TT

What scared me back into reality was the fact that if I continued the same way I would carry this crap everywhere for the rest of my life. Whether I stayed with my W or not.

Not tryin to 2 x4 you but when I read your posts I just see you and your H also caught in this. The tri-angle does not build love in any way, shape, or form.

I had some help from a personal counselor to get me kick started. You may want to consider that. The only way to break out is to jump off the tri-angle.

Your H will try to keep you there ONLY because its all he knows. I am not trying to defend your H actions in the past. IMO It is simply the way you two relate to each other.

I know you are an intelligent and open-minded person so it is possible to make personal changes. These changes should you decide to make them can have a dramatic affect.

I am not gonna bug you anymore-Just posting cuz I really do care about you two <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Rocky

Hi TT,

Again, he fluffs you off for his poker game. I really don't know what to tell you anymore TT, this does not look like someone who cares about you in the least.

Please go on with your Plan B, the work you have done will get you to a better place, and he is just holding you back now. He wants and needs a mother, which I don't think you want to be anymore.

You do not want to fall for his temporary plan A again though, until he shows you that you are number 1 in his life I wouldn't go near him.

I feel for you TT, I know how much you are trying and the anguish you are going through. Know that you have friends here that support you and see what you have done to try to fix your marriage.

TT

I didn't see this b-4





IMO-You need to get away from your H just to let everything settle down.

Take some time for yourself. I wouldn't be surprised at how well you would feel after two to three weeks without being around him.

H has issues he needs to deal with-

You need to learn to RUN from those issues when he shows
them.


WOULD YOU ACCEPT THE BEHAVIOR YOUR H HAS SHOWN (all of it- from all your posts) YOU FROM SOMEONE OFF THE STREET??? A FRIEND????

I THINK NOT....


Rocky

No, I wouldn't Rocky. My guilt is beat into me. But I'm resentful of the fact that he constantly shoves my mistakes in my face and then does nothing but shine his own (very dirty) halo.

He makes me feel like I do deserve this. He tries to trip me up, make me make stumble in my plan... and then when I do, he uses it against me.

He's still being all weird about this latest incident. I just called him a bit for figuring out what was going on tonight and for a softball team that we play on together in the summer... and he was very short with me and answered everything I asked him with "I don't care". He's really dragging this out.

I just want him to stop dragging this out and being a miserable, self-entitled f**k head. I understand I need to change my behavior. He's so damn stubborn though... once he's angry, that is ALL that matters. He doesn't care how much he hurts anyone else... he's angry. And right now that is how he's acting. And if I walk away... I honestly don't know if he could get over his own pride enough to actually come back to me... His ego is his most important possession. He can't ever apologize or extend an olive branch-- ever. Never has been able to.

And I'm sure once he 'decides' to get over this-- he will never apologize for all the agony he's caused me this week. In his mind, I deserved this too. And in his mind, I'll be "lucky" that he got over it-- not that I deserve an apology for it, I'm "lucky"

Yeah, real "lucky".

This is how he treated me for two years prior to my A. He's just a LARGER sense of self-entitlement about doing it now. Before it was that he was working so hard to support our family, and he made more money than me... that was his excuse for treating me so poorly. That I should be appreciative of the fact that he cared more about his job than me.

Rough day. Really rough day. I was thinking of going out for some drinks with a friend tonight. Opinions??

I know as a FWS, that is NOT a good idea. But as a W of someone behaving like he is currently... I should just walk away from him and make him think I'm moving on with my life. This is where I struggle. Do I do the "FWS" thing-- stay home, don't go out with a friend and some of her friends for some drinks tonight-- or do I do the 180 thing and just say, well if you are going to be a pr*ck tonight-- I'm going out, see ya later?

If I go out, he's going to be livid, I'll tell you that much....

Vote?? Go out, stay in? If he continues to act this way, do I just pick up my purse and do my own thing for tonight?
TT

I'm starting my plan B letter. Will post here probably sometime tomorrow. Please stay tuned and help me with my letter, I really need it. I really, really appreciated all the help on the NC letter and really think that collectively we modified it to make it a strong letter.

TT

Good 4 you. Hope to see it tomorrow.

TT-You know I just can't leave this alone-This has bugged me for quite some time.

