It really hurts that everyone is so quick to write off my opinions by saying I am in a fog. Just because someone had an affair doesn't mean they are forever in a fog, otherwise where would the hope be for those of you trying to reconnect with your spouses? My affair ended 3 years ago by choice to try to save my marriage. I fought for my relationship with my husband.

I'm hearing alot of stuff about how to manipulate his wife into doing what he wants. Isn't that the opposite of what MB teaches? It's not about manipulating each other into meeting our own needs.

Ultimately my relationship with my husband could not continue because of this type of obsessive behavior before during and after my A. I am not accusing Jason of not loving his wife, of course he does. But sometimes one partner can be so emotionally needy that they drain their spouse until they feel numb. I am not saying the A shouldn't have been exposed, but it should have been handled differently. He is reacting to panic and probably not thinking clearly when he does.

LASG

I can say that I feel that I'm not overly needy. I do like to spend time with my wife and kids above anything else.

Do I have my own hobbies, yes. In the past, I've played video games, sports, fish hobby, photography, web editing, etc. My wife has no hobbies. My wife has few to no friends. She never really calls anybody except now the OM. I have various friends that I speak to frequently. We keep in touch. My wife does keep in touch with her family like I do my friends and family.

I have become financially dependent on her. I do feel that I do things, and am independent. I feel what exists is co-dependency. She feels I can not stand up on my own without her. I will tell you, I will do just that now. I can move on with my own life. However, I would rather stand up with her. In a marrige, I feel there has to be co-dependency. you help support one another, like many species do in the natural world. For example, flowers...certain species might be co-dependent on a select species of insect to pollenate them. Likewise, the select species of insect depends on the nectar from that species of flower. I do not think, either of us would fail w/o each other...but both would be damaged. My wife, I feel, doesn't see, or isn't capable of seeing what she will miss. I don't want her to go to far and realize it's too late. I love her...not just for my own selfish reasons. I don't think she is being logical in her actions and thoughts. I know she is her own person, but for the kids, her, and myself...I want to keep fighting for our marriage.

I do not understand why my wife can not get it out of her head that I can not be self sufficient. She feels I am a quitter. She has rationalized so many things to feel this way. She said, "I can think of 8 things where you have quit on me." She started naming things off, and the reality wasn't there. Yes, some examples. If I remember, everyone of her arguments of my failure were on acquring a career. One she said you bought tools and never did it (wrong, I never bought tools, and I didn't do apprenticeship b/c I opted to go into electrical pre-apprenticeship). Other examples was a lighting saleman position...that we both thought was worth a try. I immediately learned it was not me, and quit w/in 1-2 weeks. I was selling a 40W lightbulb for $30. Come on, I can't sell a product if I know it's a rip-off. I'm not kidding, they were that expensive. I know she had as much interest in me trying this, actually more...but I said, why not. We paid, and got information, and you learn what a croc it all was. She said my plumbing apprenticeship offer. I had decided 1-2 weeks prior to commmit to education. I got the offer I had wanted though...$34/hr salary as journeyman, and the skills in plumbing would tie in well with my fish hobby. However, I was firm on decision to try to become an educator.

Of any decision, I can say...my decision to become an educator was where I failed. I will admit it. I went through it, and had second guesses. I have told my wife, I just did not feel rushed to get anywhere professionally as she preached this to me too. I was a stay-at-home dad...and would get a career when the kids were out of the house. At the time we had 2 still at home, and hoping one would soon be on the way. I wanted to take some time off...and decide that's what I wanted. I know we spent $$$ on furthering my education. I would take this all back, and finish my certification. But, I can't take back what happened.

Other than that, I have followed through on my jobs. After graduating college, I got into a very good job. It didn't happen overnight. I worked hard. I moved up in the company quickly. I think making $42K + 5K bonus was pretty good towards the end. I got laid off though. We knew I would need to make about $15/hr to make it worthwhile for me to work (daycare, etc. expenses). So, we opted for me to stay at home, and go from there. You know the rest of the story.

Financially dependent...for the most part yes over the past several years. I did get a part-time job managing 50 apt's. When me moved to central illinois, I left that position. I could have done more at home. I know I've gotten much better the past several months, and I will continue to improve. I am at the point of getting a job. I will do very well for myself...might take time. I will continue to make dinner and clean the house...love my wife...love my kids. What is not to like in that? I will do beyond my share. She just needs to see that I am co-dependent on her..not dependent. I will do anything for her and the kids, and I'm sorry, but that should account for something. I am needy...this is the #1 person who should be fulfilling my needs, right? I know my kids fill things, but this is my soul-mate...and we share things beyond what we would w/ the kids (sex, finances, etc.).

