Hello all, this is my first post here at marriage builders. I've read a lot of great stuff here over the years and now have an issue of my own that I'd like to run by everyone since it is hard to get enough opinions from actual couples as you can only talk to so many people...

I'm 37 (well, will be in a few days) and my wife is 38. We have two boys, 5 and 2, we've been married for 6 years and are devout Christians. I work and my wife is a stay at home mom. My 5 year old is in Kindergarten and the school is a 5 min walk from home. She walks him to school every morning (with the 2 year old).

Enough background...

I am not a neat freak, but I like things in order. Clutter and mess stresses me out big time. Not 'eat the dinner off the floor clean', but I just like thing to be 'in order'. My wife is not so much of a neat person and she will plainly admit this. She is not filthy or dirty or anything, but just not very neat.

Since I go to work and earn the income and she is a SAHM I expect to come home to at least a home that is in order. I do not mean it has to be in top shape, but just in order. We have young kids so of course there are going to be toys around and that's fine, but my point is it should take no longer than a few minutes of picking up toys and the house should look presentable to guests. It doesn't seem to work out this way however.

I would like to get a feel for what agreements other couples have as far as the division of labor is concerned with a working H and SAHM. I pay all the bills, I earn all the income (she has investments for retirement that she brought into the marriage), my agreed upon 'chore' is to clean the kitchen each night (dishes and all) along with typical H chores like taking out the trash, cleaning the cat box, mowing the grass, etc. I also do all of my own laundry. Her agreed upon chore is to keep the living room and office clean which basically means pick up the toys every night along with caring for the children during the day. I would say I do my chore the vast majority of the time. The only time I don't is when I get home late from studying or work (11pm-12am) or if we are fighting then I just say screw it (like tonight). She does hers most of the time, but this last week I can't say I've seen her do her chore at all. At least when I go to bed at night (which is always after her) her chore has certainly not been done.

But the big problem is that during the day when she is home she should be responsible for all of the chores at home until I get home since I am at work earning the money that allows her to be a SAHM. Basically I am responsible for my job 100% while I'm on the job and she is responsible for her job at home 100% while she is at home during the day and then we can divide the load when we are both home. She usually has dinner ready for the kids when I get home (I almost always prepare my own meals as well which we have agreed on) and I almost always put one child to bed. I expect to come home to an orderly home and I will clean the kitchen which would consist of dinner dishes and cleanup. Let's not even bring up the bathroom and toilets. She expects that along with pretty much everything else housework related to be 50/50 even though I'm at work 9 hours a day minimum while she is at home.

Having an orderly house is very important to me and my wife has never really been able to do this to my satisfaction. Considering the fact that I earn the income, pay all the bills, clean the kitchen every night, do my own laundry and she is a SAHM with one child gone for 7 hours of the day and the 2 year old asleep for at least 2 of those hours, does it seem unreasonable for me to expect to come home to a fairly clean house? The best way to define our home is CLUTTER. There are two small kitchen cabinet areas and the top of the microwave that when cleaned are like vacuums for junk. It seems that within hours of being cleaned they filled with clutter and none of it mine.

The biggest problem with my wife's inability to keep our home in order is that I feel disrespected. I work hard to be the sole bread winner of the family (as we agreed to and we both wanted), she knows how important having a clean home is to me, yet she seems incapable of doing it. She can do well for a week or two when stuff hits the fan and she can certainly make sure everything is clean if there is going to be a playgroup the next day, but it never lasts. She has even mentioned paying a maid to clean our house one a month. I'm sorry, but even if we can afford it, that seems ridiculous to me. SAHM, 2 kids, one gone for 7 hours of the day and you can't keep the house in order? What am I missing here? Help me out ladies. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Am I out of line for expecting to have an orderly home based on my circumstances? Does it seem that I do more or less or equal to the 'normal' H here? Although I do everything I've mentioned here my wife frequently calls me lazy for not doing enough. I admit I do have the lazy gene, especially on the weekends when I want to relax and she wants to work outside (which she has done a lot of), but how many other H's out there earn the income, pay the bills, clean the kitchen, do their own laundry, trade Saturday's to sleep in (forgot about that one), while their wife is a SAHW and can't keep the house in order? Friends of mine are shocked to hear my daily chore is cleaning the kitchen, I do my own laundry and let my wife sleep in every other Saturday while my wife is a SAHM. Fellas, am I in the majority or minority here?

