Yes, I would love to talk to him and get all of this out in the open...his views and my views. But I don't think that is going to happen. I could push him...but then that would be all about me needing to talk about it. I am trying to respect what he wants.

Day to day, he seems to act as if it never happened. He doesn't hold it over my head or anything like that. He doesn't treat me different. And like I said, this last zinger was out of the blue...no longer a regular occurance.

He will not go to MC. He didn't like me going to IC either, but I was so depressed and really struggling so I went anyway. I had to or I was going to go off the deep end.

I just worry so much that he still carries all of this with him but doesn't show it. I'm scared that he feels as if he settled for me...had to settle for me. I try to focus on his actions which don't show any anger or hurt...but we've never really talked it out or worked through it together. My work has been mine and if he has worked through it, he has on his own and I don't know how or when. I really worry there is so much inside of him that I haven't a clue about.

I guess I can't let this go because I don't know if he has. For some reason, I need him to tell me he has if he has so that I can. Does that make sense?

I guess I can't let this go because I don't know if he has. For some reason, I need him to tell me he has if he has so that I can. Does that make sense?
******************************************

It makes sense to me but I don't know if it's the healthiest way for you to deal with it.
You are giving him an awful lot of power over how you feel about yourself.

I know it's not very healthy. I've always been very hard on myself. I've worked so hard not to be, but I just can not NOT be hard on myself about this.

Rubydoo,

I can offer you a guys point of view on this. Being a guy I prefer the "frontal assault" approach.

When he comes home tonight, you grab him by the collar, then you yank him around abit, slam him into a chair and Say "Listen Buster..." No??? Ok! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> How about a "kinder and gentler" frontal assault?

Tonight and I mean tonight, you tell him you need to talk to him, not "we need to talk".

You tell him the incident with the VC bra thing has really been bothering you. You explain again how badly you feel for what you did, BUT you also realized something else. The VC bra thing MUST have triggered memories for him because usually he is not the type of man to use "zingers" to make a point. You explain to him that if this brought back memories what you would really like for him to do, is for him to look you in the eye and if you alone tell you that a memory was triggered. If you are around other people have him say..."we need to talk later."

What you would like is a chance to let him voice his memory and concerns so that you can do your best to assure him of your love for him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You can imply whatever you will.

THe point, is that you acknowledge his apparent pain, you put this pain on the correct plane, his emotional pain rather his anger, and then you do your best to address it.

Finally, tell him you realize you caused this, you will face it and you WILL help him anyway you can, but you cannot do it if the information comes in the form of a "zinger". Further, those "zingers" harm him because they harm you and push you away meaning he does not get what he wants...a contrite, loving W. He needs to play to win and in your view a win is you happy making him happy.

Think about this and see how it sets with you. I think most of us guys often miss the linkage that comes with the old addage <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> He needs you to connect the dots for him and for him to hear that you HAVE connected the dots and understand the linkage between your actions in the past, his triggers, and his "zingers" toward you.

Just thoughts hope something helps.

God Bless,

JL

PS: You could put this another way. If you are crying you cannot see him and help him. He wants you to see him and help him so it is in his best interest not to "zing" you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

JL,

Thank you!

I can do that, but I know I won't be able to do it without crying! I'm crying just reading what you wrote. I'm such a mess right now!

And then again, I don't know if I should bring it up. He is so adament about not talking about it, me bringing it up. I am trying so hard to do what he wants to do. I don't want to make things worse.

On a day to day basis, everything seems fine. He doesn't act mad or hurt or like what happened is even on his mind. But obviously it is or he wouldn't have made that comment.

Okay, I'll say something.

Why am I so scared to say something!!!!!!!!!

Rubydoo,


Nope, Nada, no way, Nein, etc. CRYING. Don't do that.

Smile, be playful even, do grab his collar, pull him down and kiss him, and DON'T talk about IT, talk about you, him, and your desire for him to be happy, because when he is happy so are you, right?

Rubydoo, this is not cryin' stuff OK? THis is the good stuff. This is where you get to talk to your man and let him know you love him, and you want to protect and help him. THis is where you are letting him know, he is in your heart, your mind, AND your future.

You do all of this with actions and words. And the words are about help, comfort, love, and respect. He needs to know that these are your words and thoughts. And frankly, this works both ways. You need to be honest and open with him as well.

THe goal here is not to plow old ground. THe goal is to learn what can be learned from the past and apply it to the future. What have you learned about your H following all of this? Is he deeper than you thought? Does he have more emotions than you thought? What is it YOU have learned about him? You see my point, he needs to learn about you as well and he can do this if you address him and his triggers. This is NOT a rehash of the affair or the details, it is confronting what is hurting him and by definition you as well.

You need to be strong for him, not clingy or weepy at this point. Does this make sense? If you are crying he will have one of two reactions: feel sorry for you and push back his own feelings, or step back because he feels you are controlling him with your tears because you KNOW that they get to him. Neither of those responses will help your goals or your future with regard to this particular issue.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

Ruby:

I think it is schollbus who said that we "Say what we are thinking about"

A zinger?

A verbal volley to cause pain to the other person about something that they were thinking about.

Yes, time makes the triggers and the zingers get less in number.

Does my BS have the ability to throw a zinger? You bet. And about alot more things.

Does she now? Only when she percieves that I am not on the straight and narrow. If I seem to reveal some wayward types of thinking out loud, she nudges me back with a zinger.

But we do do as JL has proposed. She will let me know when something has triggered her.

And we discuss it, try to avoid the sitch, etc.

But your Husband has the WALL.

HE put it up. It seems everything is OK.

But there is ALWAYS the WALL.

You two are not REALLY sharing. I can tell you, if you were, you would never get a zinger, and or feel ashamed if something that did come up, came up. Something that created a trigger for your BS.

Your husband is marking time to me.

"Yep, I'll wait this out."

He's waiting until.....

I don't know. Maybe for the kids to get out of high school. Kids to get the braces paid for. For RD to do it again.

I don't know.

But things seem good, but "He doesn't want to talk about it" "Let it be in the past" "Why do YOU want to talk about it?" "Why do you need IC and We don't need MC"

These are the indicators of the WALL. The WALL between true intimacy between you and him.

Flamingo and I destoyed that wall after we discovered MB. And implemented MB Concepts into our M.

My opinion of course. Worth about the time it took you to read it...

And I may have expanded the discussion to far.

But the zingers? They won't stop until he talks to you....

LG

rubydoo,

I'm sorry for what you are going through. But there needs to come a point here, where your BH needs to come on board with respect to real recovery.



Your H is playing his self percieved trump card. He is playing the one upmanship game with you. By that I mean, he is determined to always be one up on you and thus control the M relationship from here on out.

This is not what true forgiveness looks like. He must drop this attitude in order to forgive you. He must release the debt that he feels you owe him. If you have truly repented and asked God for forgiveness, it was given to instantly. This is the grace and mercy of our Lord.

If God can forgive you, one must ask, is your H grater than God?

You are IMHO, going to have to be more proactive in ending this hurtful cycle. I know you hurt and feel guilt about what you did, but your H is going to have to be more understanding of that if he is ever going to be truly forgiving.

Sadly, this cycle will continue until you come out of your guilt and shame, and realize that you have already been forgiven by the one who counts the most! Let your H know that noone is greater than god, including him.

I wish you well,

All Blessings,
Jerry

First, I want to thank everyone for helping me and for just listening. And an extra thanks for the men who chimed in. Your points of view have helped me understand a little of what my H is thinking, how he processes what he is thinking, etc.

Second, I did just as JL suggested...and I was able to fight off the tears...for a few minutes anyway. I told my H I wanted to talk to him and then talked about how I had been thinking about Saturday night and I wondered if his comment back to me was because he had a trigger which caused him pain and he reacted to it. He said that sounds about right. I also told him that I knew he was hurt and I would love to comfort him and assure him how much I love him and that I am here to listen and/or answer questions...whatever he needs. But, a cheap shot thrown at me and then we go on as if nothing just happened does more than just hurt me, it pushes me away. He said he could see that happening.

So we ended up talking more than we EVER have about this. And so much came out. He told me he didn't realize that he has never actually told me that he has forgiven me...because he has forgiven me! He told me that he still thinks about it but not that often and not nearly as much as I obviously do. I also told him just how depressed I am and how I've been dancing around that so no one would notice. We talked about me possibly getting on AD's...which I have been very resistant to. Oh...and this is a big one to me...he said that if I need to talk to him about this then I should...which, for now anyway, makes me not need to talk about it.

