2k that personally, huh? Like the old joke says, "If the foo sh!ts, wear it!"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

2long...go find another thread to spread your brand of humor.

I think hope creates as many "doormats" as fear does.

I think you are right ...But..Hope can be tempered with reality. I can hope something works out for the best while still maintaining self respect and dignity. But I do see your point.

Rprryne,

Great point! I agree, I had great "hope" every single day that my DW was going to realize how horribly she had hurt me. It wasn't until I finally took a stand for myself that it finally happened.

W2S

i agree with you as most usual medc.

sometimes i think you are one of the few on here who "gets it" and who is realistic.

my marriage didn't work out, i got damn mad about his actions, as i should!

i could say more but i will leave it at that.

mlhb

I think a good book to read regarding this very topic is 'Love Must Be Tough' which suggests this very principle. You must maintain self respect in the face of such an event. However, most I'm afraid, myself included, when faced with such a tragedy as an A, begin to panic and lose control. I wish I had read the aforementioned book before things hit the fan. Or, at least read it very soon after the A discoverd.

oh for pitty's sake

Not everyone gets the opportunities in life to develop 'a spine' before they find themselves hit by infidelity.

Betrayal exposes the betrayed in the most cruel way - exposes their lack of assertiveness, their dependence on a partner for basic self-esteem, their unsureness of their own worth, their fear that they are are unloveable.

I don't think anyone sets out to develop those character features. Most of us have done the best we can with what we've been given, and some of us have grown up in circumstances that didn't allow us to develop much toughness.

Even the toughest of us are floored by infidelity. Each of us has had a journey to make to get strong enough to deal with the horror. Some of us will have a much longer, harder journey than others.

Some will never build up the courage to make the journey - which is deeply sad. And some will take a lot of time to work up the guts to start out.

It seems to me that people in this state of fear need to be encouraged to believe that they have worth, that they have the strength to fight, and that the self-respect they'll gain is worth more than the 'love' they fear losing.

There's a fine line between gentle support of the fearful, and enabling that fear. There's also a fine line between 'robust' encouragement and sadism.

TA

And by doing it with grace, dignity, and self-respect you gain an understanding of how truly worthy you are and can move forward in life as a person who is recovering from a horrible time in their life.

I'm not there yet, but my self-respect is awakened and I am one grateful person to those on here who gave me encouragement when I NEVER believed I could do something or even deserved to do something.

This was very well stated, TA.

QNL:


And when you've recovered from the horrible experience of infidelity - whether you did it with your spouse or not - you'll be shocked when you realize that it isn't horrible at all. (italics on "present tense" intentional).

The greatest relief I feel now is due 2 my ability, finally, 2 not be hurt by the thoughtless, selfish, or just plain s2pid acts of others. Those aren't about me.

-ol' 2long:

P.S. medc, ever hear the one about... ?

# 1

I do not think getting angry is exactly equivilent to having a spine - to me developing a plan is what it is all about

a person can be angry as all get out and still NOT have a plan - so their anger is pointless

a person can be really angry and use their anger to develop a plan


#2

anger IS useful during the early stages of discovery - however once the affair is over - anger is an obsticle to recovery & must be handled with care

and sometimes - the anger is delayed - there is just too much shock

women tend to get depressed when they are angry
men tend to act out physically

but everyone has their unique anger fingerprint

MEDC,

I agree with you 100%. I have seen those who have been in Plan A for over a year and then just can't seem to move to plan B, and if they do, it isn't really a plan B at all.

I don't know if it is fear of losing what they fail to realize they don't even have any more or something else.

For me, I would never have been able to settle for the crumbs left over after FWH gave the cake to OW, but that is just me.

I suspect that if the A had still been ongoing on d-day and I had actually had to work thru plan A and B to end the affair, I would have just divorced him and let the OW have him.

The best lesson here might be simply if you are willing to settle for crumbs, it might be all you are going to get. Those BS who do set some boundaries and maintain their own self esteem do seem to have better luck in recovering their marriages.

But then, I think that WS who watch their BS beg plead and put up with so much don't really respect them any more. And how do you regain love for someone you view as weak, someone you don't respect.