Thanks and sorry for the novel. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Rhindle

Rhindle what does your W say about this situation? Does she think it's unreasonable to keep the house picked up? Was she like this before children? Is this just part of her personality?

Clutter drives me crazy. Doesn't seem to bother my H as much. Just a difference in priorities. Does she perhaps feel overwhelmed?

I know that when I allow clutter to pile up sometimes it looks like a mountain, and I just can't bring myself to try to climb. Or there is clutter here and there and everywhere and I have 10 declutter jobs going on at once. Could it be a matter of not knowing how to organize?

It's also VERY frustrating to clean, straighten, etc then you turn around (especially with small children) and it's a mess again before you've had time to notice it WAS straight a minute ago. I know I have a tendancy to think and act, why bother! Could that be her situation?

Why are you fixing your own dinner? Does your family not eat togther? My H and I have an unspoken agreement, if I cook, he cleans up or at the least helps. Both of us agreed, especially when are daughters were growing up if at all possible dinner was always together. It's a great way to connect after a day and relax together.

Have you considered doing the Emotional Needs Questionnaire here? That might open both you and your W's eyes as to what's important to the other. You've posted what's important to you, what's important to her?

Just my 2 cents.

I understand that since she works at home, she should be expected to do the lion's share of housework. I would expect that. So I commiserate. However, I see an awful lot of "I/me" statements in your post.
I like things in order.
I expect to come home...
since I am at work earning the money that allows her to stay at home
Having an orderly house is very important to me
I feel disrespected

Not to dismiss your feelings, and you're indeed contributing a lot, but the impression I get is that you expect the house to be run the way YOU want it to be run. What are your discussions like about it? If she doesn't clean the same way you would, what have you discussed about it, so that she can feel enabled to do it the way SHE feels capable of?

If there is clutter, and I were here, I'd be asking for you to provide some sort of organization help - bookcases, cubbies, cabinets, drawers, etc. - something that both of you can agree upon. And the kids are old enough to be learning how to put up one toy before they take out another; that is what kids learn in Montessori at age 1 1/2, and it works wonders. Simple fix. Might take a couple months before they get the hang of it, but gently guiding them to put one toy up in a cubbie before taking out another will do wonders. And then she can concentrate on other cleaning without feeling overwhelmed.

But on to the big elephant in the room. If I stayed at home, and got the attitude from you that you seem to have - do it my way or you're doing it wrong - I'd probably be trying pretty hard NOT to be keeping up with my 'chores' too. Just to point out to you that you are not my boss, just because you make money and I don't. Especially if you're going to be telling me how clean you expect OUR house to be.

I agree she should be stepping up, but it sounds more like a communication problem than a selfish/lazy problem. Find out what YOU do that irritates her; it might go a long way toward her being more willing to meet your needs.

Also, what time does she spend outside the house? Does she visit friends every week or two? Go to a gym? Get to play a sport? Spend any time at all with adults, like you get to do 5 days a week? It could just be a big resentment issue, but you'll never know unless you sit down and let her tell you how you feel - WITHOUT judging her.

Ditto what catperson said.

Being married to a man who wants a very clean home, I can tell you what works and what doesn't:

~ Criticism over the way I do housework causes me to put on the brakes. I go on strike.
~ Compliments reinforce my confidence, cause me to want to keep that area clean on a regular basis.
~ Scattershot demands don't work. "I want this living room and office clean tonight!" Nope, doesn't work.
~ Specific, doable requests worded as thoughtful requests do work -- though not always instantly. "Honey, would you mind cleaning off the desk today?" works. (It make take 2-3 days depending on the demands of her schedule.)
~ Providing a budget for household organization works. Encouraging your wife to be the decision-maker on what kind of storage she needs, then helping her get it works.
~ Honey-do lists do work **if** handled as thoughtful requests and don't exceed more than two requests per day. Again, make sure they are specific, doable (in her book) requests.
~ Making demands as if her boss creates a master/slave dynamic. That never works. Child-rearing alone balances out what you provide for her. Imagine paying a sitter $6/hr, 24/hrs per day, 7 days a week, and you get my drift <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.
~ Treating her as if she is the equal master of her domain (your home) does work. She needs to be 50/50 decision maker on all household purchases, including your furniture for your office, etc., so she has a vested interest in keeping things nice.
~ One tip for your wife: I organized my son's toys into plastic bins *with tight-closing lids* so that he could not pull out toys on his own. I organized the boxes by like toy-types. When he wants to play with toys, I pulled out one box he picked (it's very important that the bins be sheer so the child can pick out what they want well before they can read.) He could make a mess with the contents of that box, but it only took a few minutes to pick up the toys and put them away before guests arrive. At the age of six, he is physically-capable of opening the boxes now, but he is sticking to the one box at a time rule because otherwise there would be a consequence.

