How long is long enough for me to wait for my husband to clean up the mess he made with a co-worker? We've been married 17 years and this past year he "helped" a woman he works with out of a tough emotional situation. She came at him "guns blazin" once she figured out how "compassionate' he is. Yes, I know...he was open to it!
But, now it's a full year later and he has talked to her several times about his committment to our marriage and our kids but she just won't go away. I realize it is because he's not quite being forceful in his conversations. Now, her mother passed away and he thinks I'm being mean for not thinking it's appropriate for him to go to the funeral. After all....she is a co-worker. What is the point? How many other co-workers are there to see to it that you and your wife are unhappy? This entire situation is soooo out of character for him and I do honestly believe he's going through some mid-life crisis (age 42). But, how long do I wait while he sorts things out? If his mouth is saying "I love you and want to be with you" but his laziness about seeing to it that she moves along are vastly different, how long do I wait? What is expected of me when it's never gone to a physical point but the heart is involved? It's so lonely.

I'm sorry you are feeling lonely. I don't think anyone can tell you how long you should give your husband. That is really your call. How did your husband "help" his coworker? Is she actively trying to break up your marriage? Or are you feeling competitive with her because your husband is sympathetic to her problems? I don't think it is unusual to attend the funeral of a co-worker's mother if you and the co-worker are friends. Are other people from work going as well?

Thanks for responding..
Yes, she is very actively trying to destroy my marriage. She was told by her husband that he was no longer "in love" with her and moved very far away. My husband was her boss at the time so she came to him for advise and a bit of time off. I started to notice him talking of this person I did not know so I began asking questions. Feeling sorry for her desperate situation I invited her to dinner. The very minute she walked into my home I knew that she had alterior motives. She made it very clear to me that there was more to what she intended other than simple friendship. Suffice it to say..things got out of control. He became very invested in her and started to shower me with info such as "she understands me more than you do", "I can easily talk to her about my job but you don't try to understand it", "perhaps she's the one I'm supposed to be with". So many hurtful things were said and I'm surprised I'm still functioning. But, over many months, he has pulled back and attempted to re-align his life and re-committ to me. He saw our church Deacon and we've gone a few times to counseling. But, this woman is relentless. To the point where he's had to report her twice to supervisors about her personal calls over the weekends that are not work related. Don't get me wrong, he obviously did not do enough to stop what was going on and seemed to thrive with the extra attention. So, given this info, I think it's totally inappropriate for him to go to the funeral. Not only does it deeply hurt me, it sends mixed messeges to both his bosses and her.
D

Sounds like your husband needs to look for another job. Seems that your husband is putting more effort in accomodating this coworker's needs than yours (his wife). Your husband is partially to blame because he is allowing it happen. He could notify their HR that this coworker is harassing him and HR could place disciplinary action or her. However, if HR feels that he was also involved - he could also be disciplined. I totally understand that emotional pain hurts much more than physical pain. Is the relationship(Yours and your husband) not interesting / fun anymore? Maybe the two of you should have a "date" every month. Time for just the two of you to reconnect.

Well I can certainly see why this is so upsetting to you. Do you know why your husband feels he has to go to this funeral? Even though it sounds like he shouldn't go to me, it wouldn't be productive for you to forbid him not to go or to guilt him into not going. Perhaps you could gently suggest he discuss this with his church deacon? It seems that if he had to report the woman to HR for overstepping her bounds, it would be a good idea for him to remain uber-professional with her from here on out. This is certainly an awkward situation for him. It's not always easy to go find another job, especially if he is the main breadwinner. It is also hard because he has to see the woman at work every day so I am sure he is trying to keep her from going nutso on him. This is why one should really be wary of fishing off the ol' company pier! If you think he is trying hard to fix your marriage, try and be patient with him.

I have to say, I'm shocked by your kindness. I initially went on another discussion forum to get the opinion of some impartial people and was ripped to shreads. I was called everything from an enabler to basically dumb. They made it very clear to me that he was a lying cheat and there was no coming back and that if the relationship was only emotional and not physical, I needed to wake up! So, a new perspective is refreshing.
Yes, he is the main breadwinner. He is at a level of employment (VP) that is not easily duplicated when tuition, helathcare and a mortgage are concerned. He is looking. He cannot properly articulate to me the "WHY" for going to the funeral other than feeling it was the "right" thing to do. I'm being as patient as I can but it seems wrong to hurt me so that another destructive force can feel better. She knows what she's done and so does he. Why continue the mess? My children are frightened. My 12 yr. old asked what he should do if he saw her sitting in her car at the end of our street. This woman has repeatedly called and has even gone as far as ambushing my mother in law on a late evening to try to turn her to her side. My mother in law had never met her and was shocked that she had the nerve to show up at all. My husband was annoyed, but obviously not angry. This angered me, as it was a total infringement on our lives. Our counselor was shocked by this part of the story. But, my husband feels responsible for "hurting her" by having to explain to her that he loves me and will not destroy our marriage. Ego is a funny thing...she obviously padded his quite nicely.
So, now it's a day by day thing. I do love him but am running out on hope. He did not go to the funeral, but made me "pay" by being totally a bear towards me. I'm trying to brush it off but I'm a little too excitable to do so properly. He's trying to move on by sweeping under the carpet and I've basically ripped the carpet out of the room so that everything is exposed. Somewhere there should be a middle ground.

Thanks fiori <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But I am just here to be your sounding board. I'm no expert by any means, but I would say you can disregard anyone who would presume to know what's truly going on in your relationship based on a couple of posts. Do they have ESP or a crystal ball? LOL! Yeah, I didn't think so.