Your H has had 3-EA's in the past. I know from my own past drinking experiences if I was EAing I was definately trying to PA. Especially when alcohol was involved.

Just my hunch and because I was such a stray dog when I drank-but I don't think you got any where near the truth about the past A's. The guilt may be eating him up and that contributes to the rise in AO's and Dj's.

Not trying to defend H. A rise in the inappropriate behavior has to come from somewhere.

God knows you have tried to work on the M



Rocky

I will post more later; but TT, Plan B is for someone who has confirmed an active affair and has worked a solid Plan A for weeks/months.

Plan B is not appropriate here.

What I recommend for you is:

1. call the Harleys for an appointment

2. set some healthy boundaries (the Harley's can help you with that)

3. snoop if you suspect an affair

Here is a quote from Dr. H's question/answer article on this site about Plan A and B:

I recommend two plans. If the first plan (plan A) is unsuccessful in separating the wayward spouse from the lover, the second plan (plan B) is followed until the affair is ended. This sequence -- plan A followed by plan B -- represents the most sensible approach to handling a wayward spouse's inability to decide between the lover and the betrayed spouse.


TT, a Plan B letter in your circumstances would be completely inappropriate.

TT & Nesre,

Have you read Surviving an Affair and have you read the articles here on this site?


If not, I suggest you slow down and read, read, read, until you fully understand the principles of Dr. Harley's approach.

SMB





Yes

SAA/HNHN/LB's

I can't answer for TT.

Her main thread is on the second page.

It may help to look at the first few posts-and replies from some of the best this board has to offer-concerning this situation.

Rocky

I too have read SAA/HNHN, and have read extensively on this site.

I have tossed around the idea of calling the Harley's a few times. Truthfully, the $$ aspect is what has stopped me.

I think plan B has been suggested in this case because is is draining me daily and deliberately ruining efforts of mine. I understand maybe he doesn't trust me, (well I know he doesn't), and that he is sitting around "waiting" to see my response, etc etc... that I've really changed, etc. And I can handle him being "neutral" about things, ie, not putting in effort, but not deliberately punishing me and trying to find reasons to destroy my efforts. I feel very manipulated at this point. And I think that many others (Rocky, TMTS, Julie... to name a few... Mel has chimed in a few times on my thread too...) have recognized his actions as abusive at best.

He is fence sitting on working on the marriage also. This hasn't been for a month or so. This has been going on FOR SEVEN MONTHS. Admittedly, I didn't find this site until November... didn't start reading here until then. Didn't really start working the plan until then. I started plan A.... and am now working on a combo of plan A (when he's behaving) and a 180 when he's having a hissy fit.

And he doesn't apologize or acknowledge-- ever-- his actions. He just blows up, berates me for days, throws things in my face, rejects me, and then a few days later, for reasons unbeknowst to me, its over and he just acts like nothing happened. It is the most draining thing I have ever gone through in my life. He used to do similar things pre-A.

I think plan B in my case is to get him to "wake up" and realize that INTENTIONALLY destroying efforts and behaving this way is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

And SMB-- I do think that I will pony up the money for at least one counseling session (personally, H refuses to be involved and makes fun of me for posting here, actually) with the Harleys before I do go plan B. I don't have money right now (especially if I may be leaving this situation) for multiple sessions...

At this point, I'm just at the end of my rope. And every time I think things are improving, well, they aren't. This is just one of many examples of this. He is consistently rude and uncaring and inconsiderate towards me-- and the worst part is that he says he's ENTITLED to be this way. He does it "intentionally" to punish me.

I'm really trying to work a good 180 and set boundaries and really enforce those-- when he decides to "act up". I'm not perfect, but he REALLY tries to break me. He knows what buttons to push, we've known each other for 12 years now!

I just don't know how much more I CAN TAKE... and quite frankly I have so little left in my LB right now. I am really starting to resent him and his attitude towards this marriage. He consistently tells me "we don't have a marriage" and that "we aren't really married".

The point is... in order to even SEE if we CAN recover from this, um, the vengefulness on his part HAS TO STOP. He has to learn to "control" his own emotions... something he can't really do right now and has had trouble with in the past. How are we supposed to even determine IF we can recover from this with him behaving like this??