We had children very soon after marriage so she was immediately pregnant (with a difficult pregnancy) so it's hard to say if she was like this before children. But as I mentioned part of her personality is, well, not being very neat. It just doesn't come naturally to her. She can clean her desk and within a day or two is is stacked with papers, mail, you name it, a mile high.

She tends to think that if she cleans the kitchen during the day before I get home or if she practices what I preach which is 'clean as you go' then basically I'll have nothing to do when I get home. That is, if she puts the dirty dishes in the dishwasher instead of just throwing them in the sink the way she normally does then she'll be doing my chore. I think this is ridiculous to basically not take the extra 2-3 seconds to put a dish in the dishwasher just so I'll have something to do at night.


She has said she feels overwhelmed, but what I don't understand is how you can feel overwhelmed by just keeping things neat? She doesn't have to do a lot of things other SAHM's do like do my laundry, fix my dinner or pay the bills so it seems to me like she should be able to handle this.


She has the children's toys so organized that the primary reason I do the kitchen instead of pick up the toys is because of how she has the toys organized. It takes me more time to figure out where everything is supposed to go and frustrated me so I opted to do the kitchen instead since I know where things go there. She is not neat, but certainly knows how to organize... when she wants to.


That could be some of it, but a few toys on the floor doesn't bother me so much as that is expected. It's the areas of clutter that bother me more than anything. They've been cleaned and cleaned over and over, but like a vacuum junk fills the void almost immediately. Those small areas of counter space and the top of the microwave are too tempting not immediately populate with junk. None of it mine.


I'm eating 6 times a day and eating very specific foods in an effort to shed my winter coat... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> If there are dishes after dinner I don't mind cleaning up even though I don't normally eat the dinner she prepares. But if/when she puts the kids plates/cups up she regularly just throws them in the sink instead of the empty dishwasher which drives me crazy.


We are both aware of what are emotional needs are and what fills each other's tanks. Unfortunately neither one of us is doing what needs to be done. I know I'm not filling her tank as she is not filling mine, but I consider keeping the home in order part of her job and not part of filling my tank.

Thanks for the response!

This is the whole problem. She doesn't do the lion's share of the housework and I'm glad you agree that she should.


Yes, I am having some issues with how my wife does her job and this post is about me communicating those issues I'm having and my feelings about them to this forum.


All I want from her is what you already agreed earlier that she should be doing.



The discussions on this topic never go well because she feels like a failure and gets angry. She is the best possible mother for my children I could ever ask for and she works very hard to nurture and take care of them. I couldn't be happier with the job she does with the children. So when I tell her I get frustrated with all the clutter or mention anything about my disappointment with the condition of the house I think she gets angry because she puts so much effort into taking care of the children. This goes back to my point of being a SAHM with 2 children, 1 of them at school for for 7 hours a day... how can there not be time to straighten up?


Tell her this is a simple fix. She spends the vast majority of the day with them obviously and I know she and I both are teaching the kids how to put away their toys, but it has been a difficult battle. But as I've mentioned before the toys aren't the big problem. I have small children so I know there are going to be toys out. The problem I have is the cluttered areas that always exist no matter how many times they are cleaned (for playgroup for example it always gets cleaned). My wife is a master organizer. She certainly does not need help from me. She is a master organizer, but at the same time is messy. Her car, her desk, her sink in the bathroom, you name it, it's a mess.



She has already created cubbies, labeled bins and the whole bit.