I'm glad to hear your husband didn't go to the funeral. He is probably grumpy because he feels guilty about not going and in my experience men do not deal with guilt very well. My husband had a similar situation a long time ago. The girl in his situation had a major self esteem problem. She didn't think she had anything to offer other than her looks so as a result she was always getting used by guys and not treated well. My husband is such a kind soul, he felt bad for her and thought that if she had a supportive friend (which of course he took on as his role in her life), she'd start to stand up for herself and make better choices. Well, turns out it's not so easy to "fix" other people...LOL! Does that sound at all like your husband? At the time it was a major drama in our relationship (we weren't married then). Over time, I think when she realized that I was here to stay, she drifted out of his life and I never hear anything about her anymore.

Keep calm. Remember your husband has chosen you and wants to keep your family together. You're the rightful padder of his ego <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I believe he is grumpy for two reasons. The first is the fact that although he agrees that he has to be more firm with OW about his involvement with us and not her, he felt that it was cruel to enforce it by not attending her funeral. Let's face it, if not for the proclamation of love and devotion from her, they could actually be friends. But, that was tainted. She was really down on her luck this time last year. Her husband told her he was in love with someone else and high tailed it out of town. She was divorced, legally changed her name back to maiden name & "in love" with my husband within 6 weeks. Seems like a rebound to me. He feels like he's only added to her misery because he feels as if he's broken her heart. Seriously, though, her heart never ever got a chance to heal from the husband heartache. Mine is a super kind guy who took it upon himself to nurture her though her pain. She totally capitalized on that. But, he should have handled it differently knowing that there was so much at stake. He really did not know there was such a thing as an EA. Once I began doing some reading and he did too, he became more enlightened. My pain stems from the lack of action taken once he was enlightened. I know that he was probably loving the attention. So, let me do that. Give me a chance before you sell the farm! I only wish this woman would realize I was here to stay and drift out of his life. She originally said she was going to do that but then never followed through. My husband let her off the hook by telling her he did not think there was any reason to do something hasty. But, her position is a much easier one to find elsewhere while his is not. We'll see. But, if you told me a year ago that this was still going to be like it is, I would not have believed you. I thoght he was stronger than this and I thought he loved me more than this. I really feel discarded. I know he's here, but I want his heart too. I want to feel special again...I want to feel cherished. I used to almost gloat as to how I knew that I'd never lose him to another woman. Maybe he'd be a workaholic, but never women. We were always "that" couple and it saddens me that we've gotten wouned in this way. I find it very selfish on both their parts that they could let this happen to a beautiful family. Again...I wait. If I did not think he was worth it, I'd let him go. But, he says he does not want to go...this I have to believe.

Well if it is any consolation it was probably about 3 years before the girl in my situation stopped contacting my husband, so take heart even though it has been a year. Like you, I would have preferred that he just kick her out of his life and say never talk to me again. I really couldn't understand why he wouldn't as it seemed so obvious to me that was the solution. But looking back on it now, I realize that it's not his character to just drop someone in need like that even if it would make his life easier and quite frankly that is something I love about him ... it is really wonderful to be married to a man who can be unselfish and caring, so it would be foolish of me to wish for him to be different even though in that case my feelings ended up being hurt. I think if we had been better communicators it wouldn't have been so painful to me. He really didn't explain well to me what was going on and I was threatened by her which is not how I am used to feeling AT ALL so that was scary to me and probably kept me from being able to listen too well.

Please don't make this mean that your husband doesn't love you enough. That your husband has called HR on this woman and distanced himself is evidence that he does love you. Why do you feel like you don't have his heart anymore? Do you have any ideas about how you could get it back?

I am quite sure I cannot wait three years. This, I know would kill me. I'm only hoping the lack of his presence at the funeral cements his insistance that he's not interested in her romantically and she needs to pull up stakes and re-establish the support system she had in place long before she met him. I realize there is hope considering he has distanced himself, but I don't always understand why it cannot be immediate. I liken it to a cancerous growth. I would not ask the surgeon to leave a little behind for memories and take my chances it won't festor again into active cancer. I see this "friendship" as a cancer that needs to be completely removed without looking back. He is a sweet guy, but I'm not sure how long I can take him putting her feelings before mine. I'm his wife....this has to come into play sooner or later, doesn't it? I have invested almost 1/2 my life into "us" and it's been a pleasure...one that I would readily repeat. But, it's time for him to understand he's hurting me and there is no room for any more disappointment. I want to move forward..

I hope you don't have to wait that long too! In the overall scheme of things though, a year or two isn't very long compared to the many years of happy marriage you've had and could continue to have in the future. Don't give up!!

What's happening to make you feel that your husband doesn't understand how this has hurt you? Are you two talking about it? I thought your cancer analogy was really good ... have you shared that with him yet?

Yes, we talk and talk and talk. And, often I write things down and bring them up while he's getting his clothes ready for the next day. He likes to re-iron some shirts occassionally if they've been in the closet too long, so he's learned to hate ironing! We will often laugh about it. I'll ask him if he's going to iron and then he knows I must have a paper hidden with some questions on it. But, he's good about it and always answers them. Most of the time I correct him so I'm working on that. I have come to realize how much in control I've been and I really don't want to be his mom...just his companion. I've been yelled at recently for referring to him as my best friend. I was told that with friends like this who needs enemies....you kow the drill. Anyway, am I wrong to stick this out? Is this really a reason to bail? It does not seem so to me, but I don't want to be made a fool of. I'm wondering what I would expect if the shoes were reversed...
Anyway, I know I still love him but the days are long and hard. Each night I'm sure this will be the night she attempts to call/contact again. I can only hope he has the strength of character to stay committed here. Truely, if I did not love this man or if I really thought she was the love of his life, I'd let him go. But, 16 years has shown me how well we are --except we're terrible fighters. We've never quite mastered that!
As far as his understanding, how could he? He can think he knows how I feel but sadly he cannot get into my head. I wish there was a button I could push at the end of the day and he could see the transcripts of what went on in my mind. The good, the bad and the ugly! Maybe then he'd get it. I think he thinks he understands, but really how could he? He does get the cancer thing...but I'm a bevy of analogies and I'm thinking he's sick of them now and then..but he tolerates them.
You know, I don't know anything about you, but I do know that your kind words are very reassuring and I anticipate your wisdom. Thanks for that.

