You lied to avoid consequences to your actions.

My husband is a charming man. There is much to admire about him. And yet, our marriage has been a nightmare for me. Why? He hasn't wanted to consider my feelings when he made his choices.

We are following the POJA. If I ever caught him in a lie, it would be over. I'd turn the page. I'd never want to see him again.

One lie, and it would be over.

If your wife is willing to talk with the Harleys to try to straighten this out, consider yourself very, very lucky. You may not appreciate the seriousness of what you have done. My recommendation to you is to focus on following the POJA, promising her that every choice you make will be with her interests in mind. That means you never lie, even if you think there is nothing "wrong" with what you are doing. The point isn't whether something is wrong or not. The point is something is negative for her, and for that reason you don't do it.

I can imagine you might be quite confused now about why this big fuss about something you didn't think was wrong. My heart goes out to you, too. I know that my husband thinks that, if he has to always consider my feelings, then his feelings are never considered. You said you felt like a prisoner. He has said he feels trapped. What we are trying to do is to find what works for both of us. It's not exactly what he wants to do, and it's not exactly what I want to do, but it's what works for both. Good luck to you.

Cherishing

PS. Jayne241 asked how you can tell if a WS is a FWS. In my opinion, it is that the FWS starts to focus on the BS's feelings and the WS's behavior.

My husband is very similiar to Patriot. He JUST sent me this e-mail (part of it)............


I'm done. He KNOWs a lot of what has been causing me pain and doesn't do anything about it.

I'm going to post this on my thread. I just wanted to post here to give a birds eye view of what I consider to be victimish.

Cherishing...great post. I agree 100%.

My H told me himself since the BEGINNING of RECOVERY...4 years ago.."don't listen to what I SAY, watch what I DO"..and just like Dr. Harley says on his video, he has been constantly making REPARATIONS to ME..BEHAVIORAL ACTIONS to make up for what he did to me..he does this on HIS OWN..without me asking...he goes OVERBOARD it seems to me sometimes in explaining his conversations with women or his lateness or whatever...

You can DO this too...if you choose to do so...it doesn't take ROCKET SCIENCE...BEHAVIORAL ACTIONS that you choose to do on your own ...to EVIDENCE your LOVE for her...

THIS IS YOUR WORK..not HERS...

mimi:

Right on! (that phrase dates me).

This thread is about hypotheticals 2 hide or avoid facing what's ac2ally happening. Don't know why: Fear? Patriot afraid of himself or what he's doing or might do?

"Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse. It uses persistent denials of fact which, as they build up over time, make the victim progressively anxious, confused, and less able to trust his or her own memory and perception. A variation of gaslighting, used as a form of harassment, is to subtly alter aspects of a victim's environment, thereby upsetting his or her peace of mind, sense of security, etc."

I ac2ally agree with Mulan, I think it was, who first suggested this.

But never mind.

What about firs principles here?

Froz is scared because she doesn't feel she can trust Patriot. What should patriot do, first and foremost?

Comfort her. Respect her enough 2 be truthful and honest with her.

Need an accountability partner? What for?? And who better than your own wife?

Oh, wait a minute - your W doesn't want you 2 have an association that would require an accountability partner?

Easy answer: Don't have those associations. Stop mulling over the differences between consequences and punishment - or any other putative synonym that might come along.

Look right in front of you. See anything wrong? Correct that, then look for any other areas for improvement and correct those as well.

Don't discuss marriage with anyone other than the person your married 2.

-ol' 2long

my beloved asked me to offer my thoughts on this thread. I'm sorry it's taken me so long to get to it. I hope you still get to see them and it makes a difference.

About consequences...

1- We don't get to always get to know what the consequences of our actions are anywhere close to the time of decision making.

There is a lag time between cause and effect that delays the results of our choices from becoming evident to us. For example the generation that was alive during the beginning of the industrial revolution and which started burning fossil fuels never dreamed of global warming. Now 2 generations later we still have a difficult time even convincing some people that it's a reality and it's almost to the point of no return as far as maintaining a livable planet eco-system. Are there consequences to choices? Always! Do we know what they are at the time of decision making? Seldom.

2- Consequences are only effective learning tools IF they can be properly connected with the choices and actions that precipitated them.

Our brains are built to make associations. We form associations based usually on proximity of events. Proximity of events however may have nothing to do with events relating to each other.

The story is told of a monkey that lived in a cage in a zoo which happened to be in the approach path of a local airport. As planes would fly overhead the monkey was frightened and rattled the bars on it's cage. The first time the monkey did this he learned that when he rattled the bars on his cage the noise gradually passed further and further away. The monkey concluded that his ferocious cage rattling was scaring away the monster and so continued doing it. To the monkey it believed that it's actions are what made the planes retreat. How many times are we exactly like the monkey in thinking that our choices and actions are causing things? If then our perceptions can be so far off the mark with causes and effects how can you be sure you have anything that you've experienced properly associated with your choices and actions?

Conclusion:
To the heart of the matter then. Does the choice to have an affair have a consequence? Absolutely. But when will you know what that consequence is? Probably not for some time, perhaps not until you are near or at the point of no return. What then do you perceive in your relationship during the time of decision making about having an affair? The consequences of PREVIOUS relationship skills (or lack thereof) and choices that you've made using those skills. As my wife would say the consequences of your character(s) manifest in your relationship up to that point. And I would add WITH the lag time effects of them manifesting to you.

Therefore if you have 'disastrous consequences' shortly after choosing to have an affair guess what you're actually experiencing? You are experiencing the coming home to roost of how you have both been choosing and acting PRIOR to the start of the affair. The fact is that is what led or brought you to that point of making the choice to have the affair in the first place. The lamentable reality is that by the time you've made that choice the 'consequences' of which you have yet to even begin to experience, you are experiencing what you call 'disastrous' results.

I hope this insight serves to sober you a little bit about what you believe are the consequences of your choices. I know this awareness sobers me. (when I remember it) I often remind myself that I don't get to know what the consequences of my actions are when I make choices, not in full anyway. I use this to help me be more careful and stop to think just a little longer before I give in to some compulsive urge.

The last thing I want to say on this is that there is a process of making amends in recovery. If you've ever attempted to make amends for anything with a sincere effort and desire you learn that it involves a change of character to actually do so. Changing one's character is not easy. I don't believe it can be done by a person alone and actually requires the help of a higher power, at least that seems to be the reality for me. Having worked for years to change my own character I've found it to be nigh impossible for me to change without the help of higher power(s).

I wish you and your family every happiness, joy, fulfillment and success.

You and I don't get to know the consequences in time to feel them in time to choose out of mistakes up front. We can however acknowledge our mistakes and amend them hopefully before the things we feel which are the actual consequences of previous choices overwhelms us. That is what we will do if we are wise. If we are not wise we will get to experience the overwhelm. Consequences tend to accumulate as we persist in our beliefs and chosen paths.

While we may not be able to connect the dots directly to our choices we CAN discern if pathways in general are leading us to a happy result or an unhappy one. We need to learn to trust the process and pay attention as we sift out what aspects of our characters are leading us to happiness or to misery.

My suggestion is that you focus on building your character and overcoming those qualities which bring you misery as near as you can discern what they are. Don't wait until you have to feel the consequences of your mistakes before you start working on what led you to make the mistakes in the first place. By then it may be too costly and painful already. Be wise instead and get to work on the roots of your character.

take what helps and leave the rest.