????

As I understand it, POJA is NOT veto power. It is communication.

Anyone who thinks that a wife telling a husband 'no, you cannot look at it because I say so' will get what she wants is ignoring human nature. As has been suggested, he will just learn how to hide it. Any time one partner demands of the other, that is acting like a parent. And like any child, the non-parent in the relationship will just nod their head yes and hide what they're doing.

Now, if you sit down with your partner and explain what it does to you, and say 'I'm sure you love me more than the kicks you'd get out of that magazine, don't you? So what can the two of us do in the bedroom that makes our R more appealing?' will have a much better chance of success.

fwiw, I think Mr Goodwrench was speaking very logically.

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your feedback. Namaste.

Let me point out a couple of things. I am not giving advice here, just my opinion. If I were giving advice, it would be worth every penny I charge <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Also, if you could tell me to which piece of advice you are referring, it would be more constructive for me. Also, in all things, YMMV. I can only work with what works for me.

As for Dr. Harley and the POJA - let me refer you to the man himself. The following is from the Q&A Trouble with the POJA #2:

I'm not sure you have actually been following the Policy of Joint Agreement. You must do more than just give something up, you must also try to negotiate a solution that meets with the enthusiastic agreement of both you and your wife.

So, I read that to mean no veto power, you may read it differently. If giving your spouse veto power works for you, fantastic. I am very happy for you. I could not do that myself, nor would I expect my wife to agree to such a thing. As always, YMMV.

I think you guys agree on more than you disagree. Let me explain. POJA is temporary veto while a topic is being actively negotiated. Dr. Harley gives a great example, that he doesn't like making a big deal of birthdays, while his wife does. They had no birthday parties for 3 years until they found the win-win. 3 years of birthdays in a small price to pay for a lifetime of happiness, IMO. What do you think?

But you can see how some topics, not all or even many topics, are not open to negotiation for some people, they are boundary issues. Like exclusivity of SF between the two spouses.

Very good post, I had not thought of it in those terms. I guess I should apologize for jacking this thread, from porn to POJA.

Like anything else, this works when both people are mature and caring. LBs will blow a POJA apart.

I think the key here is *temporary* and *actively negotiated*. As long as two people are truly attempting to work out a solution, then the vetoed spouse should be able to live with it. Once again, both have to be mature and caring.

If the vetoing spouse is not negotiating, however, the POJA will fall apart as well.

In your example, I think that three years of active negotiations would wear me out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

You are correct as well in saying that there are some things that are boundaries, not topics for negotiation. I think one would have to choose those areas wisely however, or you might find yourself in Plan A forever. IMO, porn does not rise to the level of infidelity, or physical abuse. Others may see it differently.

Lastly, don't you think that even if somethings are a boundary, the offending spouse should be given an opportunity to repair the problem? Maybe not in cases of physical abuse (strong boundary for me), but in other cases, saying this way or you're out could result in a lot of divorces.

Call me naive, but I think you can look at porn without being addicted, drink without being a drunk, enjoy a hobby without being obsessed.
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and so do I...because that is how I look at it.
My H, like many H's was a different story......and it wasn't just porn......he justified his lust as "just being a guy" which justified him lusting after, fantasizing about and masturbating to anyone that struck his fancy......all the while keeping me, his wife at a safe emotional distance.....he didn't want to get TOO close to me...didn't want to let me see his vulnerable side......and he justified his porn etc. as something all men do to avoid emotional connection.

One topic for women to discuss when talking about porn with their DHs is that it is a sign that DH is spending too much time with porn if he starts finding himself negatively comparing his wife's body/sexual style to the women in porn -- even if he doesn't say a word, even if it is only in his head, he needs a break. Maybe a long one. Because porn is fantasy, not the real world.

In the end, I believe that the majority of men look at porn. If you can get to a place where your DH can be O&H with you about it, at least then you will know how far it goes. If you say, "Don't look at it!" and shut him out, he'll probably go underground with it.

This is a big deal for some women, and I completely understand -- because personally, I cannot stand being with a man that goes to topless bars or strip clubs. I wouldn't date a man like that, let alone marry one. So I can completely understand why some women find porn highly offensive.
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You make some very good points.
To me...all of this 'stuff' should be out int he open before marriage......a man should not marry thinking he is entitled to porn/strippers etc. to fantasize about on the side unless he has cleared that w/ the woman he intends to marry.

How about if everyone on this thread head over to Resolving Conflict and help out Doom on the thread Help!

porn in MY marriage is unacceptable. period. we have had issues with it- serious ones.... but are working thru it...