I could understand if this had been a month... but I've been plan A now for a solid four months... and he's done nothing but abuse me. And blame everything on me. And re-write history, and refuse to accept

Rocky-- I know I probably don't know the truth about his EAs. That is something I have to live with. I don't know how I'd ever find out the truth at this point. These people live out of state, and work for different companies (H is an auditor-- he was auditing these companies for a month or so at some points). They happen to have very plain names. And he claims they all left their companies and he doesn't know where they are. Very shady. The only thing I could think of to do is ask some of his good friends from his old job... but I don't know if I want to open that can of worms (ie, start digging and piss people off)... or if his friends would even tell the truth.

He also frequently went to out of town "training sessions" which were essentially giant drunk-fests where everyone would get plastered and he would tell me stories of how people would cheat on their spouses at these things. Sigh. Of course, he denies anything with him.

But then again, he denied his 3rd (and worst) EA when I first discovered it too... continued to lie to me for days and make up things that didn't make sense until I DUG AND FOUND OUT ON MY OWN... so that should say something about whether or not he'd tell the truth about these anyways.

And I realize that he may be "angry" at himself because at this point-- if he did have a PA at some point and lied about it.. or never told me... well at this point, um, he's kind "worse" than me. And that is the only thing giving him power right now-- that I'm "worse" than him. Because I ponied up and told him ON MY OWN... he didn't even suspect anything. I just told him. And because I am making efforts to fix my mistake, not hide from it. Yes, Rocky, all of this has crossed my mind.

I just don't know if I should even open the can of worms of the past. It may just make things worse. Half of me wants to know the truth, half of me just wants to leave this whole disaster of the past 2 years behind and just start over fresh...

TT

Thanks, Nesre, I did read several pages of her thread before I posted. Some early on and some later. I also went back this morning, per your prompting, and read the 1st 3 pages.

And what I have seen from "some of the best this board has to offer" on her thread is to walk away. She does not want that, and I don't blame her. A marriage was designed to be a lifetime commitment.

BUT, if she really wants this to work, there is A LOT SHE needs to do.


TT,

I don't find your husband's behavior all that unusual for a BS who went through what you put him through. Your repeated contact and fog behavior and words are very damaging, I think more than you realize or are willing to live up to.

Gotta help my kids with school, be right back.

I have not contacted OM myself in close to 9 months now. Before I found this site, I told him to leave me alone, etc. I hadn't heard from him in over 4 months-- hence not seeing the need to send a NC letter (I had offered to H, he had said not to bother...)-- because I thought NC was established. This was my opportunity to send the letter. I have no idea why after 4 months he decided to email me.

I understand this is a rollercoaster. But I also understand that he's 50% responsible for the state of the marriage-- now and before. And that he is 100% responsible for his 3 EAs. As I am 100% responsible for mine. And I know that my repeated fog talk was damaging-- and stupid. Some of it I can't believe I said at this point anymore. But please don't suggest I'm even REMOTELY still in a fog... nowhere even close. I just have a [censored] of an OM (well, aren't they all!) that doesn't know what NO CONTACT really means...

I know there's a lot I need to do, and god knows I've been trying. And I know that I've been largely ignored by the "best of the board" up until this point.

I know you are the BS in this case, SMB-- and I guess because of that I really respect your opinion too. I'd like to know what your ACTIONS towards your husband were after he came home to work on things. I know that that doubt is always there. But what were your ACTIONS? I think actions speak louder than words. And my H's actions aren't so promising.... he really, really behaves like a WS anymore. If he is having an A... its pretty far underground though. Although, I can't check his work email and stuff, so if it is at work, I'd have a hard time finding out.

I am open and willing to learn-- and want suggestions. Please don't give up on me too SMB!! Too many people just read and give up on me. This sitch is difficult-- but I'm not giving up yet. And I'm willing to try anything.

But keep in mind, I've also been betrayed too. And he told me he "probably" would have slept with EA #3 if she lived closer (she lives across the country), but that he doesn't know for sure. He only saw her for one weekend and the only physical things that happened were a foot rub and a hug (according to both of them). And I've been told that I "deserved" that. And that it was "my fault" (all three, even his 2 that were before mine...). He doesn't accept responsibility for them... and certainly isn't working towards recovery towards them. Not defending my actions, just trying to let you see my perspective.