Again, I'm only asking her to do what you have already agreed that she should be doing so I'm confused by your hostility. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The fact is I rarely bring this topic up because it is a button pusher. This may be part of the problem. She has no problem telling me almost immediately when I stray from the course and don't do something the way she wants it done. Men call this nagging, but she she often does it sandwiched between a couple of complements so I know she is trying. On the other hand I don't say anything.. then as the days go on and I see more and more clutter, I can't walk to the washing machine to do my own laundry without climbing over a bike or a stroller or whatever that I had just cleared.. I clean the dishes and kitchen after she's gone to bed to see a living room full of toys that she didn't even bother cleaning up (again, not the major issue, but I do expect this to be done each night as we agreed as I do the kitchen each night).. the half eaten bag of Cracker Jacks on the microwave that's there for days, change (instead of putting in the change jar), wrappers, cards, toys, you name it... it builds up and builds up until I'm angry and still haven't said anything because it is a sensitive issue. That's where we are right now. I've been angry all weekend and she doesn't even know why because I don't want to bring it up. I know I need to do better here, but I know as soon as it's brought up like always there will be a knock down drag out about it.


Yet again, I'm just asking to be done what you have already agreed she should be doing. I am not the boss of her and do not treat her in that manner. I'm not trying to tell her how to clean our house, I just want her to clean it as everyone so far here as agreed she should.


But she isn't.


She is crystal clear as far as my feelings on having an orderly home. It's been communicated to death. I feel this isn't about her meeting a need of mine, but rather it's doing her job. I know what I do that irritates her as we have had many discussions about these topics. But I do my job every day. I pay the bills. I earn the income. I'm doing my job as a provider. I'm just asking her to do her job as a SAHM as you have agreed she should be doing. If the situation were reversed and I wasn't doing my job as a provider I don't think she would try to find out what she does to annoy me, then stop doing it so I would be more willing to be a better provider. It's my job and considering how much I do I don't think it's asking too much to keep an orderly house.


I don't know why, but I'm feeling a lot of hostility from you... but that's ok as I do appreciate your passion and taking the time to respond to my post. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> She goes to the symphony every few weeks or so.. she has playgroups that she goes to. She is involved with the yearbook team at my son's school. She doesn't mention anything about having the need for adult companionship so I think this need is being met. She did early on (she moved her from another state), but my impression is this is not an issue.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond catperson! I do value your input as I'm honestly trying to work this out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's not how it's done, it's just not done at all. Since you ditto what catlover said then you agree that she should be doing the lion's share of the housework therefore I think you both agree that is part of her job as a SAHM. If my wife were to criticize my job, say I don't make enough money, hours are too long, too much travel, etc., should I go on strike? That probably wouldn't be good for anyone.



Agreed. When she does keep things clean I should make sure and let her know. Check.


Agreed. I may as well be talking to a wall if I were to talk to my wife like that... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I think she would find it irritating if I were to ask her to clean up the clutter in a certain area, but I may have to take that chance.


She is a master organizer as I've mentioned before. She certainly doesn't need my input and she already makes these decisions on her own.


Understood.



I never make demands as if I were her boss so there is no master/slave thing going on. We both are pretty equal as far as 'power' is concerned. So child rearing alone balances out what I provide for her? If this is the case are you saying I 'owe' her if I want her to keep the house clean?? What does this mean? I pay for all of her worldly needs and most of her wants. Food, clothing, shelter, car... this may sound harsh, but here goes... if I weren't paying for her needs and wants I'd be paying someone else. Correct?


No problem here.


She's organized the toys about as well as they could be organized. Now if she could just do that for the other areas of the house and keep them organized (clean) we'd be in good shape. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again for taking the time to respond! It's interesting hearing from other women that's for sure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound hostile. Just pointing out that your posts appear to be very exact as to what YOU are not getting, but not so as far as what SHE is not getting.

Which leads me back to communication. It really really sounds like the two of you are simply in a battle. And whether you see it or not, the sense most of us are getting is that you expect clean one way, she expects clean another way, and yet you are implying that HER way is wrong. Whether you say it out loud or not, she knows you are thinking it, believe me, which will do nothing for her feeling like she needs to please you in terms of doing it your way.