Who

I've struggled with this myself. When my H said he quit on our M, I had no self-respect whatsoever. I was a groveler, I am sad to say. I had to rebuild myself from the ground up. I still have a hard time understanding the difference between self-respect and self-esteem, but I am working on it.

Here are some great quotes for those struggling like me.
http://www.quotegarden.com/self-respect.html

No matter how anyone's sitch unfolds or whether they are in Plan A or Plan B, there is no fighting human nature. Noone wants someone who clings to them and begs and pleads for them to stay. I always use the analogy of the high school boyfriend/girlfriend that broke up with you. You spend a while begging, pleading, crying, calling, etc...only to be looked at like a pathetic loser. But, the second you pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and start going out with your friends...he/she wants you BACK!

People are drawn to others with self-confidence and self-worth...they are turned OFF by weak, needy people. That is HUMAN NATURE...there is no getting around those facts of life.

With that said, the need for Plan A is obvious, to demonstrate that "Hey, I realize this M could have been better, I have a plan to make it that way in the future. I am willing to do my part to ensure our future happiness, but an M is for two people, not three." There HAS to be a carrot AND a stick. Plan A can STILL be done with confidence and self-worth.

But there has to be a time limit!! The Harleys just shortened the time frame for Plan A because they realized people are staying in it TOO LONG, which affects their health (mentally and physically) and lessens the chance of recovery when/if the WS DOES come back to the M.

I also believe most of the doormat situations here are based in fear. Some of that fear IS based in fact...men get a bad deal in court over custody and such, and really have to look at life as being a part-tme dad very seriously. Fortunately, because of people like MEDC, things are changing.

But it really still boils down to- how important is your happiness? Do you believe in the basic principle that if you are miserable, you will be unable to make anyone else happy, either, including your children? Once that self-worth is established, things almost ALWAYS start to turn for the better!!

Anger has it's place in very specific circumstances. Anger helps me on the soccer field, it hurts me on the golf course. I relate relationships much more to the golf course, need to be under control and focused on the task at hand. Anger can help because it's good to get the blood pumping and adrenelin going which is good for soccer, but that's not how I want to react in my personal relationships.

It's all about having self respect and a sense of self worth, these are what develop your "spine", not anger.

Wasn't it Bob Pure who asked "What would you do if you weren't afraid?"

Anger is not the same as having a spine. BUT, we should be angry at injustice and our spine allows us to act.

a person can have the best PLAN in the world and fail to act on it because of a lack of a spine. There are people on this site that have used a plan...and they have no spine. A plan without a spine or self esteem is worthless.

I have also seen more women react physically when they are angry. Men get the rap for this because they can usually do more damage...but I would bet that a lot more men have been hit by their wives than wives hit by their husbands. And I say this based on professional and personal experience.

A agree very much with this comment from WhoMe

"The best lesson here might be simply if you are willing to settle for crumbs, it might be all you are going to get. Those BS who do set some boundaries and maintain their own self esteem do seem to have better luck in recovering their marriages."

I didn't get angry until I caught a full broadside.

It was then too late.

This is an issue ive been struggling with the past couple of weeks. My DD was 12/20 my WW has continued her affair since then. Ive done a lot of exposure and have been working plan A. -Feels like im begining to see some small results from my self imporvment. She is talking with me more and eating meals with me. But the affair continues. About 3 weeks ago she said she was planning to move out but needs time to save to do so. I really dont think she has done anything about moving out and may be settling into the life of a cake eater.

Im begining to feel its line in the sand time for me. meaning "if you continue this affair you need to be out of this house". 2 main problems with this. It goes counter to everything I just learned about plan A. I feel like I would be quitting plan A to soon. i thought 6 months was about right for men. Second problem, although i may say she needs to be out of the house I cant make her go, and I will not leave my kids.

I suppose my option would be to provide the $$ she needs to move out. But I dont want to finance this thing.

Yes i want to stand up for my self. But I also see the need for plan A to show my wife I can be more like the spouse she wants and our marriage can be the marriage she wants.

I suppose the question is how long should plan A last? im thinking I need to stick with it for another month anyway.