Hi FF.

No comment on McCain. I'm a Democrat. We're going to win.

Not a reason to win the Presidency but Obama does proclaim to be married to the love of his life!

gc:

I'm a democrat in republican clothing!

I must say that I was planning on voting for McCain if the choice was McCain vs Obama. Clinton if she won the nomination.

But, although I don't feel so strongly antagonistic about repentant married affair partners (a very rare beast, 2 be sure), I think I need 2 take a personal stand here, based on these "developments."

If it later 2rns out that Obama or Romney ever had affairs and didn't learn anything positive from the experience (like Giuliani and McCain, or slimy Salamander Gingrich, should he ever decide 2 run)...

Can we elect an empty seat?

"If I'm nominated, I will not run! If I'm elected, I will not serve!" - the late Patrick Layton Paulsen.

-ol' 2long

Back atch, GC. Miss talking to ya. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here's some more -

When McCain returned to the United States in 1973 after more than five years as a prisoner of war, he found his wife was a different person. Carol McCain, once a model, had been badly injured in a car wreck in 1969. The accident "left her 4 inches shorter and on crutches, and she gained a good deal of weight."


Despite her injures, she had refused to allow her POW husband to be notified about her condition, fearing that such news would not be good for him while he was being held prisoner.


But, just a couple years later, McCain, while pondering a future in politics, met Cindy Hensley, an attractive 25-year-old woman from a very wealthy politically-connected Arizona family. While still married to Carol, McCain began an adulterous relationship with Cindy. He married Cindy in May 1980 just a month after dumping his crippled wife and securing a divorce.


McCain followed his young, millionairess wife back to Arizona.

Wow..not that I was a huge McCain fan, but I did think he was a decent man. Now I am disgusted. What a terrible ordeal for his wife to go through! You would think after being delivered from near death experiences, he would have come home with a heightened sense of spirituality rather than a cheating mindset. How sad that he could sacrifice to be a hero to his country, but could not do the same for his family.

I'm sure of the popularity of what I'm about to say! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

On the more general topic, my view is that I'm not voting for "husband/wife-in-chief" or "moral leader-in-chief". Many of our presidents and great world leaders have had incidents of infidelity in their lives and it proved no great hinderance to doing what was right for America and/or the world. Presidents like FDR, Ike, JFK, LBJ, WJC all were involved in extra-marital piccadillos that were overlooked by almost all voters. There have been 10 presidents in my lifetime and at least half have the stain of infidelity.

On the whole, I'd much rather have a president with a less than stellar personal life than a "reverend-in-chief". The latter is very scary to me. Piousness is equally frightening. The most pious man we have elected during my life was, in my opinion, the most ineffective president since Harding, Jimmy Carter. What a disaster he turned out to be.

I won't defend McCain's former behavior, but I will say this...I doubt any of us are in a position to judge his actions simply because we don't know the whole story. By that I mean that McCain spent 5 years in the "Hanoi Hilton". By all accounts it was a site of incredible mental and physical torture for American POWs the likes of which none of us here have even the faintest notion.

It's very easy to sit back in our comfortable American chairs in our homes and workplaces in the most free nation that has ever existed and comment on the actions of one who endured and survived what many of us here would have succumbed to. We don't know that what he did was driven by the normal human impulses we see too often here, or whether his "vacation" in North Vietnam played some role, minor or significant.

I am not attempting to change anyone's mind, just expressing my feelings on the subject.

Heartpain, great post.

I am not electing a spouse; I am electing someone to run the national government. It is my opinion that qualities that make a good spouse are different than those that make a good president. Jimmy Carter lusted only in his heart; but he has made a much better ex-President than he did a President. By all accounts, President GW Bush has been a faithful husband; I think he has been an unmitigated disaster as President.

There are many other indicators of Presidential success that I would look at before marital fidelity, which is actually very low on my list. Someone who was able to overcome adversity and thrive....that's an excellent indicator, IMHO.

PK

I'm electing a president - and if a man can't keep his commitments to those he professes to love the most, then how can expect that he can uphold his commitment to a document - the Constitution?

There are many of us who recognize that private life washes over into public life. There's always a private life situation becoming public and interfering with the president's ability to uphold his office. Better vote for integrity and qualifications.

