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Anyone else here notice that you may be responding to a blank wall?

Pat has not responded here to his very own thread in nearly a week since Froz's revalation.

I do wish Froz and Pat good luck with their recovery, but based on what Froz has reported, the failure of Pat to protect his own weaknesses, will be their undoing.

Dr H says that that is the most important thing in recognizing why you do or did what you did.

don't know what else to say?

Al Blessings,
Jerry

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Yes, I feel the same about the silence.

As TST put it on my thread....

He's avoiding the conflict that he himself is creating.

Come on Pat. Spit out what's up and face your fears. We are here because we want to help you save the marriage you claim to want.


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



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I am not avoiding conflict. I have some email conflict. I have conflict here and at home. So there is no avoiding it. Simple truth. Not feeling sorry for me.

So to say I am conflict avoiding is false. what would you like to talk about?

I have a call tomorrow evening with Kim. Until then, no relationship talks will ensue. Pretty simple. I tried to talk about things and that was not received well. The boundary was stated that no negotiations will happen until after discussions with the Harleys.

I thought that talking about things was a better idea than doing nothing, which is what I am doing now. Yes, even in the face of being told not to talk about things. That was not the case.

So, I really don't know what you would like to talk about. As I see it, I am out in the open here anyway, so we can talk about anything.

I am at work right now and can't really focus on this right at this moment, but I will post some responses this evening and we can see what happens.

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Quote
Quote:
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I would like to stop hurting my wife.


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Really??? But you need someone to hold your hand and tell you to not do it? I don't know how to say this without appearing to 2 x 4 you...but needing an accountability partner to stop hurting your wife sounds very childish to me. It seems to me that it is all about appearances.

I would strongly suggest that if you truly need that...intensive IC would likely be your first step.

So, what gives you the right to lie to your wife? And if your answer is a simple..."I don't have the right...." then why take away her ability to make decisions about her own life based on truth?

Don't you realize that you should count your lucky stars that Froz even married you after what you did? You didn't deserve her...she gave you a gift and this is how you repay her? Think about how self centered and cruel that is. You owe her nothing less than EVERYTHING.

So, let me ask you...are you still a liar? About what? Would you be willing to truly put that to a test with a polygraph? If not...why not? I mean you have honestly shown yourself to be untrustworthy over a long stretch of time...is there really any reason to believe anything you say at this point?

Look at the difference in recovery between you and TST. What he has done in a few short months is more than you have done in three years.


How about answering the above questions.

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ok. here is something

the following is my thoughts, which I am tossing out there to have them be seen. I am not trying to manipulate anyone.

I lie to avoid conflict. I believe, to varying degrees, that frozen over reacts to my actions, so I lie to avoid the conflict of that. In my mind I justify it because I am not doing anything wrong and she just overreacts.

reminder.... this is my internal thinking and I SEE flaws in it. Again, not trying to persuade anyone here.

a little over three years ago was DDay. Before I had an affair that lasted 1.5 years, I had not had one. Since that time, I have not had one. These are important facts to me. they seem less important to people here and I don't understand why. to me, it is the whole reason we are all here.

if there was no affair, you wouldn't be here, save the occasional idiot looking for a good time reading this stuff.

so, if I stop the affair, and take some steps to not do it again, isn't that a great thing?

I have not had any more inappropriate relationships with women. that is my stance. Maybe people here see it otherwise. I am willing to attempt to defend my position. I certainly don't go ****** around with the office fluzzies like some others. In fact, I pretty much do my work in the day and come home on or about the time I am supposed to. I don't go hardly anywhere alone. Most of the time, if it without frozen, I take a kid.

I am probably starting to defend... I have ADD and my mind wanders in this posts.

so I will stop. I lie because I think it is overreacting to explode over a conversation with a female. She did not talk about her relationship at length. I was not asked for advice. I was polite and when I left the situation, I couldn't have cared less. All during this time, it was well known that I was married and I mentioned "I'll need to check with my wife" all the time on anything with anyone.

And I did check with her.

So this is what is in my head. trying to put myself in her shoes really doesn't seem to be doing it. I am terrible at empathy because I can just simply disconnect at will.

sometime not at will I think. I don't know.

I understand that the lack of empathy is causing a big problem. I understand that lying is wrong and there is no excuse.

But my mind still work the way it does. Any ideas on how to change that?

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MEDC

I have answered some of that. Holding my hand? it seems in all other things I can manage just fine, but in a romantic relationship, nope. As far as needing someone to hold my hand, no I don't.

Yes, I realize I am lucky to have her and that what she did was give me a gift.

Polygraph? I am not a big fan of them because I have taken a few before when I was younger. The box said I lied. Come to find out, irrefutable proof said I didn't... but as far as taking one, sure. I'll take one.

No, I suppose there is no reason to believe anything I say.

Congratulations to TST. He and his wife should certainly be proud. And they seem happy as well. that is a very good story.

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I have conflict here and at home.


Conflict that you yourself created? Will you be more specific about the conflicts you're referring to?

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So to say I am conflict avoiding is false.


It's always a play on words with you isn't it? To try to worm your way around the truth. Yes, we all see that you are up to your ears in conflict that you created. And YES, you are avoiding the conflict that you created. You created this thread and have been avoiding it because it conflicts with what you want to hear. Ex:

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I tried to talk about things and that was not received well.


What you were trying to do was cry about the mess you're in, disguising it as an attempt to prove to Frozen and everyone else that she is obsessing and punishing you, in my opinon. And when everyone saw right through you and challenged you, you bailed and therefore avoided the conflict.

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I have a call tomorrow evening with Kim. Until then, no relationship talks will ensue.


No relationship talks with us, or with Frozen? I think Frozen would find it healing if you were getting help from the people who "get it". Or is that another excuse to avoid conflict? You didn't mind talking about this stuff when you started the thread. If we all agreed with you, I wonder if you'd be posting away.....

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So, I really don't know what you would like to talk about. As I see it, I am out in the open here anyway, so we can talk about anything.


O.K., are you still holding back truths from Frozen?

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I am at work right now and can't really focus on this right at this moment, but I will post some responses this evening and we can see what happens.


I certaintly understand your need to work, but I do hope that you make Frozen your #1 priority by answering some of the hard questions that were asked of you. Avoiding conflict is way harder and emotionally draining than actually working through it. One resolves, the other festers and gets bigger.


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



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Pat...you really believe your own bullchit don't you?

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A suggestion for future use, if a fellow employee of the opposite sex starts with her relationship problems, refer her to the company wellness program who, will, in turn refer her to a counselor. This has happened to my FWH and this was the path he took, and then he came home and told me about it. Next time I saw her socially, I asked if she and "Bob" were doing ok. This let her know that my H tells me everything. Just in case she was trying to make a play for him, this put her on notice to find another "knight" GF


Marriages don't fail, people do. (And I don't recall who said it)
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Pat...you really believe your own bullchit don't you?

for the moment, yeah.. I do. But I see chinks in the armor. Are there flaws? Are they fatal flaws?

Look, I want to get to some revelation about all this and wake up tomorrow being different, but I seriously doubt it is going to happen with snide remarks and rude ******.

the point is, i want to think differently. I want to behave differently. Simply choosing to be different isn't cutting it because you can only will yourself into something so long. That is no plan to change behavior.

A plan to change behavior. That's what is needed.

I'm babbling because I am still at work.

I will respond in a little while.

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I lie to avoid conflict. I believe, to varying degrees, that frozen over reacts to my actions, so I lie to avoid the conflict of that. In my mind I justify it because I am not doing anything wrong and she just overreacts.


Frozen has every right to be angry when she hears something that you've done to hurt her. And I guarantee you that if she is overreacting, it is because the pain and anger is compounded with each lie and each disclosure. And then you compound her pain EXPONENTIALLY when you say she's overreacting and blame her for you not feeling safe enough to comfort her.

In your own little selfish world, you are basically saying that you are allowed to hurt frozen and even lie to her and she is not allowed to get "that upset".

Anger is a healthy emotion. It alerts you to harms that are being done to you. It is a secondary emotion to pain.

You are using the anger card on Frozen. You are hurting her and when she gets upset about it, you throw it back in her face and blame her because you don't want to face what you have done. You don't want to see yourself in her mirror.

And if you see flaws in this thinking, why do you continue to do it? Why don't you just surrender your pride for the woman you claim to love? Put your image and your fears aside and help her heal. DEAL with the consequences and bend over backwards making it up to her. Make her feel safe.

And NEVER allow yourself to talk R with another woman again so Frozen will feel safe.

Now if you don't think you can do these things then you need to be honest and quit stringing her along.

And pride is a sin.


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



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A suggestion for future use, if a fellow employee of the opposite sex starts with her relationship problems, refer her to the company wellness program who, will, in turn refer her to a counselor. This has happened to my FWH and this was the path he took, and then he came home and told me about it. Next time I saw her socially, I asked if she and "Bob" were doing ok. This let her know that my H tells me everything. Just in case she was trying to make a play for him, this put her on notice to find another "knight" GF


GF, this is the BEST defense strategy I have seen yet for this situation. Brilliant. All of it. Thank you.


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



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Are there flaws? Are they fatal flaws?


Yes and yes. The flaw is putting your pride and fears before your BW's pain. And yes, that is a fatal flaw in a marriage.

You want to change your behavior? When you get home, get on your knees and beg her forgivess for putting her through this hale. Then ask her to write down for you what she needs from you and then break your back to do everything on that list, and then some.

And by doing this you won't be meeting her "demands", you'll be meeting her "needs" so that she can fall in love with you again.

Want to start tonight?


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



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Simply choosing to be different isn't cutting it because you can only will yourself into something so long.