I hope the days will get better for you soon. I know it must be so hard on you having this on your mind, but you've just got to be strong and shake off your fear. When you start to worry that this woman is going to contact your husband again, try not to be scared of it ... if it happens, think of it as an opportunity for your husband to reinforce to her that she should beat it because he's taken ... an opportunity to regain your trust a little more and show again that he chooses you. I know this is probably easier said than done, but all you have to lose is that pit you've been feeling in your stomach, right?

I don't think you are wrong to stick this out. I would trust what you feel your heart is telling you to do. I don't say this to everyone because some people do have a history of making poor decisions, but from what you've shared so far, I don't think you fall into that category.

It sounds like your marriage has been a good one for the most part so I don't see your current problem as a reason to bail. Again, I would feel differently if the circumstances were different, like if your husband had done this to you many times over the years or if the two of you had other serious problems like abuse. But this one thing alone wouldn't be enough for me. We're supposed to stick by our spouses through good and bad. If this is the first really bad thing that has happened in 16-17 years, what would it mean if you did bail?

Maybe the person who yelled at you for referring to your husband as your best friend was jealous?! Just because your husband let you down, doesn't mean he's not your best friend or even that he is a bad friend. I know I've occasionally let a good friend down. Never on purpose, but sometimes things happen to create situations I didn't foresee and I, not being perfect, screw up. I wish I could undo those mistakes. Am I a bad friend? I don't think so. I try my best, but sometimes I fail that's all. If you think your husband is trying, that's what counts.

Anyway, about me ... I've been married for 3 1/2 years. We don't have any kids yet, but we have a great dog. Overall I think my marriage is good, but there are some things that could be improved. I came to the Marriage Builders website because my husband and I are terrible at fighting too and I want to learn how to resolve our differences without fighting. So that's how I ended up checking this board.

For someone who has only been married you seem to have an awful lot of wisdom! It's been refreshing getting your point of view. I did not think it seemed reasonalble to abandon ship after this one time of grief. I keep thinking that if he was sick (which to me he seems), I would never consider leaving him in the dust. This was a circumstance that came into our lives out of his selfishness and ego. I never saw this one coming -- he'd never be the type you'd think would stray. But, no sex and no dates outside of work. I cling to this as my salvation. I've been told, though, that one type of "cheating" is synonymous with all "cheating". I do feel completely betrayed by him. And, I'm mad at her for being so selfish too. It's time for me now...he's either in or out! At this point things look to be going forward, but I feel like I just wait. I know she will come again. But, I can only hope & pray he does not disappoint. Love is really hard. I've always told him that I thought being married was a full time job and that statement always insulted him. Now, he understands. If you get too comfortable it's easy to simply ignore certain aspects of your relationship. Once children enter the scenario it's even more complicated, but in a good way.
As for the bad fighting...we never quite have gotten a handle on that. I'm now working on harnessing my anger and fear from this past year so that I dont' bring it up over and over again for the rest of our lives. I have a tendancy of doing that. It will be the hardest thing for me....one he does not think I can achieve. I'll admit, if we argue about anything -- even as mundane as paint choices -- I always assume it's because her choice would be better! I really need to get this out of my head! Do you read books about it? I know there are seminars and self help programs but I find that kind of stuff hard to swallow.

You have every right to be mad. That woman crossed the line ... she went WAAAAY over the line in fact! Married men are off limits. Period. When I was single, I respected that and it does make me mad when I see women who don't. I saw it first hand a couple times at the company I used to work at and it was hurtful to everyone involved, very messy and they all looked very unprofessional to the rest of the company. These were full blown physical affairs.

I do respect your husband for not crossing that line. Personally I don't think that an emotional affair is the same as a physical affair. A lot of times our emotions happen without us fully understanding where they came from, like when I get mad or even if I like or don't like someone. So even though I can control my emotions, there is a certain extent to which it is kind of involuntary and which feelings might even sneak up on you. To me that's quite different from a physical affair. You can definitely control your physical body so to me it is much more on purpose. It doesn't sound like your husband ever considered leaving you for this woman. Am I right in feeling that?

I must say that I feel I am learning from you too. You are so right that marriage is a full time job! And like you I don't see my husband as the kind of person who would cheat. The other day he wrote a protest letter to a radio station because they were advertising a website for married people to find people to have affairs with ... LOL! He was like, "what is this country coming to?!" I do worry that when we have kids, we will get too busy to stay connected and stay best friends. That is kind of a block I am having now. My eggs aren't getting any younger, but part of me is scared of the whole thing.

Do you and your husband argue about home decorating choices too? Her choices aren't better, your husband just has bad taste <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> It is unfortunate, but my husband and I have almost opposite tastes. So far we are averaging being able to agree enough to buy one piece of furniture a year. I am not kidding!

You know, I haven't read very many books about fighting. I did think the articles on this website were good and they have been helping me see how counterproductive arguing is and how I can try different tactics. And when I have time, I listen to the radio show podcast. The other day Dr. Harley said some good things about how important it was to control your anger and not let it lash out at your partner that really made sense to me. He used to be a yeller and now he never loses his temper. He just resolved to not let himself get into that state anymore. So it gives me hope and I'm trying to do the same.

