tyk - again, I agree with your thoughts on this. I have used all the arguments that I could think of, each expressed in calm and measured ways, etc and all to no avail. Yes her position is irrational. That's what makes it difficult for me to deal with.

I have the appt with my C on Friday. My W may join me. We'll see.

I really don't know the detailed definition of Plan B as it would apply in my situation. I'll read up on that.

Speaking of reading, a friend recommended "No More Mr Nice Guy", which I have started reading today. Have only read a few pages but already see a lot of me in what the author is saying, i.e. that attempts to be a "Nice Guy" are often misguided and don't bring about the results that we want.

And maybe these points are all connected in a way. I agree with you, bigkahuna and tyk, that my W is using this issue as a weapon against me. What her motivation would be I don't pretend to know but whatever it may be I am sure that it is not helping us recover.

Is she in counseling? Whether she chooses to join you or not, I think I would insist that she go to IC. If not the one that you use, then one that you approve.

Also, have you asked her if she WANTS to get past that issue? That might lead to an interesting discussion.

I guess the thing of it is that since she is exhibiting the charachteristics of a WS, then you are reasonable to treat her as a WS, which means that BK is right, Plan B is appropriate. That also means that discussing the relationship is pointless because you are dealing with a WS mentality, not a person that is agreeing to work on the marriage.

Pretty much, she needs to get knocked off her high horse and accept that what she did was wrong, what you did was a necessary and unfortunate response to her behavior and start figuring out a way to pick up the pieces with you. Until she gets to that point, you're spinning your wheels.

TM,
I think you would do well to remember that your W's A was a 3 and 1/2 year LTA. Expect recovery to take nearly as long as that.

You and your W didn't get there overnight, and will not have full r at your fingertips overnight either.

You are still very close to Dday and exposure. This was very hard for you and I admire your courage to fight the way you did for your M and your family. But your WW is still very foggy and trying desperately to justify her narcissistic behavior for such a long period of time.

She not only subjected you to complete humiliation, but also your son(I suspect some of his teammates know through the grapevine what has occured). Your W is desperate now,and will use any justification she can to convince herself that she is not a horiible wife and mother. What choice does she have?

I would suggest more patience and time before you pull any triggers. This is not going to be easy and is not going to happen overnight.

Please hang in there. I know how angry and bitter you feel having BTDT myself.

Try some prayers, if you are so inclined.

All Blessings,
Jerry

My W, to my surprise, agreed to attend MC with me. We have had 2 sessions with a counselor trained in Imago therapy. Very pro-marriage but not in an extreme sense. My W and I are both comfortable with the counselor and her approach so far. In the second session we raised the issue of my W's resentment and anger over my decision to tell my son about her A. The counselor said that my W needs to talk with the kids and that by doing so may find that her anger and resentment begin to diminish.

My W has not followed this advice yet, saying she is not ready.

I continue to feel that she is using this as an excuse or opportunity to deflect anger away from herself.

She sometimes says the "right things" (e.g. a V-day card with a note: "i hope that our future valentine's days are filled with absolute love and happiness, that we have the opportunity to give that to each other") but seemingly without real feeling.

I guess I hope for that one cathartic moment when my W breaks down and begs my forgiveness. Not because I need her to beg, but because by her doing so I will believe that she gets it, that she understands and is remorseful for the pain that she has caused.

Interestingly I have started posting on another site the focus of which is how "Nice Guys" engage in all kinds of behavior that is destructive to relationships in a misguided attempt to smooth things over, make things better, etc. In my case I can clearly see where I failed in the past to establish clear boundaries of what was acceptable behavior. I find the posters on that site to be much quicker to suggest that I divorce my W, that her past behavior demonstrates a complete lack of respect for me, and that there is no hope of changing her. I'm not quite there yet but I see their point.

We had a blowup last week because I asked her about some text messages to a male acquaintance that she had not told me about. She was incensed that I was bothered by this and she threw her phone on the ground and smashed it.

It has occurred to me that she may have purchased a pay-as-you-go phone and I am wrestling with whether I want to check up on her. On the one hand it seems like a no-brainer but on the other, feeling that I need to do that says to me that she and I have really not made much progress since d-day and that is discouraging at the very least.

I was wondering about you TiM.

Did your W lie about texts? Were they innapropriate in some way?

I know I went through a bit where I felt like you did, that my W was just going through the motions. It really was not until just recently that I began to see signs that she truly "gets it".

Are you guys spending time together? Filled out the EN's and Lovebusters surveys, etc?

In regards to the "telling the kids" issue I would tell your W that if she is not even going to follow the advice of the counselor then you view her continued resentment of you for it as a CHOICE she is making. Ask her how she justifies the idea that you are seeking to work through your anger and issues of her A, while she will not even try to deal with an issue she herself CAUSED.

Overall, how are things? Do you get a sense that progress is being made?

Good to hear from you TiM, just wish things were going better.

TiM

Various parts of your post raise some red flags for me.

It sounds as if your W isnt really demonstrating any real empathy to just how deeply youve been wounded. She sounds very foggy to me.