That is where the questionnaires come in. They help you sit down - together, as equals, not as the one who does things right and the one who needs to learn how to do things right - and determine what each of you needs to get out of your relationship. Because she obviously isn't getting from you what she needs to keep from feeling resentful. Just as you aren't. The questionnaires will help you work out - on an even field - what each of you should be committing to in your M. Just because she 'knows' what you want doesn't make her want to do it.

Of course, it may be something as simple as that she doesn't 'see' the clutter. My husband will leave a wrapper on the counter and walk away; I ask him to throw it away, within 5 seconds, and he says 'throw what away?' Or if I point to a spot chock full of his papers or trash and ask him to pick 'it' up, he'll honestly say 'pick what up?' He simply doesn't see it because it is not a stressor for him as it is for me; perhaps the clutter is just not on her radar; if that's the case, you can't make her see what needs to be done if she doesn't recognize it.

But I really wish you would consider what we've said, that you need to look into how you are interacting with her, and be willing to step back from your beliefs and listen to what she has to say.

No problem. I was probably just reading you wrong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I would say my posts are more about what she isn't doing rather than what I'm not getting. Since I'm looking at this in the context of job responsibilities I feel that I am doing my job as a provider, but she is not doing hers as a SAHM.



This 'battle' goes on whether we are getting along great or getting along poorly so I don't really see it as a battle. How can we be at battle if we are not fighting?



Hmmm... how can you say on one hand that you agree that she should do the lion's share of the house work, yet she doesn't do it and you say I'm wrong for implying that HER way (simply not doing it) is wrong? What if she implied that 'my way' of earning an income was wrong and I wasn't earning enough to pay the bills. That would mean I wasn't doing my job as a provider that we all agree I should do. Would you then defend me the way you are defending her? If you do respond to anything please respond to this question because I am fascinated by how the female mind operates. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



By my way you mean, doing it at all? I don't see how this can be defended over and over. You all have said she should do most of the housework, but she doesn't, yet you continually defend her for not doing it. What is the logical explanation for this contradiction?


We've done things like this in the past, but I agree, we should give it a shot.


I can't imagine this being the case as this topic has been brought up so many times there's no way she doesn't see it and she has never made that claim before.


I will certainly consider everything you all have kindly suggested. I'm just still surprised how everyone has jumped to her defense for not keeping the house clean, yet everyone agrees she should be doing it. It just doesn't make any sense to this male mind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Most the responses have been, "she should be doing it, BUT..." Why the 'but'? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again for taking the time to respond. I REALLY appreciate your input!

I'm sorry but that made me laugh! But...so you'll know, there are many ways to be at battle. Many are so subtle you may not be aware of them. Especially with women. For instance, my H refuses to do housework. I ask him point blank to pick just one chore; he refuses. So what is my recourse? I stop putting away his socks and underwear. I still wash them, just don't put them away. They pile up on his side of the bed, waiting. He asks what they're doing there; I say "I'm sorry, but I'm so busy doing all this housework and working full time, I just don't have enough hours in the day to get to everything. So I just assumed you'd want to help me by putting away your own socks." That is a battle. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

There's a book often recommended here called The Dance of Anger. In it you learn to understand your own anger, the signals it gives you. An example is a person who wants their partner to share in the housework; the other person does. But they don't do it good enough to please the first person; the first person gets angry at the second. But in the second person's mind, he is doing the work, but he is doing it HIS way. The problem is not with the second person doing it wrong, but with the first person wanting the second to do the work - but only on her terms. Anything else is not good enough. The moral is that if the first wants the second to do it, she has to be willing to let go of the method/results and let the second have control over it.

That said, I still agree she should be keeping her bargain. But I reiterate that she likely isn't simply because of the way the two of you communicate.

I mean this in the kindest way, and maybe it's just the way you write, but what you do write seems very...judgmental of her. Regardless of how much work she's doing. You seem to have in your mind a certain way for stuff to be done, and if not done that way, it's wrong. She probably observed long ago that no matter how she did it, it would not be up to your standards which, IMO, seem to be pretty high - and rigid. People who are judged become very closed in, un-giving, un-caring toward the person doing the judging. No matter what sex. Human nature.

Thus the battle you are in. If she felt equal to you, able to speak without fear of judgment, she might tell you exactly why she has given up her side of the bargain, perhaps as protest (my work will never be good enough; why should I bother?). But I would guess she does NOT feel safe to do so. Again, why I suggested you work on communication.