I understand being wary about seminars and self help programs. I'm sure there are good ones out there, but it seems like there are a lot of mediocre ones too just out to make a buck. It's kind of like personal coaching. I'm sure there are good ones, but most of the ones I've met were just not that successful or satisfied at their old careers.

Well, I hope today has been a good one for you, and your family!

This is what people say when they are STILL in the emotional affair. You need to proceed as though you are still in the middle of it, no matter what he says. In fact, if she still hasn't gotten the clue to stay away, I really really hope you will at least consider that he may not be telling you the truth, and is actually still (or was) having a physical affair. My pastor's sermon this week was about adultery, and she read statistics that said up to 65% of all men in America are having/have had PAs. And in the 6 months I've been here, I've seen a dozen women just like you, who swear their husband isn't having an affair, impossible, he says so, etc. - only to come back later and say OMG you were all right! He's just a great liar and I was completely fooled - because I wanted to believe him.

I recommend that you do some snooping, if nothing else, just to clear the air. Check his cell phone call record, his texting record, and install a keylogger on your computer. MB actually condones doing this. Even if it's just an EA, and the EA is over, you need to do this for the marriage's sake.

He felt stroked by her because some need or needs weren't being met at home. Have you read the stuff here about learning what Love Busters you are doing to him, and what Emotional Needs of his you are not meeting? I know that you are the wronged person here, but the way MB works is that, when you sense a problem, since you are the only person here (meaning your H is not here learning), you have to be the one to start the steps to fix your marriage, so that he will not be tempted again to fall into this trap. We can help with this, if you're interested.

Finally, if this were my situation, I would talk to her myself. MB wants you to expose the affair; if it never really went further than liking each other, a simple talk with you and her may be enough to put her off. If there is more to it than what he says, you will need to expose the affair to family, friends, and work. One of them will have to change jobs.

Please don't sweep it under the rug. You have the right to snoop, and I really hope you will do so, as well as look into the LBs and ENs and their questionnaires.

I have done all you suggested. The way I found out most of the details was by doing a little detective work. He's either dumb or really thinking he was doing nothing wrong. And, I have spoken to her. Once in person in the very beginning and twice leaving messeges on the phone with my husband right by my side. I believe he did not handle the situation as well as he should have. I know it's because he truely liked her. But, she has done alot of things that have demonstrated to him that she's a bit "off", including ambushing his mother on a late evening. She, to my knowledge, is a die-hard and feel entitled to his "friendship". The reason she did not get a clue to stay away is because he was not effective in the way he spoke to her. I can only hope he's worked this out, but I cannot put the words into his mouth and make him speak. He seems committed to us. As for the needs not being met, yes, I agree with this. But, neither were mine and I did not stray outside our marriage. This I have a low tolerance for and I believe it's cowardly. But, he says he tried to talk to me many times but I seemed unapproachable. I believe this to be true and am working towards a better outcome. And, as for exposure, this has occurred. His mother has been a tremendous ally to me, as I initially went to her for help since she's really the only person who knows him other than me. He's a very private man with very little friends other than the husband's of my girlfriends and fathers's of our children's friends. I will be going to his job at least once per month for lunch so she sees we are a united front.
I firmly do not believe he was having a physical affair. This I cling to for sanity. By the way...I do check cell phone, no texting allowed on work issued phone, and his computer is work issued and I have no access to it. But, any emails that come to work I can see on his blackberry and trust me, I look!

Hi fiori,
Have you considered posting on general questions part of the Infidelity forum? I know the word "indidelity' sounds huge. But your H seems to have been involved in an EA. You say you and he have read about EAs, so you are probably quite informed. I was fortunate in that as soon as my FWH read about EAs, he realized what he had done and wrote the No contact letter.

It does sound like since your H continues to have contact with the OW, he continues to be addicted to the relationship. It is important for a variety of reasons, that no contact is achieved. The very fact that he wanted to attend the funeral and blames himself for some of her problems indicates that he is still in the fog of the EA at least to some extent.

It is normal for you to have "triggers" related to his activities with her. It is a concern that he is not looking out for your well being in this situation.

How is he attempting to establish no contact with her? Is he still her supervisor? If so, can he approach the management to arrange a transfer for her? He really needs to establish no contact in some manner. Is he attempting to do this?

My H was also one that I never would have dreamed would have kept secrets from me regarding an OW. I would never have thought he would have started secret communications with an OW. At the time he did it, he just got hooked on the excitement of remembering old times and it did boost his ego. The more contact he had with her (by e-mail and phone), the deeper he became involved in it, and it became impossible for him to stop, or tell me about it. She was an old high school girlfriend that he had not had contact with since he dumped her in high school.

Hope things are going ok for you, but it will be difficult for the two of you to re-build the M while he still has contact.

Thanks. But the contact on his part has stopped. And, he did ask that she be transferred to another dept. and that was done as of October 1, 2007. Since October we have been on the path to recovery, although it seems bumpy sometimes. He has issued a total committment to me and I can only hope he's being honest. I do believe, most of the time, that he is. My husband also had many communications with email and cell phone. This too, was a tremendous boost to his 42yr. old ego! Funny, if he had come to me I think I would have been open minded enough to make a few changes. Now, it's all changed. We've made more time to simply "be". We spend time doing nothing together and it's helped. I'd appreciate it a little more if he did not fall asleep when we watch tv, but he's there.
WE are in the re-building stage. And, he is looking for another job. I only wish she would have done the right thing by moving on, as she initially stated she would do when he explained his position to her and that things got a bit out of control and in no way should she interpret his kindness as a promise for a future. So, we work towards breaking the chain that binds us. I realize I, too, have got to try harder to trust...something that seems unrealistic right this minute. Are you still married? I'm struggling with the codes at the end of some postings. I've figured out OW, H & W...but the others confuse me. Is there a guide somewhere? Sorry to seem dumb, but this is new to me!