What is the issue? Can you elaborate?

Hi cat,

I know you were not asking me to elaborate but I felt compelled to answer because our MCs and a couple of ICs have told my H and I that porn should have NO place in OUR marriage...
because it does have the power to pull MY H away from me and the relationship.
I told MC that I think porn CAN be used in healthy way in marriages and he kinda laughed at me....he believes that it's very rare and that "WE" are not one of those rare couples who can incorporate it into our lives in an honest, open and healthy way.

Thanks, nia. I completely understand that part. I get how bad it can be. It's hard for me, because in our case, it actually helps a little, as strange as that sounds. I'm very inhibited, FOO and all. My H isn't interested in anything/anyone but me. Which is great. But that means that he would like SF every day of the week, and I don't. And when we do, I have found that having it around (video) can sometimes get me to open up and make the event more fulfilling for him. Don't know why, it's just how it works for us. So of course, he's thrilled, LOL. I had a hard time visiting the stores with him to 'pick something out' at first, but I've gotten over that for the most part, just more of that FOO shame-based rearing. We go about once a year. But as odd as it sounds, it's actually given us something to bond over, which is really rare in our relationship.

I know this sounds trite for those who do have trouble with it in their M, but I truly think that it's not about the porn, it's about the puzzle pieces of the couple's R. Very complicated stuff, as in whether a man feels entitlement; whether he feels he's caving or changing to fit a mold (resentment); whether he's really comparing or the woman is just afraid he's comparing; whether the couple has complete O&H about everything; whether one of them lies; FOO issues that one has, that the other hadn't planned on; and, of course, the possibility of addiction or abandoning the true marital relationship in favor of...whatever.

I'm sure if my H was a different person, who flirted and considered affairs and made me doubt he wanted me, I'd be singing another tune. LOL, that's the only thing, well at least the main thing I have going for me in my M - that he wants only me. I'm sure if it made me doubt that or if he was the kind of person who wanted to go in the bathroom and do stuff, I'd be upset, too.

I know this sounds trite for those who do have trouble with it in their M, but I truly think that it's not about the porn, it's about the puzzle pieces of the couple's R. Very complicated stuff
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Doesn't sound trite to me....I completely agree w/ you and I think my MC and ICs would too.
I think it's pretty cool that you and H can be so honest/open about porn/sex and that you feel so safe and confident about his sexual commitment to you....I imagine that is how my H felt about me...LOL

The idea of sharing porn/sex toys etc. always appealed to me....for my H it was something separate from me.....not to be shared w/ me....so, obviously, it is not good for our relationship.

I'm sure if my H was a different person......,I'd be upset, too. I can understand that totally. Problem is my ex was different. He was actually an addict, and Dr. H advised me, under the circumstances,(sounds like a relationship headed for abuse and control) to get away from him. I wasn't inhibited in anyway, but the more we did, the more he wanted. Nothing was ever enough. One week he'd be, "WOW! your the best I've ever had! and then mysteriously, a week later - it just wasn't good enough. The only things I said no to was what hurt physically - anal sex isn't for me; and having a second man in on it - NO WAY!! That just made his porn sites (and sex with him) turn repulsive to me. Hope you all can understand that.

I certainly don't want a relationship with very little sex, my drive is pretty high, but I can't deal with things like that.

Yes... but not at the moment... Just checking in ATM... H had surgery earlier this (late) afternoon, and am trying to be sure he is allright thru out the night. Taking care of him, ya' know? I posted several times- under "4myself", look up those posts (?) maybe a little insight... I will explain more and get into our "issues" soon as I have a chance to spend a little more than 5 minutes on the PC... LOL!

Well..this is kinda a long story...so maybe I will post it in "parts"...porn - with masturbation is totally bad for me... Ex-H was very sick & twisted and VERY ADDICTED to porn....

Part 1: while my H and I were in the earliest stages of our R--the talking & getting to know each other- even before we began dating; I asked his opinion on porn- his response was " don't need it, don't use it/care for it". period. I told him MY POV- I strongly despise it, in any way, because of past history/bad experiences. H (then BF) assured me it would never be an issue.

