TA, I certaintly hope you aren't just referring to me because I can assure you, throughout this past 1 1/2 years of disclosures, lies, and lack of recovery needs being met, I DID stuff my anger a TON. I also tried to meet my H's needs when I didn't want to. Even doing that, he still lied and didn't give a hoot about my recovery needs.

I spent a lifetime stuffing my anger.

It spilled out everywhere else - inappropriately.

As a childhood victim of rape and also of child abuse, I was an angry young person.

I can talk about anger, because anger was a part of my "being".

It used to be a thing for me that came up like a stream of volcanic lava, bursting forth about the simplest things - losing a pen, having a hard time opening a jar, my H putting the laundry basket in the wrong place.

It was probably one of the more difficult aspects of my own personality that I had to change. I did it because I had to, for my own sense of sanity and self. I'm a much more productive and happy person, with that lava flow extinguished and no longer at my beck and call.

I don't believe that Plan A calls for "stuffing" anger. I do believe it calls for approaching the marital conflicts in a different manner - and that this is often missed by many who are in Plan A. Hence, the "doormat effect".

Maybe when the "vets" recognize someone skipping merrily down this ill-fated path, they should redirect them. JMHO.


On another point - I saw Brooke's thread where the BH got into a fight. I didn't comment about that, because the support is going to the WS in this case, and I didn't want the direction of my post or the thread to go along that line. Of course the physical violence her husband engaged in wasn't acceptable. It also wasn't acceptable that I hit my husband in the leg when I found out about his affair. But it does happen, it is the reality of many d-days. The fact that I didn't comment on the fist fight didn't mean I condoned it - it just meant I didn't want to go that direction with Brooke right now. Her problems at this juncture are so numerous, that to deal with what her BS is doing outside of her control, add to the drama, etc., I didn't see as pragmatic/helpful. My post to her went toward just helping or advising what IMO she needs to do to take action on regarding the next steps in saving her marriage, if that will even be possible.


MEDC - great thread. And I do agree with you!

SB

Being a target of this thread, and the one who supposedly 'got it' and then ended up sharing a laugh and talking laundry with the WW I think I owe a response here.

I agree, self respect and a backbone was very slow in coming for me, I spent quite a few months still leveled by the hurt and resentment and self-righteousness many BS's experience shortly after discovery.

I took the path to kindness and consistency of goodness in trying to reach my wayward spouse and show her that things could still be good at home.

No.. it didn't work.

Of course, I think many here would agree that nothing I said or did would make any difference to my WW.

That being said, I don't feel that it's going to do my DS any good to have me swinging a sword of righteousness at my wife and being angry about the situation.

It's been six months.. acting from anger isn't going to get me anywhere. Acting with determination and a purpose on the other hand just might. I'm taking that path, but not talking much about it here on the boards for mostly strategic reasons.

As for my feelings on anger.. I would direct those interested in the reasons why I have taken the approach I have to Psalms 37 and particularly verses 8 and 9.

I believe that while my anger at the situation would be justified certainly, what would it accomplish other than to increase the suffering of my wife and children?

I believe one can have a backbone, and strength, and continue to be loving even towards those who hurt us, and that shows the true strength and character of one who seeks to follow the Lord in all of their ways.

It may not recover my marriage, but I choose to continue to live my life in the way I believe I have been led. While I am no longer persuing my WW, and am getting on with my own life, part of that 'letting go' is to also let go of the anger and unforgiveness, and give our spouses completely to God, who is the only one who can have influence on them to change their ways. Whether WW comes home or not isn't my worry any longer. I will live my life to the fullest without her if that is what is in store for me. I will never give up on my children or the fight for my son in particular.

There are those, and perhaps even my WW who will mistake my kindness and loving nature for weakness or 'doormat' behavior. To those, I would ask that you search your hearts and see whether or not the hardness lies with you.

All in my prayers,
J

Self respect and anger originate from completely different parts of the brain. Self respect is product of your logical, creative, spiritual, and analytical brain....the neocortex. Anger is rooted in your limbic system....your dog brain. While you are angry, is not the time to make plans....in fact....you're not capable of making plans (or building self respect) from that part of the brain. You are capable of fight or flight. Decades of research support this fact.

That doesn't mean anger is all bad. We need anger, fear, jealousy etc to signal threats and protect ourselves. But to solve problems we must get beyond fight or flight. Once you detach from the anger, and move into your logical brain where you can form plans....you can analyze what you need to do from a much stronger position.

Sf...I do not feel you are correct. Not all anger is uncontrollable. Much of it is very useful and does not result in the "fight or flight" response. Rage does...not all anger does.