McCain has demonstrated his lack of fitness for office AS A REPUBLICAN. The democrats are doing happy dances right now because there are going to be TWO democrat candidates on the ballot - one pretending to be a republican so he can pull the other 1/2 of the country. Well I won't vote for such a person - the man is evil. And finding out the extent of his betrayal in his marriage is the capstone on what I already knew.

Cheer Graycloud - democrats have been well-served this election season. You'd better have no complaints about how you are represented after this election.

The only reason Huckabee's still playing because he's part of that "anyone but a Mormon" crowd - stupid. They'll get the representation they deserve too - just not the representation this country needs. I'll take Mitt's resume over any other candidate - business development, leadership in a tough situation, the ability to deal with international egos and still get things done, health care reform, etc. The man can handle the economy better than anyone else on the ballot. But we won't get him, simply because there's the stupid bigots of this world who will vote for an unqualified, angry, double-speaking imbecil who will give our country to Mexico before they'd vote for a qualified Mormon.

He has been in his affairage for 27 years. I think he dumped his wife and married this adulteress in 1980. I guess sometimes true-love wins?

I find it particularly disgusting that he dumped his wife when she needed him the most. Kind of like what Gingrich did to his first wife. Didn't Newter have his first wife served her divorce papers (so he could marry his adulteress)when she was in hospital dying from cancer? Must be a republican thing I guess. (For the record I'm an independent . . . probably voting for Ron Paul if he lasts that long). This is going to be one sad election year.

Go Dr. NO! Go Dr. NO!

I wouldn’t elect Mitt for dogcatcher and that has nothing to do with him being a Mormon. He changes his convictions and stances on substantial issues whenever it is political expedient for him to do so. The candidate Mitt wouldn't recognize the former governor Mitt if they met and shook hands. The man has not integrity at all. He is a bigger flip-flopper than John Kerry was . . . and that is saying something.

This whole democrat/republican thing is an archaic machination that needs to go away.

I've been toying with the idea of trying to enlist the ACLU to represent me in a lawsuit against both parties. Exclusion of independent voters from the primary process is a disenfranchisement that is unconstitutional. The caucus process is also in that category as it most often involves the lack of a 'secret ballot'.

It seems that trying to shoehorn all of the myriad and major issues of the day into just two categories is ludicrous and small-minded at best.

Since his election in CA, I've maintained that excluding party affilations, a presidential candidate maintaining very similar positions to the 'Governator", would easily win 60+ percent of the vote in a general election. That is if voters voted their consciences and not just mindlessly pulling the lever for their "team".

A far-left 'loon' or a far-right 'zealot' could never win a general election. Conversely, it is difficult for a moderate to be nominated. Therefore, candidates run to the extremes during the nomination process and to the center during the general election. This encourages 'flip-flopping' as exemplified by Kerry and he who seems to be supported by most of the replyers here.

Our system rewards dishonesty and it needs to be changed.

I wanted to puke last night when I heard McCain say these words, "If I'm elected I promise to serve my country to the best of my ability for the rest of my life." As his past "promises" demonstrate, what he means is unless something better comes along or it gets too hard.

While I have no reason to doubt the claims below, I do not have personal knowledge that they are true. This comes from the 'log cabin republicans'. I'm sure that if false it can be convincingly disputed with factual, historical evidence.

As it stands now, however, it's concrete evidence of how our system encourages dishonesty.

Mitt Romney's Record

ABORTION

From the Left:

Romney ran against Senator Edward M. Kennedy in 1994. During a debate, Romney declared: "I believe that abortion should be safe and legal in this country. I have since the time that my mom took that position when she ran in 1970 as a US Senate candidate. I believe that since Roe v. Wade has been the law for 20 years we should sustain and support it."
- Boston Globe, March 2, 2006

"I respect and will protect a woman's right to choose."
-2002 Questionnaire for the National Abortion Rights Action League (NARAL)
Boston Globe, July 3, 2005

From the Right:

"I am pro-life. I believe that abortion is the wrong choice except in cases of incest, rape, and to save the life of the mother. I wish the people of America agreed, and that the laws of our nation could reflect that view. But while the nation remains so divided over abortion, I believe that the states, through the democratic process, should determine their own abortion laws and not have them dictated by judicial mandate."
- Boston Globe, Op-Ed, July 26, 2005

More from the Right:

"Every decision I have made as Governor in a very liberal state has been on the side of favoring life." – Governor Romney

- Robert Behre, "Romney Gets S.C. Support," Charleston Post-Courier, January 30, 2007

STEM CELL RESEARCH

From the Left:

"Romney has decided to support experimentation on surplus frozen embryos from in-vitro fertilization procedures."
- National Review Online, February 11, 2005

"At a campaign appearance at Brandeis University in June 2002, Romney strongly endorsed stem cell research."
- Boston Globe, December 17, 2006 Read the article

From the Center:

"Governor Mitt Romney set off a storm of criticism yesterday after he declared in a published interview that he favored banning a specific type of stem cell research. Scientists and the leader of the state Senate accused him of trying to block a promising avenue of research, even as antiabortion groups assailed him for declaring that he did not object to stem cell research involving embryos from fertility clinics."
- Boston Globe, February 11, 2005 Read the article

From the Right:

"I studied the issue for many months, and entered into conversation with experts from across the nation who were looking for consensus solutions, like Stanford's Dr. William Hurlbut. In the end, I became persuaded that the stem-cell debate was grounded in a false premise, and that the way through it was around it: by the use of scientific techniques that could produce the equivalent of embryonic stem cells but without cloning, creating, harming, or destroying developing human lives."
- Governor Mitt Romney, Op-Ed, "A Stem-Cell Solution," National Review Online, June 15, 2007

EMERGENCY CONTRACEPTION

From the Left:

"When he ran for governor in 2002, Romney said he supported expanding access to the emergency contraception pill, a high dose of hormones that women can take to prevent pregnancy up to five days after sex . . . On a questionnaire Planned Parenthood gave to the gubernatorial candidates in 2002, Romney answered 'yes' to the question, 'Do you support efforts to increase access to emergency contraception?' "
- Boston Globe, July 7, 2005

From the Right:

"Yesterday I vetoed a bill that the Legislature forwarded to my desk. Though described by its sponsors as a measure relating to contraception, there is more to it than that. The bill does not involve only the prevention of conception: The drug it authorizes would also terminate life after conception."
- Governor Mitt Romney, Op-Ed, "Why I Vetoed The Contraception Bill," Boston Globe, July 26, 2005 Read the article

GAY RIGHTS

From the Left:

"All citizens deserve equal rights, regardless of their sexual orientation. While he does not support gay marriage, Mitt Romney believes domestic partnership status should be recognized in a way that includes the potential for health benefits and rights of survivorship."
- Romney's 2002 campaign website

"Mitt and Kerry Wish You a Great Pride Weekend! All citizens deserve equal rights, regardless of their sexual preference"
- A flier handed out at "Gay Pride" by the Romney/Healey Campaign See the flier here

"We have discussed a number of important issues such as the Federal Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA), which I have agreed to co-sponsor, and if possible broaden to include housing and credit, and a bill to create a federal panel to find ways to reduce gay and lesbian youth suicide, which I also support. One issue I want to clarify concerns [grammar in context] President Clinton's "don't ask, don't tell, don't pursue" military policy. I believe that the Clinton compromise was a step in the right direction. I am also convinced that it is the first of a number of steps that will ultimately lead to gays and lesbians being able to serve openly and honestly in our nation's military. That goal will only be reached when preventing discrimination against gays and lesbians is a mainstream concern, which is a goal we share…"
- Governor Romney letter to Log Cabin Republicans, October 6, 1994 Read the letter here

From the Right:

Lopez: "And what about the 1994 letter to the Log Cabin Republicans where you indicated you would support the Federal Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA) and seemed open to changing the "don't ask, don't tell" policy in the military? Are those your positions today?

Gov. Romney: "No. I don't see the need for new or special legislation. My experience over the past several years as governor has convinced me that ENDA would be an overly broad law that would open a litigation floodgate and unfairly penalize employers at the hands of activist judges...As for military policy and the 'don't ask, don't tell' policy, I trust the counsel of those in uniform who have set these policies over a dozen years ago. I agree with President Bush's decision to maintain this policy and I would do the same."
- Interview with National Review, December 14, 2006 Read the interview

MARRIAGE AMENDMENT

From the Left:

In 2002, before the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court declared same-sex marriage protected by the Constitution, Romney denounced as "too extreme" the effort by pro-family groups to enact a preemptive state Marriage Protection Amendment prohibiting homosexual marriage, civil unions and same-sex public employee benefits.
- Boston Phoenix, May 14-20, 2004

From the Right:

MSNBC's Joe Scarborough: "Do you support a national constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage?"