Part 2: as we were moving in together, He tells me that as I/we are unpacking - that there are some porn mags in a box somewhere in amonsgt his things- if I come accross them, he tells me, just throw it away... as it was long time ago- during his ""single"" days. OK- No problem... found them, never even looked at dates or anything on mags- just pitched-along with a few videos....I had no problem with this- I knew about it in advance. He did not lie to me.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> continued....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />part 3: LI-BF (live in BF) spends alot of his free time on the PC, internet... is careful to quickly switch away from certain screens when I happen to walk into room... I know many of them were the trashy "Myspace" girlie ads.... but he was looking none the less- and quickly "clicked away" from them as soon as I was near...often times not quite quick enough to prevent me from seeing some of it- w/o his realizing. I was certainly "concerned"...but tried to keep an open mind and be trusting. He had not given me any real reason to suspect any infidelity/etc. I finally expressed to him my distaste for such- and he said he didn't know how to keep it filtered out- so I showed him. things got better, in that arena anyway.

Part 4: still our frequency of SF was very low...and it seemed like I was always the initiator- except rare times he would initiate- usually after getting up to go to the bathroom...and would come back into bed already rock-hard and often with a bit of massage oil or other lube already applied... (so I know he was MB-ing) just to roll me over onto my stomach and quickly finish off... Other times I knew he was simply in the BR too long- and with the sink water running.... then sometimes would come out and cuddle with me from behind- always in a position where I could not touch his genitals.... and when I would try to initiate- he'd turn away and say he didn't want to.....(duh- because he already had- just by himself) I felt SO neglected and unfulfilled... as I myself have a very high drive and desire for making love/having SF with my man.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Part 5: We talked about how things were- and he said sometimes he didn't want to wake me or bother me to have SF...So I told him-- "ALWAYS check with me first- I love SF with you- I would much rather have you make love to me!" also told him "sad thing is--sometimes while YOU are in the Br MB-ing to keep from bothering me- I end up lying alone in bed MB-ing myself because I don't think you want me---what's wrong with this picture???" Things really did get better from there for the most part....then comes--------

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Part 6: He was at work one Saturday and I was doing laundry- looked thru his duffle bag that he usually carries to work with him to see if there's any dirty laundry.....and I found three or four NEW porn mags... I WAS PISSED AND VERY HURT! I confronted him with it- very angrily, and he made every excuse there was-- some of the guys at work gave it to him,,,he'd bought one while out of town working (for 4 or 5 days) stating he just needed "ENTERTAINMENT"... ARRRGH! (porn with MB-ing IS NOT entertainment! IMO) We had quite a fight- emotional and verbal with him getting mad and driving of for awhile..... again- after we'd both cooled down- we tried to talk about it- I was most upset that he had LIED to me about his use/need fro porn- and hid it from me.... things again got a little better for awhile.
Our SF was great -then gradually tapered off again. I tried to keep in mind his long work hours/stress/etc.....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />Part 7: Well, we were doing really good, and I finally decided to marry him-- he had shown me no other disrespects in any way- and we genuinely felt a very deep love fro one another.. he had asked me to marry him several times over the past 8-9 monthes and I had refused- I wasn't ready. and he was patient and kind about it. We had a quiet private ceremony and a wonderful wedding nad (short) 2 day honey moon.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Part 8: Well, then right after our wedding, we went thru alot- had to move, he got hurt and had to have surgery.....
He got very depressed and moody--but I stood by him reassuring him all the time that I was there for him and always would be... He got really distant and I was scared as ****** for a litle while...but we made it thru. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Part 9: He goes back to work... things are going pretty good.... SF still is not daily- but is at least 3-4 times week.... so we're doing okay right?