Hi fiori! Just checking in to see how you are doing today. Did you see my post from yesterday? I don't want to make assumptions about your situation. It seems to me that you two are doing the right things to recover. It almost sounds like when your husband realized this woman at work wanted to be more than friends that he put the brakes on. Do you mind sharing what happened to make him want to end it? Did he ever have romantic feelings for this woman? Or was he just enjoying the friendship?

If you go to the Emotional Needs section of the forums, there is a post that lists the common abbreviations. I think it is the second one down. Not a dumb question at all! When I first came here, I assumed "BS" was what people usually mean when they say "BS" (bull poop) and I was confused why people would call themselves that ... LOL!

Hey, thanks...I did see your post but I've been nursing sick kiddies and husband for the last two weeks!
Yesterday was a good day. My husband stayed home from work and we managed to get alot done at home. Simple stuff...nothing heavy. And, the best part was that something controversial came up regarding a hot topic between us and the "potential" argument was avoided and we had a very productive conversation. And, I didn't even go back to every problem we have being about her. I realize this, other than forgiveness, will be my greatest challenge.
As for my situation, I believe it stopped because I hit the wall emotionally and he finally saw what it was doing to me. He really did not beleive, originally, there was such a thing as an EA and that it could make me feel so betrayed. Then, on top of it all, she started doing a few desperate things like ambushing his mom late one night and a little light bulb went off. I call it his "Oprah moment". We had a really long talk one night and I basically told him that he needed to make a choice. His friendship with her was toxic to our marriage. If he was a guy and was causing the same mess, I would ask that this friendship be stopped too. You have to realize when so much damage is being done and weigh out the good/bad. We talked alllllll night in October and laid out the possibilities. It was with me or without...no other options. He began imagining life without me and the kids on a daily basis and it was the dealbreaker. I really think he simply got "caught up" in this thing with OW and it really got a hold of him good. Was it romantic? Not in the basic sense, but I would be lying if I told you he was not attrated to her -- he was. But he says it was not in a physical sense...he had some type of "connection". His word - not mine! The part I still struggle with some days is that I think if she was just a girl who did not profess her undying love and devotion for him, he'd still enjoy being a comfortable work friend. I could have accepted this, but it got tainted and very quickly. Her husband left her and within six weeks she was divorced, changed her name back to maiden name and was proclaiming her undying love to my husband. Seems quick and reboundish to me! My husband felt badly for her and was hesitant to be too harsh with her, but I kept telling him, as did others, that her attachment to him was strange and too quick and that she still had not healed from her own husband heartache and had not reconcilled that situation yet. So, we see...

Just a quick thought about the purchase of furniture. Basically, because I am a stay at home mom, the house is my office. I don't go to my husband's office and move his stuff around so he rarely does it here. If we're going to mkae a big purchase such as a couch or significant piece of furniture, we do it together. But, I've learned that getting my way is not always the best method. So what if he likes a dark cherry table and I don't...it's his house too so I just smile and say "sure". I choose my battles....furniture is not one that means enough to me. But, one thing we have going in our favor is the fact that our tastes are quite similar. Except for his complete love affair with the color white! Come on, show some excitement please!!! Anyway, because marriage is a complete full time job, this aspect I don't make such a big deal of. A long time ago he commented that I don't listen to his opinion regarding the house and it annoyed him. My original reaction was to say "so, what's your point?" but I zipped my lip and smile! It's easier sometimes.
Are you really in California? I never know what's real or not online?

Oooh, I'm so excited to hear that your potential argument turned into a productive talk. That is awesome!

If you can't tell from that sentence, yes, I really am in California <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Are you in California too?

No, nothing all that exciting! I'm in Pennsylvania. Snow, ice, rain...you know, all the good stuff! However, California sounds great to me!

I know I'm late to the game, but maybe my perspective would help. Three things about men:

1) Many of us like to fix things. Not people, but things. It's a conundrum, because you cannot fix people, and fixing things keeps people from fixing themselves. I could see myself wanting to help, like your H did.

2) Men often do not understand the emotions of women, nor the idea of transference. When we try to help people, we can be blind to the emotional fallout we create. The OW felt overwhelmed, your H (knight in shining armor) rushed in, and the OW saw him as the answer to all her problems. This is a very important point. Earlier you said that either he was dumb or honestly thought he was doing nothing wrong. I'd vote for both. He thought nothing was wrong BECAUSE he was dumb! He did not see himself in an EA, and was clueless to what was going on from HER end. One difference between your H and myself, perhaps, is I trust my DW completely on these matters. If DW says to me, "That woman is flirting with you, stay away from her" I do it. The last thing I want is more emotional attachments to people I have not made any promises to.

3) Men often have unmet needs for admiration. After you have been married a while, you get used to the wonderful qualities of your spouse, and perhaps take them for granted. It's possible your H was pleasantly surprised by the admiration the OW gave.

In this situation, I think that respect and honesty are called for. Say EXACTLY what you mean, and what is bothering you. I don't think the funeral is what bothered you so much as the fact that this woman is no friend to the marriage. Say that. Also, your H needs to be radically honest as well. He needs to say why he wants to stay in contact with her when it hurts you. What is he getting out of it? How can the two of you make sure he gets that without her.

YMMV

That was super. It's nice to hear it from a man's point of view. It almost seems as if you know H. He's really not a bad guy, just at a bad stage where his kindness was squandered and manipulated. I believe, very early on, that she knew exactly what she was doing. I also believe, very early on, he did not. I can't help but stress enough...if this was simply a work related friendship and she did not start professing undying love/devotion, I would have been more ok with it than I was. I saw it right from the start. H didn't even know what an EA was! He needs to watch Oprah a bit more!! I believe he has very wide open eyes right now, but we're on different levels as to our opinion as to OW's destructive nature. How long does it take for her to understand? I suppose, as long as it takes for him to be firm. But, how do you combat the fact that he thinks firm=mean? He's not a mean person but as far as I'm concerned, he's waffling. I think I'll show him your post...he'll appreciate that there may be someone else out there that "gets" what he originally intended.