TT

OK-- so I've been thinking about this while at work SMB. I thought maybe I'd try to clarify myself a bit here. I'd really like to know your input on this though... I've had very few veteran people "from the other side of the tracks" jump in on my threads, so I'm glad I've gotten your attention <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (well, hopefully!)

So, I guess the way I see things is that I made a HUGE, MONUMENTAL, DISASTROUS mistake. It was stupid, and makes me sick to think about. I know that sounds cliche, but its true. I've spent A LOT of time doing some introspection to figure out what "environmental" conditions contributed to the A (both in the marriage and out of it... both my own issues and outside factors). I really have. I can lay some of them out, if you'd like, but I feel like my fingers are going to fall off from all the typing already today, so I'll let that one go for now unless you are further interested <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Anyways-- I know that my choice to have the A was just that-- my choice. And that all the "reasons" in the world are NEVER enough. And that I was dumb and weak. Stupid. Really, really stupid. And I wish I could take it back, know then what I know now... but life doesn't work that way, unfortunately <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

What do I expect with this recovery (if you can call this recovery??)? I know there's gonna be ups and downs. Really low downs. That he's gonna lose it and explode sometimes. That he may do things out of emotional pain that are blatantly against MB principles, etc (which, btw, he's not on board with...). I am willing to accept this. I am willing to support him through these times. I created this problem. It is MY JOB to try to fix it. And I can't expect him to be perfect all the time. There's going to be backsliding.


What I am NOT WILLING to accept... and I do not think that just because I had an A that I "have" to accept... is his attitude that he can "behave however he wants" right now. And however he wants is very selfish and personally damaging to me. Yeah, I behaved that way. But does that give him a "right" to behave that way?? Absolutely NOT. He doesn't want me to leave, but doesn't want to commit or do anything to help our situation-- in fact, he pretty much just does a lot to make it WORSE. Now, I said I don't expect him to be perfect. And when the backsliding and the upset-ness and hurt feelings surface... I know he feels that he can't share them with me, can't trust me with them. That's fine (well, its not, but I understand, I guess). But because he FEELS that way, does that give him a RIGHT to behave however he wants?!?!?

No. If life worked that way... wow, we'd be screwed as a world. If everytime someone got angry or upset with someone, they could treat that person however they felt.. and then later on act like it didn't happen?!? That is what I won't accept. I won't accept HIS ATTITUDE of "because of the past, I can now treat you like [censored] and that is totally acceptable". There's SHOULD still be a BARE MINIMUM level of RESPECT he should treat me with. Or else, really, he's no better than I was, now is he? And he doesn't EVER acknowledge that what he's doing now makes things WORSE. He just tells me I deserve it (word for word, literally-- I deserve to be treated like [censored] and that I deserve to be treated with disrespect...)

And I don't want to beat a dead horse... but I've been betrayed here too. THREE TIMES. And he has a history of doing the EXACT SAME THING he did to me... to his ex that he dated for 5 years before me. This is a PATTERN for him. Things aren't the way he wants them, instead of "fixing" it he goes out and finds someone else to fufill this in him. I realize this is hypocritical of me (I did the same thing), but once IS NOT a pattern. He did this 2x to his ex... and 3x to me. I'd say that's a pattern.

He also-- in Novemeber-- called up some girl that he was friends with in the past, took her out to lunch and then proceeded to trade flirty emails with her for days. In fact, so much so, it made HER uncomfortable... she told a friend of HIS... and HIS FRIEND called me and told me about it. About her being uncomfortable with the tone of his emails (telling her that "any guy would be so lucky to be able to date her").

This was JUST THIS PAST NOVEMBER. This is the crap I'm not taking. Just because I had an affair DOES NOT entitle him to do this [censored]-- throw all morals out the window and behave however he'd like. Unless he wants to divorce, then by all means he can behave however he'd like.

This is my approach to this. He's in the camp of "punishing" me right now (and there's actually an article ON THIS SITE about that exact thing-- using the affair as a "punishment" to keep control... and I really, really believe at this point that is what he's doing. If he commits, well he's relinquishing control. He doesn't want that.