Anger is emotional. What you do with it is rational or logical. Think of it in a different context. You are late for work and some idiot cuts you off on the highway causing you to swerve. You are angry, no? What you do with it is something else altogether. You might honk your horn. You might drive up his tail flashing your lights. You might just chalk it up to idiots on the road and do nothing and just complain about it to your coworkers. Or you might pull up along side him and blow him away with a gun. All of these actions are expressions of of the same emotion, anger. Not all are appropriate. None of them have a thing to do with whether or not you have a backbone.

medc,

Where did I say anger was uncontrollable? Or that there is no difference between anger and rage? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I said we need anger. In fact, anger can actually help people make better decisions. A recently published study links anger to good decision making. Anger can be very motivating.

http://www.livescience.com/health/070611_anger_rational.html

However, while good decision making may be a part exhibiting self respect.....self respect is more about core value which develops from a different process. You're linking anger and self respect and while anger might/could play a part in developing self respect (by motivating someone)....it isn't necessary for developing self respect or making healthy changes. For instance....I have alot of self respect and a very strong backbone....and it's not about anger at all. It's about the value I feel for myself....not the anger I feel for others.

SF, this latest post seems to contradict some things you wrote in your last post. Perhaps I am just misunderstanding you.

MEDC,

I would appear from reading through this entire thread that those BS who "got it", still "get it", and those that didn't "get it", still don't.

While this is a worthwhile topic, after reading through the responses, I'm not sure it will accomplish much. I understand fully what you were trying to convey, but I doubt that others ever will ... what you are saying just goes against their basic human nature, and that is starting to come through loud and clear. Considering this, I will likely avoid posting to the weakest of BH's in the future, as it is becoming obvious that they just will not respond to my style.

I get more satisfaction anyway out of posting to those BH's who are willing to stand up for themselves. Unfortunately, the rest will likely wind up settling for crumbs from their WW's, but they appear content with that. No matter how much we would like to instill a sense of pride and self respect into a BH, you just can't make chicken salad out of chicken s#$& !!!

I think you are right Myrev.

MyRev, are you sure you aren't just MEDC posting under another name? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

you caught me! OK myrev...back in your cage! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

starfish, this is an excellent resource. Your article was linked to another article titled: Anger is Good For You

Here are some key excerpts:

*People who respond to stressful situations with short-term anger or indignation have a sense of control and optimism that lacks in those who respond with fear.

[Mels' note, this is exactly the result we see in folks who take action versus those who are paralyzed with fear. Once the person moves beyond the fear, the transformation is amazing. As BobPure said, he went from a "serf to a KNIGHT." His whole demeanor changed and he ended up saving his marriage]

*The researchers also recorded people's blood pressure, pulse and secretion of a high-stress hormone called cortisol, which can be measured in the saliva and collected with a cotton swab. The people whose faces showed more fear during the had higher blood pressure and higher levels of the hormone. The findings were the same for men and women.

*So in maddening situations in which anger or indignation are justified, anger is not a bad idea, the thinking goes. In fact, it's adaptive, Lerner says, and it's a healthier response than fear.

http://www.livescience.com/health/051103_anger.html

And *I* think this thread is silly.

But I did love Jamesus' post. You don't need 2 defend yourself Jamesus.

-ol' 2long

MyRev:

I'm going to direct this post at you because I do think you are a valuable voice here, but there are some things that I don't quite understand.

Why do you base the "gift" of your advice on the recipients willingness to follow it? Why do you get so upset when someone disagrees with you or doesn't follow your advice? I have seen many times where you flat out tell a BS that since they don't heed your advice that you won't post to them anymore (and then you invariably do!). What good does that do? That doesn't help the BS, and I don't see how it helps you.

It is almost as if you your motivation sometimes is not truly to HELP, but to be RIGHT, and to WIN (win what?). I share your frustration with some people and some attitudes to some degree, but them not following advice doesn't make me MAD at them. Thier situation isn't really about ME, or you. Its about them.

The problem here is not that there are two separate and distinct types of BS, or FBS, or recovered people, or whatever, strong ones and weak ones. That just isn't true in any useful sense. Everyone has a bit of all that rolled up in them, everyone is different, and there is simply no way to prescribe a uniform, one size fits all approach to infidelity.

Why is there this seeming drive to polarize things? The world isn't black and white, there is no "us against them" going on here. There is just "us" helping "them" so they can become "us".

Anger is useful only because it may be flagging up the fact that our boundaries have been violated. (Anger also results when we are frustrated, and that's not always a violation of our personal boundaries.)

Recognising that our boundaries have been encroached on allows us to do something to defend ourselves.

The feeling of anger is spontaneous - we don't will it into existence. If we don't have clear boundaries, we won't feel the anger.

Anger isn't a badge of character, therefore, just an indication that we have boundaries and a sense of our right to defend them.

It also isn't necessary to keep yourself in sustained state of anger in order to act. It is easier to keep yourself up for the fight if you keep reminding yourself of the insult and renewing that surge of anger, but for most of us there's a danger of getting locked into that state and not being able to stop being angry even when we've enforced the boundary. Acknowledging the anger, defining the violation, and acting - without maintaining yourself in a state of emotional ferment - is healthier in the long run.