What are you having to "will" yourself into Pat?


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



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Conflict that you yourself created? Will you be more specific about the conflicts you're referring to?
Yes, I created most of this conflict. Did you say it like that because you heard me say that I am in conflict that I did not create? Here is the world according to patriot on this. My having an affair created the majority of conflict. The big issue. Had I not had an affair, most of the current state of things probably would not be this way. But maybe it would. Frozen has stated that affair or not, the deception is not ok. My form of deception is “stay out of trouble” lying. And the largest part of that is ommission. But maybe, without having an affair in the past, talking to some female at work would be a non-issue and then there would be nothing to get into trouble for…. I know that I created conflict by having an affair. I am not blind to that.

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It's always a play on words with you isn't it? To try to worm your way around the truth. Yes, we all see that you are up to your ears in conflict that you created. And YES, you are avoiding the conflict that you created. You created this thread and have been avoiding it because it conflicts with what you want to hear.
No, it is not always a play on words with me. Frankly, I am not sure where the play is in that remark. I’m not working my way around truth. I don’t see how it appears I am doing that.

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What you were trying to do was cry about the mess you're in, disguising it as an attempt to prove to Frozen and everyone else that she is obsessing and punishing you, in my opinon. And when everyone saw right through you and challenged you, you bailed and therefore avoided the conflict.
Ok. Here I am. Please point out where I did these things. Cry about the mess? I don’t see it. From the passive aggressive angle, I am suppose to get my feelings out so they don’t come out sideways. But, when I get the feelings out, it is always seen as crying. Ok. That is getting really old. How are you SUPPOSED to get your feelings out and it isn’t wrong? I know that holding them in is a bad idea. So they have to get out. Is the problem that I shouldn’t feel upset about things?

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No relationship talks with us, or with Frozen? I think Frozen would find it healing if you were getting help from the people who "get it". Or is that another excuse to avoid conflict? You didn't mind talking about this stuff when you started the thread. If we all agreed with you, I wonder if you'd be posting away.....
Just with her. I can talk here. She reads it. She can ask me about things if she chooses to.

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O.K., are you still holding back truths from Frozen?

I don’t think so, but I have been through that several times already. To me, the point is I stopped the affair over 3 years ago. I have not relapsed. No matter where I have worked or been, I have not had ONE inappropriate email, phonecall, chat conversation, list of websites, google search, porn material or credit card expenditure that was the beginnings of or accrued during the conduct of an affair. I am forgetful all the time. I would leave something out. I mean seriously, I got caught because I checked my email from work and she saw like 15 emails from OW in the window. 3 years later, I haven’t been caught doing anything and I can promise you she has all the access she never used to have. But then this brings me to thinking of an issue. People say this isn’t enough. What is? Changing everything about me? Changing something? If it is not enough to give all the accesses and always show the ‘books’ then what beyond that must be done? Honest question. I read someone the other day say that stopping the affair and never doing it again was not enough? What is the BS entitled to?

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I certaintly understand your need to work, but I do hope that you make Frozen your #1 priority by answering some of the hard questions that were asked of you. Avoiding conflict is way harder and emotionally draining than actually working through it. One resolves, the other festers and gets bigger.

What questions has I missed here? Any? Please let me know, if you will please.

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[quote]pride and fears[quote]

I was thinking about this remark. What am I doing that is prideful? That 3 years later I am not perfect? That 3 years later I still have some problems? That I haven't signed over house, money, and all of it to her? That I haven't done a post-nup granting her first right of refusal of all property should we divorce?

What is/are the prideful action(s)

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How do you feel about signing half the house over to your wife and an agreement for college costs?

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fine, why?

... well, a little apprehensive about college costs. But paying a bill hasn't been my issue here. Frozen has said more than once providing is a strong quality I possess.

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From my viewpoint, the BS is entitled to believe there is no other man or woman in the world in the viewpoint of the WS. The only lies that are permitted are those associated with birthday and Christmas gifts, the only deceit is when they are planning something special for the BS. The thought process of the WS should be, not how to defend themselves against what is perceived to be an accusation, but to relieve the mind of the BS. Your mindset should be knowing that every time you hurt your spouse you have hurt yourself. Everytime you disrespect your spouse, you disrespect yourself. You know the old 2 hearts, 2 souls equals one love. You love yourself and you will love your spouse in the proper way. Throw out the trash in your past that "made" you act up. The only ego trip a WS needs is to see the love in the eyes of their BS, after the emotional assault the WS has given them. Go forward into tomorrow with a renewed spirit and soul.....Prayers for you both GF


Marriages don't fail, people do. (And I don't recall who said it)
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GoingForward - Good post.

Patriot - I'm looking at it from my own point of view. I would need some kind of ACTION from you that you are intending to really work on things. It is almost like a high cost compensation, although affairs really can't be compensated for. It is something to level the playing field.

But, then, I'm divorced.

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