I honestly believe my wife has taken on way too many responsibilities with work and the homelife...and she is looking for a way out (excuses, etc.). She is trying to run away, and can't cope w/ saying she quit herself. I want to help her...but she has to realize she has to set some limitations.

I hope things work out for us. I'm at the point where I think I'm going to throw myself into our marriage knowing chances are perhaps not likely (her feelings and actions speak this 100%). So, I'm moving on w/ my life...trying to save our marriage throwing my own self to be hurt again. I'm putting my trust in her, which I'm hesitant on doing...but I'm making that leap. If I get hurt, I know I tried, and will stand up tall knowing I did everything I could. I will move on regardless. I hope I have a success story, and one I can share with others. Either way, hopefully it helps one person to realize I may have acted properly/improperly. As we all are in the same boat...this is not anywhere you would want anybody to be.

lasoutherngirl,

I don't think anyone was quick to judgment with you at all. Since your first post, I have been fighting the urge to simply crash on you.

That said, people say you are in a fog because of the things you say and the way you come across in your posts. This is not a statement that you are a bad person or that you have no good qualities, simply that you speak as one who made choices and now want to shift the blame for those choices to someone else.

That is why I asked if you would begin your own thread, so that your situation can be discussed without threadjacking PB's thread. I think you could benefit a great deal from sharing your story and hearing other people's take on it. And by doing that in a thread of your own, it would allow PB to continue getting advice without interference.

What have you read on this site so far? Have you read the Basic Concepts? Have you read the Q&A columns on infidelity? Have you read any of Dr Harley's books? Have you read any threads that pertain to situations similar to yours, since as you have already noted, your situation is not very different than PB's, though from the other side of the equation.

And you can rest assured that LaLa was exactly where you are not very long ago. She too would never have considered herself to be in a fog at the time. It was by reading and learning here that she has reached the point where she is today. She is a FWW who has learned that she was in fact foggy throughout her affair and for some time afterward. I think she could be of help to you.

Your marriage is actually far from hopeless as it stands right now. Much of the difficulty you are facing is because of a lack of knowledge on your part. (I am NOT saying your husband has no part in any of this, only that you are here and have an opportunity to learn what you can to make your marriage (this one or the next one) better and perhaps even better than you could have ever imagined.

As for manipulation of PB's wife...

The problem they are having is because of her ongoing affair. Until that affair is over, there is zero chance of reconciliation. PB's efforts are geared toward ending that affair by doing specific things, all clearly taught and encouraged not only by MB, but by Dr Harley himself. These things are part of what is called Plan A, which is an effort by the betrayed spouse to swallow their pride, their pain and their anger and improve their ability to meet the ENs of the wayward spouse while identifying love busters in their own actions and so become more attractive to the wayward spouse.

At the same time, exposure and other pressure is applied to the affair itself in an effort to negotiate or force an end to it, since the affair is the problem.

While this may sound like manipulation to you, it is also true that his wayward wife is also doing all that she can do to manipulate PB. She is attempting to keep her affair partner in the loop, is claiming to be working on the marriage while really doing little more than giving lip service to that concept and using financial leverage to her utmost in order to pressure PB to simply roll over and let her have her way.

Considering that statistically, over 90% of all affairs end of their own weight within 2 years, in part because an affair is based on lies, deception and immoral actions and choices, the likelihood of PB's wife ending up with her affair partner is pretty small. And since most affairs that do result in marriage end within 5 years of that marriage, very little reason to throw away a long time relationship for a "chance" that is between slim and none seems rather fruitless.

You can continue to post on this or any other thread if you would like, but I also would encourage you to begin your own thread. You should expect people to be honest with you as to what they perceive in your posts, since very few people here have much desire to make people feel good at the expense of reality.

Mark

lasoutherngirl...Please read the Fog thread in my sig line and then the following thread that is linked. Just the first few pages will be enough for you to understand what people here are saying to you. Start your own thread. I will not T/J PhysicsBoys's thread any longer with your issues. To come onto a newly BS's thread and say the things you have said to him when he has almost lost his kids and is suicidal is just plain IGNORANT!! It is utterly disrespectful to him and all the other BSs here who are suffering because of the things WSs (LIKE YOU AND I) have done.

And may I submit that from reading your posts, (although I know NOTHING of your sitch, since you have not taken the time to share your story before posting advice to others who are in pain) that YOU and your lack of understanding of the PAIN a BS suffers (seeing it as obsessive) is the core of your failed M. But, enough about that on another's thread!!

PB-PLEASE go get a lawyer TODAY. You MUST protect yourself and your children from your WW right now. She is not thinking clearly, and you must step up and use the law to your advantage before she destroys you and your children's lives. You live in IL, which is (I believe) a "fault" state, which mean adultery WILL be used against her. Make sure you get a BULLDOG attorney, one who is not afraid to fight tooth and nail for you. Half of that $25k is YOURS by LAW and you should not feel ashamed that you are entitled to it!