I'm at the end of my rope with this attitude of his. I can understand being hurt, upset. Going of the deep end at some point. But he's blaming ALL of his CURRENT actions on me... to validate his crappy behavior right now. He's using it as an excuse to be a sh!thead to me. He's being as DESTRUCTIVE as he possibly can. And playing head games with me and occasionally being nice when he sees that I'm nearing the end of my rope, so I don't leave.

Sorry, just trying to explain more where I'm coming from.

You either want to recover the marriage... or you don't. You pick a path, and you do it. I can see taking some time to think... but SEVEN MONTHS?!? Of torture? This is just RIDICULOUS and him taking advantage of the situation at this point, and my guilt.

Just my 2 cents. I am really curious what your ACTIONS towards your H were after he came back though SMB. I really am-- seriously.

TT

TT

SMB


TT
He's being as DESTRUCTIVE as he possibly can.

TT


This is the part (I UNDERSTAND BECAUSE I've BEEN THERE) but i think this board does not understand.

TT-You are a good person no doubt in my mind.

You would not take this kind of behavior from a stranger on the street but you feel " you deserve it" from your H?????

Personal opinion..............

Your H is a time bomb waiting to go off and a lot of us are worried you will be physically hurt........

You keep on takin it from your H......WHY??????????

As thoughtful of a request I can make of you.....

Please seek out a personal counselor to help sort all this out. I don't think this is the place to do it. (H's Alcohol use? AO/DJ/VA __? Your Bounderies? Limits?)

I know I am in no way qualified or educated enough to help you from where I sit.

I know this is not what you want to hear.

TT
This may be the kindest and most loving thing you could do for yourself that may have a tremendous impact on your M in the future.........

THINK ABOUT IT.

Rocky

TT,

I have a few questions that may help me understand your situation better. From what I've read, it sounds like you marriage had a lot of issues from the start. Is that correct?

What was your H like before the A? (verbally abusive? physically abusive? drinking?)

What was your marriage like before the A?

I think you said hour H was "into" recovery months ago, but you were pretty foggy and so did not do what was needed. Is that correct? If so, what was your husband like during that time?


TT, I see a few different scenarios in your situation and really am not sure which one to lean toward:

1. Your husband is in an active affair right now and is spewing fog babble to you because he does not want to end his affair. He may even consider this affair an exit affair from the marriage.

2. Your husband is terribly hurt and angry over your infidelity and has put up walls to protect himself emotionally. His "taker" rarely, if ever, lets his "giver" out. His emotions burst out every so often, and he gave the ILUBNILWY speech because he truly isn't sure he can get past the pain and anger.

3. When your husband was wanting to recover, but you were still in the wayward mindset (I'm pretty sure you said there was a time he wanted to recover but you did nothing), he gradually lost his love for you. (Dr. H warns that can happen, especially when Plan Aing...hence, the need for Plan B).

4. Your husband is so angry and resentful from the betrayal that his taker stays in control, and he looks for ways to hurt you back or get revenge. He uses the affair to manipulate and control you.

5. Your husband's actions now are pretty close to what they were like before the affair.

6. Your husband is a serial cheater and has no desire to change his ways.

I really have no idea which of the above scenarios fits your picture, or if there is some other one that I didn't think of.

If you can answer the few questions I posted, it will lead me to more questions; and eventually, I may get a better feel for your situation.

BTW, your husband has no more right to treat you the way he is than you had disrepecting and betraying him.

I see a lot of justification in your posts, and that concerns me.

TT,

You asked about my actions, and that is hard for me to answer. Our recovery was based on my FWS's actions. I had past the point of being willing/able to pull any weight in recovery. I had been Plan Aing for months, he left me twice, and put up with horrid wayward babble and behavior, and I was totally done unless he met EVERY requirement I had to come home. And he did.

When FWS came home he was willing to do anything and everything to recover our marriage. And he completed everything I required and more. (It was not an easy list).

So what did I do?

I was open and honest, when FWS proved it was safe to be.

I tried not to love bust, but still did a few times. FWS took it because he understood that my anger was overwhelming me at times.

I agreed to counsel with the Harley's (VERY helpful!)

We both did everything we were asked to do in counseling.

I was willing and did meet his ENs. Harder for me though, was allowing him to meet mine.

But you see, FWS had immediately put into place NC with a NC letter, a long list of extraordinary precautions, and just compensation (as Dr. H refers to). It was BECAUSE of those initial actions that FWS took, that made it possible for me to embrace reconciliation and recovery.

So, are you familiar with Dr. H's extraordinary precautions and just compensation? These are critical steps a FWS MUST take to begin establishing trust, care and protection in the marriage.

If you do not understand what these are, please tell me; and I can help explain them.

Hi SMB--

Sorry, I took a break from the board for the weekend. We had a good weekend. Friday night I met him at a local casino where we had dinner and had fun playing craps (and losing $60-- but it took us 1.5 hours to lose it, and we had fun, so it was worth it!). Saturday we went to a hockey game then out to dinner for a family birthday. Sunday we just spent some time just the two of us (went to feed the geese some bread, took the dog out), and then I watched the neighbor's five year old daughter for awhile and we made cookies together for H.

H actually apologized to me on Sunday... out of the blue!... for what he did to me on Wednesday (with the poker game and my dinner). We were sitting there eating dinner I had made (I had made us a nice dinner) and he said "I'm sorry about Wednesday" out of the blue... I was totally confused and just looked at him dumbfounded. I thought he meant something about this coming Wednesday... was trying to think what was going on. Then he explained he meant this past Wednesday. I just said thank you, and then we continued talking.

OK, so to answer some questions SMB-- I think that his response in at this point is a combo of your points 2 thru 5. My gut really tells me that there isn't an ongoing affair right now, and I haven't found any evidence of this. It would have to be one at work at this point, and even that would have to be pretty far underground, as I've been to plenty of work functions with him and haven't noticed anything fishy recently. I DO think that there may have been more in the past than he lets on though (with his previous job) because he refuses to talk about a lot of it and gets VERY defensive VERY quickly if you bring it up. My gut tells me there's stuff I don't know in the past (with his first 2 EAs)... but I'm not sure how to get at that, or if it is worth it.

A lot of this "hissy fit" stuff and inconsideracy that he writes off WAS present before the A. Not this bad, admittedly, but a lot of it was. He AOs pretty bad a lot, then later on acts like nothing happened. Before the A, he was distant, wasn't home much, and was sort of obsessed with his job. He woudln't bother to call much when he was out of town, if I called he woudln't answer, and if he did he acted annoyed. He thought it was "totally ridiculous" that I expected at least one phone call a day while he was out of town. He said "I didn't understand how busy he was". I said, no one said you have to talk for an hour, but a five minute phone call if you are busy to say "hi, how was your day" and to make sure I'm still ALIVE would be nice. But he just insisted he didn't have time for that. (um, right. I find that hard to believe. I just asked for a phone call, no particular time or anything, whatever worked for him, BEFORE 11 pm... because that is when I went to bed).

He loses it and gets angry easy. Stone walls when he's angry. Leaves the house and won't come back home, won't answer his phone (did this before, does it now). Then, poof, all the sudden it's over for him, and he just acts like normal. Never acknowledges what happened, and if you bring it up, he just gets angry again and the cycle repeats. This happens no matter who "screwed up" (ie, I could get angry or upset with him for something totally legitimate, and even if I bring it up in a totally non-confrontational way, just to express how it hurt me or whatever, this will STILL happen. He will find a way to blame it on me, then get mad at me, and then storm out of the house, and stonewall. Act like nothing happened later. VERY, VERY frustrating).

He is and was a liar also. I've caught him lying about big things (his third EA was one big lie that he told me, found out the truth from her), and little stupid things (where he got a tie from). I'd say the lying has gotten better-- but I just recently caught him lying again. Makes it hard to trust him when you have to question just about everything he tells you. He's also the king of just "leaving things out" that are important that he doesn't want to tell you.

Yes, this marriage had a ton of issues from the start. My main ones are the lying and his inability to deal with anger and upset feeling in a HEALTHY manner.

Yes, he really wanted to recover months ago (9 months ago??). At that point he was trying hard to meet my needs and was very attentive to me. I STILL caught him lying to me several times though, not just about his A-- other stupid little and big things too. He would AO frequently, but would actually APOLOGIZE for them and acknowledge them later. Accept responsibility for his own actions. I guess even through my fog, I understood why AOs were to be expected. And the fact that he at least ACKNOWLEDGED his behavior later was enough of a step forward for me. I guess the major thing he improved on was actually making me feel like I MATTERED. I never felt like he even CARED about me at all when he was at the other job. I just felt like I was a pain in the [censored] that he kept around as a trophy and that was about it.