Here's likely a good example. Do you recall these discussions? Can you relate one to us, word for word? Exactly how does the topic get brought up? Who brings it up? How is it started? What is said? What is resolved?

I think you'll find the key to your problems in answering that.

Again, I respectfully submit that there is something going on in the way the two of you interact that has caused her to reach this decision - on her own - because she doesn't feel safe (free from judgment) to discuss it with you openly. She simply quit dealing with it, which she may feel is the only way to make her point. Again, please answer my question above, and relate a typical conversation, honestly.

keeping the home in order part of her job and not part of filling my tank.

IMO you are wrong on this. It is NOT her job this IS meeting 1 of your emotional needs. Maybe this is where you are having difficulty. You feel this is her JOB, she feels her JOB is raising her children. MAJOR difference.

Of course, it may be something as simple as that she doesn't 'see' the clutter. My husband will leave a wrapper on the counter and walk away; I ask him to throw it away, within 5 seconds, and he says 'throw what away?' Or if I point to a spot chock full of his papers or trash and ask him to pick 'it' up, he'll honestly say 'pick what up?' He simply doesn't see it because it is not a stressor for him as it is for me; perhaps the clutter is just not on her radar; if that's the case, you can't make her see what needs to be done if she doesn't recognize it.

Really think this over. EXACT same situation as my H and I, again back to what are priority differences.

But I really wish you would consider what we've said, that you need to look into how you are interacting with her, and be willing to step back from your beliefs and listen to what she has to say.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you've stated here, however you come across as a parent dealing with a child. IMO both of you NEED to learn better communication techniques. I don't think it's your W's JOB to do what you've requested, IMO working as a team to live and work together amiably will bring you both satisfaction.

Wow, he has it made! So what is my recourse after asking my wife over and over to please do a better job at keeping the home in order?


I see you dodged the question I specifically asked you to answer. I will not ask it again because unfortunately I can tell I am not going to get an answer. I guess I should not be surprised at how amazingly one sided your responses are. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


It just sounds to me like you are going to defend her to the end no matter what. I am not being judgmental of her I am only making observations. The observation is that when I get home the house is consistently not clean. You clearly will not give me any credit for earning all the income, paying the bills, doing my own laundry, and all I ask is to come home to a home that is in order. It is if this is asking too much.


Why is it all my fault? Wow. You haven't said one word in my defense. The one sidedness here is... well, I suppose I should have expected it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Can you recall any discussion you've ever had word for word? Since you will not answer the question I keep asking I will not try to attempt to answer this one. You said you agree she should be doing the lion's share of the house work since she is a SAHM, but she isn't doing it yet I am wrong for wanting her to.

This is a perfect example of how men and women are completely and totally different. Logic simply does not apply. :|

Frustrated.

So we have a SAHM with one child at school from 8am-3pm leaving a 2 year old to care for who is napping for at least 2 of those 7 hours... and she should not have the responsibility of keeping the house in order while I'm at the office? Are you serious?


I will take this into consideration, but it is nearly impossible for me to imagine after the number of conversations we've had on this topic that she just doesn't notice the clutter.

[/quote]

catlover said:

But I really wish you would consider what we've said, that you need to look into how you are interacting with her, and be willing to step back from your beliefs and listen to what she has to say.

You said:

I don't necessarily disagree with what you've stated here, however you come across as a parent dealing with a child. IMO both of you NEED to learn better communication techniques. I don't think it's your W's JOB to do what you've requested, IMO working as a team to live and work together amiably will bring you both satisfaction. [/quote]

We definitely need to learn better communication skills, but I just can't believe you are saying it's not my wife's job/responsibility to keep the home in order since she is there all day with one child at school for 7 hours with only the 2yr old home and he is napping for at least 2 of those hours. Then tell me then, WHO'S JOB IS IT?? MINE?? Am I to come home from working all day as the sole bread winner, make my own dinner, do my own laundry, pay the bills, take out the trash, do my chore of cleaning the kitchen THEN I SHOULD HELP HER WITH THE REST???

Are you seriously... serious?

Rhindle,
I'm just curious. What is it that you think your wife does all day?