Stop her before she blows the money. You have already shown yourself to be a man of action. You told OMW which took a HUGE amount of guts and will be the KEY in the end of their A. Also, your WW has shown major signs of her love for you. She is sick right now. Reasoning with her is like reasoning with a falling-down drunk. OM WILL throw her under the bus and she will be forced to face the consequences of her actions through her job. But do not make your children suffer any longer.

Get a lawyer, protect your finances and your children, and MOVE BACK INTO YOUR HOME!! Your L can assist you with this and it needs to be done IMMEDIATELY!!

I applaud you for your courage up to this point, but you need to be very smart from here on out about your means of approach. This will be your new mantra...when she brings up separation or divorce, say "My L handles D, and I will only talk about marriage with you." Then walk away. Do not engage in an argument. Do not do any more exposure for right now. Do not call anyone else but a LAWYER IMMEDIATELY! This does not mean you have to file for a D, but you can get back in your house and protect yourself and your children from further attacks from your foggy wife.

GET IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT NOW PB, BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!!!

PB,

Illinois is one of the few states that still has Alienation of Affection laws on the books.

Get a lawyer...

Mark

There's NO WAY you, as a stay at home father, should be removed from your home.

If you have a joint credit card...go get yourself a pit-bull attorney and charge the retainer fee to such card.

He/she will likely tell you that the Sheriff duped you out of your home and that no paperwork was ever actually filed. He/she will tell you to give him one or two days to prepare the paperwork and then you are to move home at the precise moment that he/she files a petition of separtion together with a motion for maintenance and sole occupancy of the marital home. He/she will utilize the sheriff's and WW's misdeed of removing you against them as an example of their inability to handle the best interests of the children.

YOU should be in the driver's seat in this custody battle. You aren't a failure, you are a stay at home dad...something up until your wife started sleeping around and wanting to leave you she found very handy as she advanced HER career, as she spent LONG nights "working" late with OM.

Take this bull by the horns and proceed legally today. It's likely the best shot for your marriage but it's certianly the best shot for you retaining primary custody of your children. Every day you maintain the status quo and live at your parents is a nail in the coffin of your custody case. Your children are depending upon you to protect them.

Don't worry about legal fees...your wife is an accountant and the primary breadwinner. She'll most likely have to pay them as you raise your children. The more expensive the more SHE will have to pay and the more likely she'll put a stop to her shenanigans because it's costing HER money. (she earened that bonus during your marriage...it's NOT her little nestegg to keep and spend...if you file a case...such money will be FROZEN and she'll likely have to cancel that little secret trip her and OM planned after Tax day...April 15th).

Another thing...inviting you over for dinner, being nice to you, etc....she's just playing you. She's got what she wants and now just needs to delay. The longer she delays the better for her case against you. Right now...she'd be very lucky to achieve 50-50 custody, give this situation 10-20 days and you'll be lucky to get 50-50 custody of your kids. The courts will NOT bail you out and hand you back your children SIX - 12 MONTHS FROM NOW because you USED TO be their primary parent. Circumstances change the court will most likely and favor maintaining a consistent parenting schedule as it exists that day previous week/month and NOT how it existed in 2007.

GET ON THE BALL....SEE A GOOD LAWYER....YESTERDAY.

Mr. Wondering, attorney at law

I really hope you listen to Mr. W. Although most of the time I really doubt you even read these posts to you.

PB,

Since you are in Illinois and I am too, I may have a lawyer for you if you are in the North Suburbs (Lake, McHenry or Northern Cook Counties.) For any others in that geographic location, I post this link Do Not Divorce.

This firm, while specializing in many differing aspects of law actually advertises in commercials with the phrase, "Don't get a divorce." They will work with you on saving a marriage before filing for divorce if that is your choice, but the founders of the firm believe in the sanctity of marriage and that it is the most important relationship of your life next to God.

Just thought I'd pass it along, just in case you're in their neck of the woods. If you are elsewhere in Illinois, PB, and need an ear, send me an email (my addy is in my profile) and I'll send you my phone number.

I may be having a get together with a few other guys from the forum in the next few weeks, so depending on where you are, you could maybe join us.

Or not...

The choice is yours.

Mark

Thanks to all for your posts. LASG, I actually appreciate your comments as much as anybody's. I have to make my own decision, and I appreciate your insight on things. I'm not saying I'd follow your advice, but I can relate things you say to my wife.

Tyk, don't be so negative. I read these posts...every single one of them. I ponder each and every piece of advice.

I did see an attorney Friday of last week. He ran late, and we simply discussed basic details. I felt he was the furthest from being an attack dog type attorney.

My wife and I went to Marriage counselor on Monday. The session went well. We ate at her parents b4 we went.