I'd say there were instances of verbal abuse on both sides of our relationship pre-A. That is something I've worked extra hard to cut out on my side. And I'm proud to say, I have really worked hard on controlling my actions and emotions so that I don't react on emotions, but rationally. We were both loose cannons pre-A. His stone walling me would make me go off the deep end (and is STILL a trigger for me... the rejection really hurts me), but I've gotten better at dealing with it. Don't even remember the last time I had an AO. I try to stay off the soap box, but occasionally I do put a foot up there... (workin' on it..).

He was never really home, so other than that, I don't know what to say about our marriage. He said he drank a lot out of town because he wasn't happy being out of town so much either. I wouldn't know. He wasn't home, and I didn't really talk to him much. If I did, he was pretty cold and annoyed with me.

After I pretty much had checked out of the marriage emotionally, and the EA had started with OM, I think H realized that his job was destroying the M. He then changed jobs to a different company (same job) that allowed him to NOT travel. He still works a lot of hours, but now is actually HOME at night now. He started his new job July 06.

Anyways, so far so good after this weekend. Even though he hasn't said anything about the letter, I think my sending it really sent a message to him that I'm serious (hopefully).

I can handle the AOs. I expect them. But I also expect him to accept responsibility for his own actions-- past and present-- and to stop blaming them all on me. If I am accepting responsibility for my actions, he has to too. He has a laundry list of reasons why every thing he's doing and had done to me in the past is "OK" or justified. He's even justified the way he treated me in the past and his 2 EAs while he was out of town. He justifies the way he acts now because "I did this or that to him in the past, so he's entitled to do this now". THAT is the attitude I can't handle. In order for this not to be destroyed, he HAS to take responsibility for his own actions and stop blaming the way he acts now on me, and the way he acted in the past on me. THAT is what needs to change. And I think if that attitude changed then it would open a lot of doors for recovery for us.

I think slowly that attitude is changing for him. Or at least I think it is. I think I see glimpses of it changing (ie, him apologizing this weekend for what he did on Wednesday), but we still do quite a bit of backsliding too.

I wish he would see a counselor with me. But he refuses. Our last counselor we were seeing in October-ish was an idiot. Now he thinks they are all idiots.


Sorry for the novel....

TT

Oh, and one thing I forgot above-- with the just compensation and extraordinary precautions...

I have offered to H to move out of the area with him, so that a lot of the "triggers" would be left behind. I am currently working on obtaining my PhD (already have my masters and a teaching minor). If I left now, I would be giving that PhD up, and would have to start all over again in another city if we moved (I probably wouldn't start over with it, actually. I am 4 years in, and certainly don't want to start over).

This is important to H because he has wanted to move for a long time-- we were planning on leaving as soon as I was done here with my PhD anyways. He hates the city we live in now. Plus, his family lives 3K miles from here, and he's relatively close with them, so that would be nice. My family lives here, and while I'm not that close with them, I would still miss them.

This counts as just compensation, I would think. I've put this on the table MULTIPLE times. The only thing that sucks is the housing market SUCKS where we live right now and we'd probably take a big hit on our house selling it now....

Extraordinary precautions means that I take precautions to never ever see or talk to OM again, right? Well, that was part of what this letter business was about. And I was serious about the RO part of it. So much as an email with one single alphabet letter typed in it, and I will go to the courthouse. OM no longer works with me, so that is fixed. I have no reason to see him whatsoever. We used to play a sport together on the weekends, but I have told H that I am giving that up (obviously). I work in a secure access building and made sure that my boss inactivated his card once he left here so that he cannot get back into the building. I am as transparent as I can be. H has all the passwords to all of my accounts (hence how he saw the email from OM the other day...). I've repeatedly told him if he's ever suspicious about where I am, to call me and tell me to send him a picture text of something of his choosing right then and there (ie, if I say I'm at the grocery store, then send him a picture of the produce isle), to prove that I"m there. I tell him everywhere I am and ENCOURAGE him to check up on me.

Is there anything else I should be doing?

TT