AND...he told me he wasn't settling! That I am a great wife and a great mother. It's so sweet and so special for him to say that...but why am I having a hard time believing him. That little negative voice in my head says he's just saying that because he has to or just to make me feel better. I want to believe him so much...and it isn't fair of me not to. I am so down on myself, I don't believe the positives from others about myself. I've got to work on that more! Any book recommendations on that would be great!

So it ended up being a great talk...and I believe the most intimate talk we have ever had. Both of us are real good about shying away from emotional intimacy. The Wall like LG said. Me...because I worry sharing too much of the real me for fear of rejection, not being good enough, looking pathetic. Him...I'm not real sure. But we both took a big step! Yeah for us!

And I feel so much closer to him in a long time. It feels real good!


WOW!!! Replace "is your H" with "are you " and that is exactly what my IC said to me regarding me being unable to forgive myself. Which has been the biggest push for me to keep working at this...to find that forgiveness for myself.

So, thank you again so much to everyone. I know this isn't "over" and everything is going to be just great from now on...but we took a big step and I am so grateful for that!

Rugydoo,

You have only done HALF of the job here. You said
What is the other half??? Reinforcement!

You need to come up to him and tell him exactly what you just said in this quote and then thank him. You need to reinforce the idea that intimate and sometimes emotional discussions can be good and something that makes you feel closer to him.

Thank the man for listening to you and helping you and let him know that you want to help him.

You are finally learning to communicate with your H and he needs help in this department especially because you feel so much guilt. In fact given this statement I might as well launch into my time worn lecture on guilt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Are you ready???

Guilt is a feeling that is supposed to PREVENT you from doing something. It is a paralyzing emotion. Remorse feels a lot like guilt, but it is very different it is an emotion that should spur you into action to atone for something you have already done. Do you see the difference???

You feel guilt and it paralyzses you, so you have a hard time believing what your H says and acting when you know you should. What you need to move to is remorse. It allows and accepts that your H does love you, does need you, does want you, and makes you feel the need to make sure he knows his feelings for you are appreciated, that HE is appreciated, that he is loved, and that you will OVERCOME your walls to help him break down his.

Rubydoo, the greatest act of attonement you could do is to become a healthy, loving, laughing woman and wife. Nothing would bring more joy to your H than to come home and have a happy W who wants to be with him and love him. You have been sinking into depression, you have been beating yourself up, you have been reticent. All of these things are counter to what you should be doing to atone for what you have done.

I am not say "get over it" and paste a smile on your face. I am saying stop and realize that your H WANTS and NEEDS you in his life. If he did not he would be gone. So given his wants and needs which do you think he would prefer: a down, demure, woman with her eyes cast to the ground OR a woman that is smiling, happy to see him, and one that looks him in the eyes and loves him. UMMMM! let me see, which would I want? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I'm picking door number 2 it is me and I think so will your H.

Read your post again and remember the interaction. I recommended what I did because I knew that he must love you or he would be gone. I knew from years and years here, that YOU approaching him would be well received. I KNEW he is more focussed on his failures and insecurities than your failures.

You know these things now. Isn't it time to set the guilt down and move on to remorse? Remorse means actions and I think you have learned that actions coupled with consistent words have power.

So get to work on the second half of the job, and the proceed to teach him how to communicate on an emotional level and watch as he learns to be comfortable with you and talk with you. I think you will be amazed.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you again JL. I did like you said and thanked H again for talking with me. I told him I know it isn't easy but I so appreciate it. I also said that I want for us so much to be able to talk to each other, to be honest, and to help each other. He just said "Okay" but at least he heard me, right?


That is so funny that you mentioned this. Just a week ago I was thinking how wonderful life would be if I was happy again. I used to be a person who was happy...I laughed all the time. Now, I am so weighed down with my guilt that even when I am happy, I'm not really happy...if that makes sense. I am either not fully enjoying the total amount of happiness or I am just faking it. I wondered how beautiful I would be to my H if what he saw in me was someone who is truly happy. If he would rush home to see this happy woman just to share her joy.

The guilt is killing me. I feel like I can't be happy. I feel like I don't have the right to be truly happy...to be free of this guilt. I don't know how to explain that...but it is what I feel.