An exmaple of what I mean is the incident you describe of her being angry over your reaction to text messages to a male acquiantence. SHE was angry? At the very least, her reaction demonstrates a lack of regard for YOUR feelings. You SHOULD be upset. Your W lied to you. She had an A, she continues to blame you for exposing her to your children. Where is the accountability in this?

I think you *should* be concerned about the possibility that your W continues to be involved and I would, if I were in your shoes - check up on her. Put aside the feelings of "what does that say about how much progress we've made thus far" IF you can. These boards are full of folks who have gone through false recoveries.

Im not saying that I think she IS doing something, she very well may not be, but you are not wrong to be suspicious.

yes, I would wholeheartedly second that. Snoop until you are confident there is nothign to be found. Then periodically snoop for no reason whatsoever.

I still snoop on my WW. Not that often, and not in any predictable way, but I'll review the cell statement some, and if I'm in the area over lunch time I'll cruise by OM's apt. I don't expect to find anything, I do it as much to reassure myself as I do to check up on her, if that makes any sense.

I'm sure I'm making something of nothing but I think I will do a little checking. The texts that I mentioned in my previous posts had been deleted (as had all of her texts). This is a pre-d-day behavior pattern, i.e. in the first couple of weeks after d-day the texts were not deleted.

She smashed the cell phone late last week and has made no mention of replacing it. I asked her a couple of days later if she wanted me to stop by AT&T but she was kind of unresponsive.

She still leaves my house about 40 minutes earlier than she needs to pick my daughter up from school. This was one of the times of day that she and OM would typically speak.

I know that she has not contacted him via her old cellphone but perhaps she has been all along with a second phone that I'm unaware of.

If that were the case we would definitely be done and I would really question whether there is some pathology at play here that would make her capable of such a thing.

Sounds like it's time to find out by placing a digital voice recorder in her car....

Ditto the recorder

I may have mentioned this before, but my H and his OW had secret cellphones he used during two of our false recoveries. Our situation lasted longer than most would put up with but we did finally recover. His OW did not...she got a divorce with a huge settlement.

So we had a MC session last week that was very difficult. The gist of it is that I can't forgive my W for the A because she can't demonstrate empathy and remorse, something she is unable to do due to my having told my son about her A with his coach. So, for now, we are stuck in that place.

MC listened to us go at each other for a few minutes and then, stating the obvious, said that if we continue to argue about these things we will destroy any love that is left. She said we need to acknowledge that these things in our past are problems and must now start working on solutions.

Further to the MC's suggestions, my W and I decided the next day to start working on some Imago exercises. The first was to define a vision for our relationship, i.e. how we would like it to be.

So of course we agreed on things like "we would trust each other completely" as a goal. However, one that jumped out at me was one that my wife listed as most important to her: that we respect the other's needs or desires for outside activities.

What concerns me about this is that over the years the only type of outside activities she has ever expressed interest in involve spending time with one or more of her unhappily married friends in singles bars, casinos, etc. This has been the source of many arguments between us over our years together. Furthermore I regard it as an area where I should have set clear boundaries but didn't.

I may be jumping the gun here, and I do plan to raise this during our MC session this week, but if this is something that my W considers to be a requirement for her marital happiness then we may be done. I am not willing to sacrifice any more of my self-respect. It sucks to contemplate what this might mean (D) but I think to tolerate this behavior will only serve to open the door to future betrayal.

TiM

My H and I also used an Imago therapist. We even went to a Imago workshop weekend ( when my H was deep in the middle of his A and I was completely clueless). For us, it didnt help. The only thing that has helped us imo is MB.

I dont blame you for having an issue about your W wanting to spend time "seperately" from you. Marriages that work, work because people spend time together, meeting one anothers respective emotional needs. When you spend time apart, it opens the door for someone else to start meeting some of those needs.

HUGE red flag for me that she is still very foggy.

If I remember correctly, your W is opposed to MB, is that correct? She wasnt willing to fill out EN questionares or "didnt know" alot of the answers about herself?

Hi JustKim - I wonder if Imago failed because your H was in the middle of the A. I would think it would be difficult for any type of counseling to work in that situation.

It was a huge step for my W to agree to attend MC so we will stick with this as long as we seem to be making any forward progress. I plan to raise this issue of "outside activities" first with my W (to see if I am misinterpreting what she meant) and then with the MC.

I think my W has low self-esteem and has always relied on her physical attractiveness to give it a boost. Plus she had a failed first marriage (H was unfaithful) and has made comments to me over the years e.g. "I'll never put myself in a situation where I need a man", "you are not my father", "I don't need to ask your permission", etc.

So I'm hoping that the Imago therapy will bring some of this out, at least to the point that my W understand herself a bit better, hopefully to our mutual benefit. She acknowledeges that her unhappiness pre-dates me.

As for MB, she had a very intense negative reaction toward it. I don't really know why but have not been interested in battling her to learn more.

You are correct that she has not completed the EN survey. She said at the time that she was not sure that she knew how to answer the questions. I completed mine and guessed at hers but we have not discussed.