I'm sorry, I really am not trying to give you a hard time; my advice is heartfelt. It's just that what I'm saying, I think, is an alien concept to how you operate, and I don't want to bang you over the head with what I'm trying to say. Let me try again.

You quit 'asking' her and sit down, face to face and tell her what you are feeling, ask her what she is feeling, and then determine - together - what's the best way to make sure the chores get done.

I did not say you are wrong, I said you need to rethink how you are approaching the problem. You are telling her that she is doing a bad job, that she is not doing enough, that she is not doing anything. Any time you TELL someone what they are or are not doing, be prepared for them to be upset with you. Does she tell you you wash dishes incorrectly? You play with your child incorrectly? You don't bring home enough money? Then why do you get to tell her that what she is doing is wrong? Because you earn money and she doesn't?

Like I keep saying, I agree she should be doing the housework, if that's what she agreed to. But like I ALSO keep saying, she is most likely NOT doing it because of your attitude toward her. Is that plain enough?

And again...I will ask you. HOW do you make that observation? Do you say, "honey, I don't understand something. It looks like you aren't able to get your chores done. Is there a problem you're having? Do we need to talk about how we divided everything up? Do you feel like something is wrong? Can we talk?"

Or do you say "W, I'm getting tired of coming home and not seeing any work done. Just what do you do with your time all day long, while I slave away earning the money that lets you goof off all day?"

That is why I asked you to try to remember exactly (or close to it) what you say when you keep bringing it up over and over and over (as you said you do). Are you doing it in a manner that says you respect whatever she will say, or are you doing it in a manner that says you're pretty disgusted with how she's not pulling her weight and she's getting a free ride? Again, I ask you to be honest; if you're not honest, we can't objectively determine how to help you get that clean house you want.

Well, then I guess I can't see what's really going on in your house, now can I? Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said you are wrong for wanting the house clean. I said that you probably are not getting the house clean because of the way you interact with your wife. Bottom line, she's probably pissed off at you for being so self-righteous. Sorry, but that's what I'm reading.

And why do you keep feeling attacked? Just because we're not throwing you a pity party? How effective is that in solving your problem and getting your house clean?

You say I'm not applying logic. But I am. I'm applying a woman's logic. Since you are dealing with a woman, you might want to consider USING a woman's logic to figure out how to deal - with a woman.

But that's your call. I hope you solve the problem before it's too late.

Thank you. I'm sure you are being heartfelt and honest and I appreciate it. I guess this dialog demonstrates that women and men truly do think totally differently because you sound just like my wife... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I'm going to take you at your word and try this. After all, you are a woman and so is my wife and you must think the same because you sure sound the same hehe.


Regularly.



Regularly.


I'm bound to do something right... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Of course not. She tells me what I'm doing wrong several orders of magnitude more often than I tell her. You may think it sounds like I'm the dominating figure in our marriage by the way I write, but I am not at all. We are very equal and one thing she complains about sometimes is me not being assertive enough. I try my best not to complain because I know she has a tough job, but then I let it build up by not saying anything and then it turns to anger and I 'go to the cave' which is where I am now.


I'm sure this is both of our problems. I don't do the things that please her because I don't like her attitude and vice versa. I can understand this.


I bottle it up until my attitude is clearly affected by it and I go to the cave (basically try to ignore/avoid/not talk to her). This is not a time to try to gently bring up the topic. When it has been brought up in the past I've tried to be as delicate as possible by starting out the conversation like, "I know this is a sensitive issue, but we need to talk about the housework". I think maybe the biggest problem is that we have never agreed on a true 'division of labor'. The pastor of our former church gave us a general rule to go by as far as the division of labor goes. He said that I do my job as a provider 100% of the time when I'm at work. My wife should take care of the home 100% when she is home and I am at work. He specifically, but generally (as I have here) mentioned that includes taking care of the children obviously, preparing dinner and keeping the house in order. This is really the basis of my whole argument. Then he said when we are both home we should evenly divide the duties 50-50. The problem is agreeing on exactly what is meant by 'keeping the house in order'. We've never really settled that. The best we've done is I clean the kitchen and she cleans the living room/office and that is at night when we are both home.


Now I'm not stupid! Of course that will never get anything productive accomplished.