That's hard to do; it's much easier for most of us just to stay angry. But we pay a price.

TA

I'm sorry if I've been confusing.....let me be more brief:

*Anger originates in our limbic system.
*It's a valuable/necessary emotion and not always the "bad guy".
*It can motivate better decisions.
*But those decisions are made once you process the anger...and they occur in a different part of the brain.
*But anger is not neccesary to "get it", or to have self respect.

Mel,


When people are "threatened"....they feel anger or fear. Anger is a much more productive emotion....but the definitive phrase is "short term". Hanging onto anger....is not productive at all. People who respect and value themselves tend to feel less fear and more anger when they are threatened. But people who respect and value themselves don't get stuck in anger....they use it as motivation to make good decisions and get past the feelings of "threat".

So yeah....when someone treats you badly, betrays you, hurts you....it's a much healthier sign to be angry. But don't stay angry....use the anger positively because studies show that long term anger creates real health risks:

* hypertension (high blood pressure)
* increased cholesterol levels
* damaged or blocked arteries
* aggravated heart disease
* increased susceptibility to infection, due to a depressed immune system
* longer time to recover from major traumas to the body such as operations or accidents

Good stuff!

Tyk,

You ask some great questions, and some that I have been contemplating myself recently ... especially "why do I continue to come here?", and "what do I accomplish by spending my time here?". At this point, I still don't have a good answer to these.

I realize that my posting style has become increasingly hostile lately, and that coincides with a general darkening in my overall mood. There are some random (and sometimes conflicting) thoughts bumping around inside of my head that I'm trying to understand.

1. I am still holding on to a huge amount of unresolved anger over my FWW's (FogFree) A. I am proud of the decisive action I took with OM on D-Day and basically removed him from the picture permanently ... although I still struggle with the fact that I let him off the hook by never exposing to his W. (This was pre-MB knowledge of such things)

Also, I've been having negative thoughts regarding FogFree's "ownership" of her A. I made her a promise on D-Day that I wouldn't expose to her mother, who is the most influential person in her life, as long as she maintained NC, but then I didn't expose when FogFree attempted to break NC twice right after D-Day and hid those attempts from me (even setting up a new Affair hotmail account) for over a month ... until she confessed to the 1st attempt and I discovered the 2nd through further snooping. There are also other people in our lives, who have no knowledge of the A and have witnessed some strange behavior from us post D-Day, who probably think I've lost my mind and FogFree promised she would talk to them and tell them what was going on, but she hasn't stepped up to take any of the responsibility for these people's mistaken opinions of me/us.

I've thought recently that possibly I've let my personal frustrations over our broken boundaries infect my postings to others going through the same things ... and if that is the case, then I need to go to a few BH's and apologize for my hypocrisy.

2. After you have read numerous posts from some people about their most intimate thoughts, you gain a certain insight into that persons personality, and quite frankly, I simply don't like many of the veteran posters here. I have no desire to meet them, or share a drink with them, so why do I waste my time here, getting angry over something they've posted that in no way affects me??? (There are also a handful of posters that I really like and would like to meet, but they are definately the minority.)

So why do I come around a place with so many personalities that just rub me the wrong way??? Possibly you are correct in your assesment that I want to "win" rather than help when it comes to these individuals. It is definately worthy of further introspection.

3. I really support most of the underlying MB principles. I don't agree with everything, but probably over 90% of it. However, I don't agree at all with many of the long time posters weak intrepretations of these principles, which causes further conflict for me continuing to participate here.

In conclusion, I understand what you are saying, and also realize that with that knowledge, I should probably just "shut up", and/or take a leave of absence from the MB forums, which is probably what I will do, while I work through my own anger issues right now.

Thanks, Tyk ... you probably don't realize it, but your post may have been just what I needed to take a big step back and reevaluate our own recovery progress, along with my continued involvement here.

James
you have contacted the harley's and are working a program..you are doing good
this forum deals with an intense subject.. so the posts will tend to be intense..you can handle it..
also.. consider that each post is mainly about the POSTER..not the problems...so take that into consideration
when reading "advice"
posters have varying degrees of self awareness.. so many of us dont realize we are using your situation to solve OUR problems...but as a pratciioner of zen.. i say..
your life is YOURS..my brother...so do it YOUR way..i personally applaude your patience with your WW.. I hope you do whaever you do.. to BENEFIT YOU.. to grow YOU..that is the result you can COUNT on..how your WW responds..is really up to her..IF you do GOOD things.. good WILL come to you..BUT it may not be the GOOD you are hoping for..or LOOK like what you want. GOD does it HIS way and in in HIS time
be reassured..that is the REALITY we ALL are in..until we die
jb