Mr. Goodwrench, thank you for an excellent post! After reading it I asked my husband casually if he felt he had a need for admiration and he said yes. Then I asked if he felt like it was getting met and he said no! I do admire my husband, but I guess I don't really let him know enough so I will be working on that. I did share with him some thoughts I had the other day about how naturally charismatic he is and he really appreciated that. I take the bus to and from work, so when I'm walking I have some time for random thinking, but by the time I get home I'm busy thinking about getting dinner organized, so the thoughts never get transmitted.

Fiori, I hate to tell you this but today in CA it was sunny and about 78 degrees. You should get hubby to bring you out for a little getaway <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Last April I spent a week in LA, got around using the the Big Blue Bus. People in CA are friendly, maybe too friendly. One woman asked me if I was a tourist. I told her that I was, and she asked me how I liked LA. I told her it was great, really liked the weather, there was practically no humidity.

She said, that was the problem, humidity cleanses your soul <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Lack of humidity was the reason that everyone in LA was crazy.

I told her that I must have the cleanest soul in LA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Gee, I wonder where you went?!?!? It's "me!" Glad you came here for more pro marriage advice. I don't have time this morning but I will try and re-read up on your stitch and check in later.

Have a great day!

"ME" who?

Let's just say I know what message board you were on before this one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Did you send the other woman here? I hope she does come because the people here are more understanding.

Hey snugglefresh...
I was just checking in to see that all is well with you. WE're having a great weekend. Lots of events with our children, who continue to be our cement! That, and the fact that when you remove outside influences, we actually enjoy each other's company. I'm a bit nervous for tomorrow because the outside influence returns to work after a month away. My H has been great but I dont' always trust her. That "out of sight, out of mind" thing works great but I'm afraid when she returns the "sleeping giant" will be awoken. Yes, I know....if there's no interest from H part her influence is a moot point, but I'm not emotionally there yet. I just wait for the other shoe to drop. I'm wondering how long it takes to feel secure again. I'm wondering if I ever will. We were always "that couple". The one who everyone used as a measuring stick for happiness. This enables me to be a bit "cocky" as to our security and I'm sure this is where my part of the "ball dropping" occurred. I just never thought....
So, we move "us" to the front burner and we move forward. I still need for someone to make a vacuum for the brain -- I need some thoughts erased.
By the way...do you know who the previous post is from? I'm not sure who this is but they seem to know me. I hope your weekend is going well. And, the 78 degree comment was simply cruel LOL!

Hi fiori! Thanks for checking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I hope the last half of your weekend was as great as the first half! It is so nice to get that good quality time with husband and family.

I will be keeping my fingers crossed that all goes smoothly this week at your husband's work. Hopefully in time you'll get back that secure feeling. I think you will. You are right not to trust that woman and it sounds like your husband has realized that too. It's natural to get a little freaked out when someone breaks your trust like that. Then it takes time to figure out what is the right amount of caution to have and what is too much. You don't want to overreact or underreact. Ultimately though you'll be wiser and then you'll be even MORE "that couple"! Hee, hee!

My weekend was so busy! Saturday was our social day (work event in the morning and friend's party in the evening). Sunday was our work day (meeting for a side project and housework for me, open house for husband). My poor husband got a touch of food poisioning at the party Saturday night, so he has been feeling a little off all day today. He wasn't even hungry for dinner <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Tonight we did get in some good quality time just talking though. One of my issues is splitting up the housework (basically getting him to help more) and getting things done around the house. For some weird reason, me nagging him does not work! LOL! So we are going to try planning together what to do every week. We're going to start tomorrow night by making a big list. It was nice to be able to talk about this and not fight about it.

Oh, I don't know who that post is from, but I haven't been on this board for a very long time. Maybe she posts under a different name on the other board you went to?

I dont' see any evidence of others jumping here. But, your secrecy concerns me....how do we know you're not one of the meanies?

Housework...yeah! It's always fun trying to figure that one out. I don't usually ask H for help, as I'm a stay/home mom and really do ok doing the lions share on my own. About twice a year things get away with me and he steps in and helps me get a handle on things. It's amazing watching him do some things...he's so thorough because it's not something he does on a daily basis. Just moving the furniture to vacuum! Yeah when that gets done. Or, vacuuming the steps...this is his pet peave so I let him do it. I just don't have the interest in going over each step multitudes of times.
Do you both work full time? If so, it's really important that you both figure out who does what...no where does it say that since you're a woman, you should do the housework.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yes, we both work full time so we need to find a way to share the housework. The problem is my husband's trigger level for when a household chore needs to be done and my trigger level are waaaay off, so I end up doing most of the housework because it bugs me first. It's not like I didn't know this before we got married. I'd seen that his sink was always full of dirty dishes when we were dating. My glimmer of hope is that I know he really likes when the house is clean. And he does think he should could contribute to maintaining the house. He just doesn't like it when it seems to him that I am the boss telling him what to do, which I only do because it seems like he has no idea what housework needs to be done ... LOL! So we are going to try having basically a "team meeting" like at work, where we together make a list of what needs to be done and then divide up the work. Don't know if it'll work, but I gotta keep trying!

Something that I initated recently is the 30-minute rule. We all clean for 30 minutes a day, and then stop, and live our lives. I get to tell D17 what work to do, but if H participates, he can do whatever he wants, LOL. But 30 minutes a day is very doable, and doesn't seem like much, but you'd be amazed how much you can get done! And after a couple weeks, the picking up is already taken care of, so you can start going after the baseboards and hard stuff.