I don't know. From a man's perspective things are generally pretty black and white. It's logical and makes sense (to a man). I try hard to be respectful, but when I see her face fall when she realizes I'm brining up the housework again she is immediately offended. We push each other's buttons SO easily... TOO easily. We cannot approach each other which constructive criticism without the fear of offending the other person.


I'm not sure what is self-righteous about asking your SAHM wife to clean up some of the house, but I see the path is getting negative here so I'll stop.


I'm guessing if you posted a complaint about your husband and a bunch of d00dz jumped in and defended your husband while hardly acknowledging your efforts I'm sure you'd have a similar feeling. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I understand and I try to think like a woman, but I don't know how you think so it is difficult. But I do try. On the other hand I see little or no effort here to think like a man which seems simple to me of course. Up/down. Black/white. Hot/cold. Eat/sleep. Very straightforward and predictable. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


We are in for the long haul. We have our problems, but we will not give up. My mother who is on her third marriage (which isn't going well) taught me something without saying a word... it's best to work out the problems with the one you're with NOW. Seems like even with second and third tries you just end up trading for a different set of problems.

Thank you catlover for taking the time to reply. I'm really going to try to take your advice. Once thing I've learned about women is to tell them they are right and everything seems to go so much smoother... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That is a great question! The problem is how do you find out for sure? I have asked her of course, but it's easy to name off this and that without breaking the time down. The thing is it takes only a few minutes of time a day to keep things cleaned up and that is my problem. When I end up staying home with the kids for whatever reason the house is always clean when she gets back because I 'clean as I go' and she does not. I'm not asking for cleaned toilets, mopped floors and vacuumed carpets every day. Should a have her create a spreadsheet and account for each and every minute of the day to 'prove' to me she is actually busy? That doesn't seem to be a good way to go either so there really isn't any way to actually know what goes on all day with only one child for 7 of those hours.

My wife is not the type to sit around and eat bon bons. I know she is busy with things, but I think her priorities are not exactly what I would like them to be. We need to sit down and hammer this out. Sooner rather than later...

Thanks for responding!

I don't believe you shared that before. It tells me that you are indeed in a battle. You both are feeling offended, ignored, and minimized.

NOW we have something to work on. Have you read the points here about Love Busters and Emotional Needs? Have you both sat down and enthusiastically (meaning no hard feelings) agreed on what you are both feeling and needing and wanting? Have you eliminated your LBs? Have you learned her ENs so you can make sure they're being met? Have you reached enthusiastic POJA on everything (I'd guess no on this one)?

It sounds like you could really benefit from a MC, simply so that you can both talk to each other in a neutral setting long enough to reach a consensus? You don't sound like you hate each other or anything, just that you have trouble relating to each other in a healthy way. MC is great for that.

We haven't read the things you mention here. You mentioned a lot of acronyms that I can't figure out by briefly glancing at them so it looks like I have some work to do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We have gone through the love languages, top needs, what fills each other's tank, etc. in the past. But just like everything else it falls to the wayside as we continue down the river of every day life and daily routines. We need to stop and make our own path. Thanks for all the suggestions from everyone here. I'm rather surprised at the amount of responses and the depth of them as well. I know it takes time out of your day to respond and I appreciate it!

Rhindle read articles here on communication. I'm glad you gave us a little insight into your W's actions with you as well. It sounds like tit for tat there...you complain, she complains. Not good for either of you and VERY frustrating too.

I think we all here are telling you the same thing, approaching the subject in the right way and be willing to listen and compromise if needed.

LB=love busters, EN=emotional needs, POJA, point of JOINT agreement, MC marriage counseling, M=marriage


It sounds like you could really benefit from a MC, simply so that you can both talk to each other in a neutral setting long enough to reach a consensus? You don't sound like you hate each other or anything, just that you have trouble relating to each other in a healthy way. MC is great for that.

This might be the ticket for BOTH of you.

Allowing resentment and frustration to build is a M destroyer. As much for you as her. Really consider MC.

And for what it's worth...I don't necessarily disagree with you; however it really sounds like the approach and what you feel is ignoring your needs require immediate attention. I wonder what your W would post in response? Does she feel resentment and frustration too, maybe feels like nothing she does is good enough? Just wondering.