Governor Romney: "Boy, I sure do. You know, that's a topic that's really, I think, very important to the country because marriage is not just about adults. Marriage is about the development and nurturing of kids, and in my view, the development of a child is enhanced by having a mom and dad. And so, I think it's very important that we have a national standard because marriage is a status. You get married in one place and then you move to another, you're still married at least in the eyes of the community and the children and the benefits may not follow you, but ultimately we're going to have one standard of marriage in this country and that standard ought to be one man and one woman."
- MSNBC's "Morning Joe" September 17, 2007

GUN RIGHTS

From the Left:

"He [Romney] is a supporter of the federal assault weapons ban."
- Romney 2002 campaign website

More from the Left:

In his 1994 US Senate run, Romney backed two gun-control measures strongly opposed by the National Rifle Association and other gun-rights groups: the Brady Bill, which imposed a five-day waiting period on gun sales, and a ban on certain assault weapons.

"That's not going to make me the hero of the NRA," Romney told the Boston Herald in 1994.

At another campaign stop that year, he told reporters: "I don't line up with the NRA."
- Boston Globe, January 14, 2007 Read the article

From the Right:

"Americans should have the right to own and possess firearms as guaranteed under the U.S. Constitution," said Governor Romney. "I'm proud to be among the many decent, law-abiding men and women who safely use firearms."
- Governor Romney, News Release, January 12, 2007

WAITING PERIODS FOR GUNS

From the Left:

Regarding the Brady Bill which required waiting periods to buy a handgun, Romney stated, "I don't think [the waiting period] will have a massive effect on crime but I think it will have a positive effect."
- Boston Herald, August 1, 1994

From the Right:

"Romney says he still backs the ban on assault weapons, but he won't say whether he stands by the Brady Bill. And after the gun show tour, his campaign declined to say whether he would still describe himself as a supporter of tough gun laws."
- Boston Globe, January 14, 2007 Read the article

MINIMUM WAGE INCREASE

From the Left:

"The minimum wage is important to our economy and Mitt Romney supports minimum wage increase, at least in line with inflation."
- Romney 2002 campaign website

From the Right:

Governor Mitt Romney yesterday rejected the Legislature's plan to raise the state minimum wage to $8 an hour over two years, angering Democratic lawmakers and advocates who accused him of abandoning a 2002 campaign pledge to significantly boost the pay of low-wage workers.
- Boston Globe, July 22, 2006 Read the article

EDUCATION

During his 1994 campaign for Senate he continually called for the abolishment of the Department of Education.
- Club for Growth's White Paper on Mitt Romney

Governor Romney now supports the No Child Left Behind Act.
- Club for Growth's White Paper on Mitt Romney

IMMIGRATION

From the Left:

In a November 2005 interview with the Boston Globe, Romney described immigration proposals by McCain and others as "quite different" from amnesty, because they required illegal immigrants to register with the government, work for years, pay taxes, not take public benefits, and pay a fine before applying for citizenship.

"That's very different than amnesty, where you literally say, 'OK, everybody here gets to stay,' " Romney said in the interview. "It's saying you could work your way into becoming a legal resident of the country by working here without taking benefits and then applying and then paying a fine."

Romney did not specifically endorse McCain's bill, saying he had not yet formulated a full position on immigration. But he did speak approvingly of efforts by McCain and Bush to solve the nation's immigration crisis, calling them "reasonable proposals."

Romney also said in the interview that it was not "practical or economic for the country" to deport the estimated 12 million immigrants living in the US illegally. "These people contribute in many cases to our economy and to our society," he said. "In some cases, they do not. But that's a whole group we're going to have to determine how to deal with."
- Boston Globe, March 16, 2007 Read the article

From the Right:

In his appeals to conservative voters, Romney has made the Arizona senator's work on immigration one of his favorite targets. When McCain and other senators unveiled the latest reform bill two weeks ago, Romney called it the "wrong approach" and immediately launched a television ad slamming "amnesty" for illegal immigrants.
- Boston Globe, June 1, 2007 Read the article

TAXES

From the Left:

"Governor Romney…imposed a slew of fee hikes and tax 'loophole' closures….The largest of these was $259 million worth of fee hikes in FY 2004, the bulk of which came from higher Registry of Deeds fees. Smaller fee hikes, including higher charges for boaters and golfers, we imposed in FY 2003 and FY 2005. Romney also sought $128 million worth of so-called tax loophole closures for FY 2004; $70 million for FY 2005; and $170 million for FY 2006, which were later reduced to $85 million due to backlash from business leaders."
- Club for Growth's White Paper on Mitt Romney

"Romney continues to oppose the flat tax with harsh language, calling the tax 'unfair.'"
- Club for Growth's White Paper on Mitt Romney

Romney didn't support President Bush's tax cuts in 2003. That earned him praise from liberal Congressman Barney Frank (D-MA)
- Boston Globe, April 11, 2003.