Part 10; I am looking for a blank CD to transfer some pix to for our Xmas cards to go have them printed.... I find a CD full of PORN! obviously downloaded(pix and short vids)- from the internet. They looked to be fairly old...and the box they came out of was his from pre- us, and had been mixe3d in with many of my own disks, and this particular disk was unlabeled... I looked at every image there. I did not like any of what I saw. I was upset, and figured out why he was always so interested in one certain "position" and type of IC.... I was crushed. I felt degraded, used...because I had trusted him and loved him enough to allow us to frequently go with that particular "position"-- and had even begun to like it myself some, too. Shattered, though. The thoughts of it repulsed me anymore. HOWEVER-- I didn't say a word to him- I just erased the disk and reused it for my family xmas card pix. I figured it was just a "leftover" he'd forgotten about being there, and let it go. Later when he came home- he could tell I was upset over something- I tried real hard to chalk it up to nothing, and then told him it wasn't important, so we didn't need to discuss it. But he continued to (gently) prod me about what was bugging me.He finally askedme point blank if it was something HE did...so I had to tell him. I told him I erased it and tried to just let it go- but that it was still bugging me a little..... He admitted it was his, an old one and he had no idea that it was even still in existence. I believed him... He was very sincere, and was very gently attentive to me the rest of the night, making love and holding me. I began to feel better, especially in that I had not blown up at him like before... and I also asked him point blank-if this was something that was an ongoing thing- his use of internet porn-- and he fully denied it. I asked him if I should be concerned with it, he reassured me not. I still felt uneasy...but gave the benefit of the doubt and tried to accept his sincerity and get over my own fears and mistrusts from my EX's days of abusive porn use.....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Part 11: A month or less even, I run out for a short errand one Saturday PM, he didn't wanna go, he had been sick ( had the flu) was getting over it, had refused SF earlier that day "because he didn't feel good".... ok. I came home alot quicker than he anticipated (I'd forgotten something) and walked in on him in front of the computer- watching a porn video and masturbating. I WAS ANGRY AS THE DEVIL! AND HURT- I ran out and into the other room- he followed trying to apologize and hold me- I refused to let him touch me.. I WAS SO HURT!!! -MAINLY BECAUSE HE HAD LIED TO ME... [color:"red"] [/color] and we had a VERY long very intense discussion on the subject once I got to where I could talk to him without being so angry..... I explained to him just exactly- in detail- that I had been thru with my EX-H regarding his addictive and abusive use of porn, and how he'd hurt me with it so badly and so many times. ( I never wanted to have recount any of the instances with my X...) but here- I had no choice. I also told him that MB-g with porn was (at least to me) a form of cheating! He was being unfaithful to me, to us- to our marriage by MB-g with porn- because HE WAS READILY ALLOWING AND USING SOMEONE ELSE- ANOTHER WOMAN- TO GET HIM TURNED ON AND SATISFIED SEXUALLY, NO MATTER THAT IT WAS PICTURES OR VIDEO-IT WAS STILL CHEATING AND INFIDELITY AND IT HURT ME GREATLY. I reminded him of his ex-w cheating on him- and how he felt--- made him look at things a little differently... I guess I really hit a nerve with that one, when I used his own words..."once a cheat-always a cheat"....as that is what he said about his ex.... and how he felt, violated, shattered... He said he's never thought of it that way.... but could see my point and that the last thing in the world he ever wanted to do is hurt me... He admitted that he was "weak" and gave in to the lure... I quickly informed him that he had better buck it up fast and find the strength to stay away from it for good- or he would lose me forever. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> He promised to give it up- I asked him if he loved me enough to give it up- and he promised he would... I also demanded ALL of his computer passwords and full access to all files, etc. He gave them to me readily.
We've come a long way since then--although its only been 3 monthes..... but I think he is being true to his word...
I have periodically been checking up on his computer usage......and found nothing. (Thank God and then some...)
I have even asked him point blank if he was "using" again, or any more, and he has said no...I asked him if he would tell me if he did, and he said yes. I told him that the fact that HE HAD LIED to me about it earlier hurt so much worse than the action itself. I stick to that. Especially since HE himself claims to hate a liar more than anything in the world...except maybe a cheat. When he figured out that HE was being just what HE despised most, I think it hit home a little more. He hasn't given any further indication in any way of relapse.... and the biggest problem now- <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> is how I deal with it... I still can't feel like I trust him to be alone with the computer....etc. I am constantly in fear that he will revert to the porn- that he will choose it over me...that I am not what he really wants in a woman-- almost 100% of the women in his porn were very slim, BLONDE and HOT...with flat stomachs and no stretch marks from pregnacy...and no drooping breasts from breast feeding 3 kids.... I feel like I am always being compared to them in his mind, and that I can never live up to any of the standards that they "set" for looks or sex..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> and it hurts my self esteem so much. It makes me question my womanhood, my ability to satisfy my own husband... and I often feel as if he is not making love to me- but to any of them in his mind when we are having sex....and it breaks my heart <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />..... so many of the things we did in bed-- I (naively) thought were special to just US, but obviously not. And believe me- I am not exactly a bad catch, either...
I get plenty of compliments from other men, and asked out , too..... So where is it with my own husband???? He rarely compliments me on my looks, and is not very sexual in advances towards me- other than in bed... and he never TELLS me that he finds me attractive, or that he wants to make love to me, and very rarely ever initiates any sexual play-
like coming up and wrapping his arms around me- patting me on the rear-end, sneaking a feel of my breasts... things that I like--- and that make me feel DESIRABLE, WANTED....

Well.... I guess I have made this a long enough series of posts..... but I really needed to get all this out...and HOPEFULLY get some feedback from all ya'll out there.....

Thanks for listening (er- reading) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />