Mulan - thanks for the advice.


She does not resist POJA. She's fine with it.


Well, she isn't ever going to agree to that on the front end of things.


I'm perfectly willing to leave. Frankly, I was surprised my WW came home.

I just don't see how someone can say the concept of POJA and the concept of "whatever it takes for however long it takes" can coexist in a situation where both parties are mistrustful and withdrawn. Someone is going to have to put their neck out there first.

You have.

Agreed. I'll bet my WW feels she has too.

And, whether I like it or not, I am going to be asked to do it again.

For as long as you continue to hold up both ends of the rope, she has no incentive to pick up her end.

If she does decide to "put her neck out", she will only do so if she has a reason to. Could she ultimately decide that she doesn't want to, even if you remove the ways that you enable her not to? Sure.

But if that's the way it's going to be, then your choices are to continue to try to have a marriage with someone who doesn't mind letting you suffer as a result of her mistakes or to not have a marriage at all.

The only way to know what she will choose is to remove the ways you enable her and SEE what she chooses.



It doesn't sound to me like she is fine with POJA if she is willing to let you sacrifice, particularly in the area of protecting weaknesses after an A, much less multiple A's.



Setting protective boundaries is not something that is negotiable if a marriage is to be affair-proof. This is dangerous territory.

As is responding to a FWS as though the A never took place. These protective measures are important even in marriage where no infidelity has occurred. In a marriage where infidelity HAS occurred, it is crucial because this is an area of weakness that she has already shown she is vulnerable.

To ignore that and respond to a FWS as though an affair never took place is like treating a recovering alcoholic as though they never had a drinking problem (just so they don't feel punished for having that particular weakness).

A better question would be should a FWS *ACT* the same as someone who never had an affair? Or should she ACT different to ensure another affair does not take place? Would a truly FORMER wayward change her behavior to ensure that she is never vulnerable to another affair?

It really doesn't matter HOW you treat your wife, what matters is what steps SHE has taken to PROTECT you from another affair. What steps is she taking to ensure she is never vulnerable to another affair?

Traveling has to be a boundary issue, rprynne, that is non-negotiable. Anything that is HARMFUL to your marriage is not negotiable. If you have no such boundary, there is no point in even going forward because you know it will not work.

See, I am a recovering alcoholic [22 years] and while my H does not treat me as a falling down drunk, he is aware that I would be thoughtless and stupid to go hang out in bars. More importantly, since I am responsible for my own behavior and want to ensure that I never drink again, I would never be willing to place myself in vulnerable positions again.

However, if I hung out in bars, my H would not be interested in being with me, because he is not fond of drunken women. Just as you are not fond of cheating women. That is his boundary. And a boundary is not negotiable.

So, really the question should not ever be how you treat her, [FWS vs WS] but how she ACTS. It is her behavior that determines how you treat her. If she ACTS like a FWS, then you should treat her thusly. But it would be silly to treat her like she never had an affair. That would only leave you vulnerable again.

rprynne, there are some issues that should never be negotiated and I see you attempting to do that here. You are negotiating boundaries that should never be up for negotiation.

Be aware you do so at the expense of your marriage and your mental health.

For example, if you negotiate away a SOLID boundary such as never spending the night apart again,[the very thing that led to her past affair] then the result will be the same before. It would be insane to set yourself up for that again, UNLESS YOU ARE IN THE MOVIE GROUNDHOG DAY? Are you Bill Murray? Because if not, you might oughta avoid doing that same thing again, because the result will be no different.

If you know the inevitable result, then why in the world would you negotiate that? That makes no sense, unless you just ENJOY false recoveries.

Excellent post, Mel.

I especially like these parts:





I know from personal experience that mental health is sacrificed when I continue to try to MAKE something okay with me that isn't okay. The results are not pretty.





What is wrong with these men that they don't like that? How picky can they get? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Froz and Mel - Thanks for the advice and I understand what you're saying.

We meet with the MC on Wednesday, so we'll see what happens.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Please keep us updated.

What time? I think frozen and I should accompany you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Quite right, quite right. That might be best for all invloved. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I have considered starting a thread over in recovery, but I don't really know if we are there yet. I have had several intances where my "radar" went off regarding contact, but thus far all have them have been proven to be false alarms. WW has even been understanding of why my radar went off and in each case has taken steps to ease my concerns.

The first couple of sessions with the MC were more of discussion of his philosphy and assessment of our M. Today will be the first time we actually get into some work. The two major issues in his opinion seem to be working through the loss resulting from the still birth of our child, and working through the A. (as a side note, even though he is not a MB person, his first comment was if NC is not in place, then this will be a waste of time.)

I really don't know what to expect, so we'll see how it goes.

Last night, I once again told my WW that I was not to optimistic about the MC. I really hate these discussion, because it seems no matter what I do, I come off sounding weak. I don't plead or beg or anything like that. But I keep telling her that I don't want to bother with this if her goal is something other than trying to save our M. If it is just follow the MC's advice, and see how we feel, I don't think its going to work out. Which somehow seems to get turned around into I want her to promise not to leave the M. Anyway, she said her goal was to recover the M. But I still feel unsatisfied from the conversation. I think it frustrates her too.

I thought I would give an update, although I guess its a not so good one.

I've told my (F)WW I want a divorce. After a few weeks of MC, I just don't see any real change. I really believe the A is over, but for whatever reason, she just doesn't want to be married to me. Maybe the die was cast long ago, or there was something I could have done about that over the last 3 years, but I just don't see anyway around this.

She just says she wants to be friends, but doesn't want to be M'd. No amount of talking about it or actions or whatever seems to change that.

I just told her I don't see how I can be friends with her, but if she wants a divorce, I'm fine with that.

Sorry to hear that rprynne. Of course there were things that could have been done differently, but I think its doubtful that you could have done anything other than accelerate this outcome.

I hope everything turns out good for you, after all you've been through, you deserve some peace and happiness!