From the Right:

"I said no to a tax hike; raising taxes hurts working people and scares away jobs. I also said no to more borrowing; borrowing just shifts our problems to the backs of our kids...Instead, I went after waste, inefficiency, duplication, and patronage."
- Governor Romney, Boston Globe, October 24, 2005

NO NEW TAXES PLEDGE

From the Left:

In 2002, Romney broke with his predecessor, Jane Swift, and Republican governors before her by declining to sign a written vow not to raise taxes once in office.

- Boston Globe, January 5, 2007 Read the article

From the Right:

Almost five years after he refused to sign a "no new taxes" pledge during his campaign for governor, Mitt Romney announced yesterday that he had done just that, as his campaign for the 2008 Republican presidential nomination began in earnest.
- Boston Globe, January 5, 2007 Read the article

CAMPAIGN FINANCE LAWS

From the Left:

Governor Romney has changed his position on key campaign finance reform issues several times during public life. During his 1994 Senate campaign, he held far left positions that advocated for abolishing PACs and creating strict campaign spending limits.

- Club for Growth's White Paper on Mitt Romney

From the Right:

As he runs for President, Romney abandoned his previous stance and has come out as a harsh critic of McCain-Feingold, and those presidential candidates who support it. His transformation has even propelled him to call for the legislation's repeal.
- Club for Growth's White Paper on Mitt Romney

ON HIS FAVORITE BOOK

From the Left:

He told Fox News his favorite book is L. Ron Hubbard's "Battlefield Earth"

From the Right:

He also told Fox news his favorite book is the The Bible

Or

Who Knows:

His MySpace page said his favorite book is "Huckleberry Finn"

Well, with Newt Gingrich, it was a "what goes around comes around" scenario. He divorced his first wife while she had cancer, in order to marry his younger second wife. He then cheated on her and married his younger mistress, who had been his assistant or something. A sleazy, hypocritical piece of work, for sure, since he was excoriating Bill Clinton for Monica at the time.


True. It's very hard to know where the candidates stand, since their positions change with the wind...and the polls. Politics in general seems to favor the candidate who can speak out of both sides of his/her mouth at the same time.

PK

Hi rlt. Do you think maybe the Lord is letting us have the leader WE want? Israel was not immune from doing their own thing. And God did remove His hand of protection from Israel at times too. Sometimes for a very long time as we humans measure time. But there are lot of people in the USA who say "we don't need no stinkin' God!"

Who IS Sovereign anyway?

In the interest of 'fairness', a view from the non-gay faction of conservatives(townhall.com)...

Heartpain - yep. And I used to believe in the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus too.

But then we grow up and begin to evaluate our prior presuppositions, especially when our own parents where playing the role of Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus, to say nothing of the proverbial "Stork" as to where babies come from.

I know what is "important to me" in my values and I look for a candidate who most closely seems to match those values without "imposing" a belief system on the nation as those who want to "kick God out of America" try to do. That's the "Congress shall pass NO laws restricting the free excercise OF religion" part of the "separation of church and state" argument that conveniently gets left out of most arguements against "establishing a STATE religion."

I don't see any of the candidates attempting to establish a State Religion, but I DO see great variations in their moral compasses, that make it seem as if they are in the "Bermuda Triangle" where a magnetic compass will not always point "north."

o.k. So it looks like our choice for President will be Billary vs. McCainadulerer. One forgave her husband and took him back after adultery (her motivation for doing so concerns me), the other dumped his invalid wife for his adulteress 1/2 his age.

What to do . . . What to do . . .

Really, this might be the first presidential election since the 1980s that I won't vote at all.

Not quite, but too close for my comfort:
Mike Huckabee stump speech, Warren Michigan, January 14, 2008.

Well, Mike is a Baptist preacher you know . . .

He also has no real chance of being elected president. He could be McCain's VP though. The've been playing nice lately with each other. If that were to happen and McCain dies in office . . . he is pretty old . . . then Mike would be free to seek transforming our republic to a theocracy.