ETA I had a friend who made her whole family clean - every Saturday morning. All morning. Every week. The whole family. That's the only time they cleaned, but man that house was spotless! I never could do it because I felt too guilty at robbing D17 of Saturday morning cartoons, LOL.

Heh heh, well for starters my name is not Deb! I will send you an e-mail. I just have been so busy I haven't had time. I did post to you on your other thread. I am so glad you came here. I NEVER let anyone there know about this site unless I see someone getting beaten up. They can be very helpful over there for other situations but not when it comes to affairs. They beat up both WS and BS.

Thank you...sometimes I just want to reach into my computer and pull people away from the assault. They think they're being helpful, but it's not what people are looking for. Love to be her friend! NOT!
Anyway, it has been very helpful here. I feel compassion where I only felt sadness before. Thanks. I did try to email another who was getting attacked but she has not responded. I see her still getting bashed and I don't understand why she stays for the abuse. Sometimes when you feel you don't have any other options, something is better than nothing. I'm greatful to you.

Thanks for the tip catperson! I don't think I would be able to motivate myself to do cleaning all Saturday morning, but 30 minutes a day seems very doable. We talked last night and laid out all the things that we would like to get done, regular cleaning and special projects, and agreed that on Friday after work we would plan out cleaning for the next week. My husband was considering a plan similar to your friend's Saturday morning thing, only he was going to do all his yard work Sunday morning. In practice, I think it will get moved around because sometimes he works on Sundays or meets friends for coffee. We'll see!

Fiori and suamico, I don't know about this other board you guys go to, it sounds scary ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Well, snuglefresh...if you want a good verbal lashing let me know and I'll hook you up. They make cuddling a new puppy seem like a horrific thing to do!
Happy dusting!!

Inertia comes into play for me. When things are clean, I tend to want to keep them clean. When it's a mess, I just add to the pile. This w/e we cleaned out our closet. Monday I woke up, looked in the closet, thought I was in the wrong house!

We tend to go at cleaning hammer and tongs on Sat mornings, but that's not how we want to spend it. We try to get it done somewhat during the week, but always busy. This week we started with a clean house, we'll see how it goes.

Something else I read once said to spend 5 minutes when you get home from work, school, whatever, just putting away. Not cleaning, just putting things where they belong. I know in my house that is the big issue. We drop stuff on the kitchen counter, table, coffee table, stairs, bed, dresser, instead of taking the extra 30 seconds to put something where it belongs. Like the 30-minute rule, but just to declutter. I've been thinking about doing that before everyone goes to bed, which might be more workable, since we're all in the same place at the same time.

Does anyone go to flylady.net? People keep recommending it for getting your life under control, but I never have the time to sit down and navigate it. Maybe I'll work on that.

Also, a couple of people here say that they rent out dumpsters once a year or so, and then have the whole family empty out all the unneccessary stuff in their lives. They park the dumpster in your driveway, you fill it up, and they haul it away. I told MrCat I was going to do that this summer, trying to get him warmed up to the idea, since 90% of all the junk in our house is his.

All the junk in our house belongs to H. He has kept things that no one person should have! My one neighbor thought I was moving because I cleaned the attic last Spring...lots of stuff is gone and no one is the wiser. And, add two kids who are also savers and we've got trouble.
But, since I'm a tosser, there are some times I appreciate the H saving because it's nice to look back...sometimes.

I've got a bit of that saver in me too. We started an annual neighborhood garage sale a couple years ago and that has helped me do a purge once a year, but it is amazing how much stuff we accumulate even in that short time!

Last night the H asked me to be patient with him. Exactly what am I being patient for? Didn't he cultivate the toxic friendship that broke MY heart? What am I waiting for ?

Sounds like you are not having such a great day <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I hope things will get better soon.

I'm kind of confused as to why your husband would say this. It seems like you ARE being pretty patient. What more does he want?

You're the only one who can answer the question of what you are waiting for. What do you think the answer might be?

Well, I think he's getting a bit 'tired' of my constant questions. What he does not realize is that every moment of every day this is on my mind. Until he either gets a new job or she moves to Alaska I'm not going to begin the complete phase of recovery. He does realize this, but I think it's frustrating from his stand point too. He's incredibly disappointed with himself and is in the phase of his own recovery where he's trying to understand the "why" of it all. I don't know the why from his perspective. I do know that we simply became too lazy about what we did for each other. Our kids took center stage, his job infiltrated our family time and we both just let it go. So, now we got a real kick in the pants and we need to move forward..either together or not. I believe it will be together, and so does he, but the timing is stinky. I want to wake up and realize I had a horrific nightmare. It's actually so weird to be 'us' right now. We both seem so tentative with each other. I try to NOT talk about my feelings all the time, but it's not easy. H is dealing with alot of guilt and shock and this is not easy with our repair. I'm getting impatient because I think he should be wooing me back. This was never really his style, but I think he needs to step out of his comfort zone and step it up a bit. Do you think I'm being unreasonalbe?

I think you should brainstorm - together - new ways for you to reconnect. Now that you're older, maybe more financially stable or more mature, what would you do together for fun? Sounds like you need to have fun back in your lives. I was telling someone that I check the local websites and papers and look for local things going on that you wouldn't normally think of doing, like high school plays (not their dances, ugh!), college ball games, amateur theaters, new parks in the area for picnics, new sports like model sailboats or skating or tennis or street hockey, go to open houses, wine tastings...tons of stuff out there that doesn't get much press but can be very fun for the whole family. Get your passion back in your life.

Hi fiori! Hope you and your family are having a nice weekend.