The next night, she invited me over for dinner. She had visited her Pshycologist earlier that day. Crazy, as it wasn't overly touchy feely, or anything when I first went over. But, as I was leaving, she said come kiss me. I approached her, and she did not turn her head. The next thing we were going at, kissing and groping each other. I don't know, but we had to break for kids. Then, we got back together kissing, etc. We laid on the couch...clothed, etc., but thrusted, etc. We had a lot of fun, and it was very "hot." We did not have sex, as my wife did not want to.

The next night (Wed), she came home in a different mood. She had seen an attorney. Turns out she found out I had a very good chance of getting the kids. I comforted her telling her I would not fight for the kids. She had slipped out getting some legal documentation that I would be served with to ensure/help her get custody of the kids. I don't know. I would love to have the kids, and at the same token, am selfliess to give them to her. Perhaps I'm not thinking rationally on the matter.

I know she didnt' get the paperwork filed the following day (well, she said she did not). I had called my attorney Thursday, but he never called me back. I do not think I want to fight for the kids now...I want to work on our marriage.

I got a job offer too, pays around $30K/yr w/ benefits (area I live in, it's a good job). It's welding, which doesn't apply my college skills, but it's a job. I can move up if I work hard I feel. Anyway, Beth had asked me to ask for a delayed start so I could go w/ family to FL. I did, and they said that'd be fine. I'll start 3/31, but now I haven't heard back from the company (CAT). I think everything is fine, and I have a job, but no exact start date now (had one on Thursday, but asked to start later). Ugggh. I should get her stuff in writing. I just know it will piss her off.

My brother sent me a site with IL attorneys with their ratings. I am considering switching...get an attack-dog like one. I don't want custody to be a battle.

BTW, I'm on prozac from my psychologist...said he felt I was depressed, and it would help our sessions.

My wife told me last night, she didn't want to date anybody right now. She just enjoyed being with me (why she has had me over these past few nights). I'm conflicted...as I want to help her out in small ways. I feel I need to stop cold turkey on things so she sees what life will be like w/o me. She is going to CHI next week and needs somebody for 3 days and 2 nights. I told her I'd probably do it. What do I do?

I suppose you all will say contact an attorney.

i'm just so confused...on so many other fronts now.

She says she can't trust me. I feel she thinks I'm most to blame for her affair. She feels I was not meeting her needs, and she was just taking care of me. I've told her, I will do anything for our M. I just don't think she has the remorse she should w/ her actions...and I feel she has taken little action (except what courts could see - marriage counselor and psychologist) to help our marriage. She hasn't read anything I've asked her too (about affairs and getting over them). I've asked her to write down EN etc. of OM provided to her that she felt I wasn't. I have gotten a brief statement, etc. But, I want something thought out...written, and something I can work with.

BTW, I'm in Central Illinois Mark.

For others, http://www.martindale.com/secure/MyMartindale.aspx

Rating of AV is the best, BV is 2nd best, etc.

PB,

I'm confused as he//...

Do you want to save your marriage?

Why would you give up your kids?

Mark (Shaking his head)

Have you even talked to an attorney yet PB?

She put her tongue in his mouth and his brains went south. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

(sigh) After all this time, the poor man still doesn't know when he's being used by a WW..!

PB, time to grow two and stop letting your WW take advantage of you like that!

Who wouldn't be emotionally needy when their spouse is in an affair?

Good grief. If you can't see that, then perhaps you ARE still a bit foggy.

To justify ending a relationship because your spouse was emotionally needy during your affair. That is rich. Next you will be telling us that if someone is emotionally needy after the death of a child or parent, that it's OK to leave as well, right?

If you ended your marriage, if you filed, you cannot put the blame on your husbands being emotionally needy. That's deflection.

Sorry, own your choices, and don't pass them off as because of someone else.

Adults own their decisions.

Not me, I jumped in feet first <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw this. She exhibits classic deflection. I had to do these bad things because my husband....
I think there is some value to PB seeing the justifications typically used by the WS, but at some point, there are diminishing returns.
Excellent point.

With such an apparent lack of empathy for what a BS goes through post-D-Day, I'd be particularly interested in how you think you "fought" for your relationship" with your H.

Your link doesn't work. I'm also in Central IL, near STL, if you are interested in a cup of coffee.

I'll be in Boston next week, but am usually in the area.

PB,

I'm about half-way between Chicago and Bloomington...

DS22 is about to graduate (he'd better) from ISU so I get that far often.

Mark

That is really really disappointing to hear. I had to fight tooth and nail to get 50/50 time with my kids, and I would have preferred to have them full time if I could. So to see someone who has every chance to get full time custody give up without an argument, in order to appease his cheating W (while betraying the kids), is really sad.

I sure hope you'll reconsider.

AGG