I don't think you are being unreasonable, but making demands isn't going to help you get back the security you want. I don't think you would want your husband wooing you back just because he feels like he has to or you'll be mad. It sounds like your husband is going through a lot of mental anguish right now so it is probably hard for him to be in woo-mode (I like that word!) ... you know how men can only work on one problem at a time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I like catperson's ideas for finding new activities to do together, so do give him some hints about what he can do to woo you and be patient if he can't manage it all right away. Don't just ask him to woo you without giving him guidance on what that means to you.

Be patient too with your relationship. He has hurt you badly and as in any relationship, when something like this happens, both people will feel awkward for a while, but eventually it goes away. Did you ever have a fight with a close friend? I think it's something like that. At first you will both feel weird and wonder if the other person is still mad and walk on eggshells since you don't want to say or do the wrong thing. In time though you get back that comfort level and gradually things get back to normal one day without you even realizing it.

Hi, Fiori!

Hope you and your H are doing better.
I don't want to hurt your feelings, but by him asking you to be patient with him, it sounds like he has some unresolved feelings toward OW. It's called the "fog". Plus, he's dealing with the shame and guilt.

You're not being unreasonable. It's perfectly normal, the feelings you have, based on the situation. Your H has taken what belongs to you exclusively as his wife and shared it with someone else. Just because it was emotional, doesn't negate that it was a betrayal. For some people, that it was emotional hurts as bad as if there was had been a physical element.

Cat is on target with her advice. In fact, Dr Harley recommends that couples spend a minimum of 15 hours of time alone together each week. Have you been able to read up on the articles on this site? There's a lot of excellent advice for bringing the WS out of the fog and restoring the M, making it stronger than ever.

Btw, so glad to see the NC in place.

My advice to you is to make yourself and your home as warm and inviting as possible. If you can get him to do the emotional needs and love busters questionnaires that would be great. Then new activities that you do together can meet both of your emotional needs and fill up the love bank.

Also, if talking about it constantly seems to be a love buster for him at this time, then you'll have to avoid it as much as you can. For the time being, can you write down your questions in a notebook and ask him if he write his answers back. That way, it gives you both some space to think. Writing it out is quite therapeutic. Takes the pressure off of him to give you a verbal response that might not come out the way he means it.

Remember, no love busting. 15 hours a week together as couple time. Make yourself and your home warm and inviting.
Continue reading here.

(((((hugs))))
&
<<<<prayers>>>

Jewel

Hey Jewel...
Things here are ok. Last night we sat at the kitchen table and did the questionnaires. He was under the impression that this would cause a fight, but it really worked out well. I had done mine earlier in the day and I waiting for him to finish his. Then, we had a four hour long discussion as to what it means. He feels like he "failed" the test, but I attempted to get him to realize it was not a test, just a tool for future growth....I think he understands. He did say that he did not realize how much he was neglected ME through our marriage and that he now sees the importance of both being on the same page. Hmmm...
Anyway, the only problem we've encountered is this wretched NC. He believes that if it was an EA (which he says it only was), that by sending the letter you give it more due than it deserves. I get what he's saying but I've insisted anyway. I hesitate to "wake a sleeping giant", but you got to do what you got to do! So, he's stayed home this morning to work on his resume, do some email and write a letter. We'll see how this all works out. Keep those hugs and prayers comming! Also, have you ever looked up hicktownmommy? She's struggling too and you seem to be a nice voice of reason.

Hey fiori! I'm glad to hear that you and your husband are getting on the same page about each others needs. Those questionnaires are so helpful!

Hi fiori! Are you still around? Just wanted to check in and see how you are doing.

SF,
I was thinking about you today. I'm afraid I'm not so good at navigating the new site yet. Actually, I was pretty dismal at the old one! I guess I should activate the email response thing so I know when someone has posted to me!
All is pretty well here. This past weekend marked the one year anniversary of the first time H made a choice to NOT honor our relationship. I was really apprehensive about going into this weekend as there were soooo many bad memories. Easter should be joyous, but it was a drag. But, once again, I proclaimed "happy saturday" and did not dwell on the awful. Friday was tough because I found out that H called OW and left a messege on her home phone (while she was at work) re-affirming that under NO circumstances should she call our home or his cell any longer. This weekend was the first since her mom died and her b-day. All reasons why she would have called in the past. Anyway, I was really hurt and angry that he called, but a few others have indicated that I should be hopeful that he took charge...blah blah blah..I'm working on that one. But, other than that little blip, it was a good weekend. We even managed to have a very productive and civilized conversation about OW two days in a row. No crying, no arguing, no unkind words...Then, Monday night as we were raking leaves, he thanked me for my constant perseverence and the fact that I jumped through hoops of flames to bring him out of his fog. He apologized again for being so selfish...So, I'm hopeful but cautious. I'm not sure she is done with him yet, but most of the time I do believe he's done with her. I found another posting on here from the WS perspective and I printed it for him to read. I think this will help him to see that he's not a bad person, he just did a bad thing! I almost see the fog lifting...
We'll see where it goes.
So, how are you? You were sooo instrumental in the beginning of my issues here so I hope all is well in your world.
D

Hi fiori! I'm still trying to get used to the new site as well, so I totally understand. It always takes me awhile to rewire my old habits :p

I am really happy to hear your husband acknowledging you directly. It sounds like he really is starting to understand what you have been going through and what inner strength it has taken for you to keep the marriage together. Your marriage is going to be stronger than ever, I just know it.

Things with me have been pretty good. Yesterday my husband actually asked me if I would like to do the dinner dishes together! He has really been helping a lot more and making time to just sit and talk with me. I used to worry about how things would be if/when we start a family (like how much I would resent it if I ended up doing all the work), but now when I think about it I am able to see us really sharing the load.