And he's about as close to being "Godly" as most of us will ever get, and that he even bothers with this site after the continuing disrespect that he has been hit with, is amazing to me.

It's an honor that a man of his intelligence, wisdom and kindness shares his insights here. What a loss not having him here any more would be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

2long, you might appreciate a quote I read in a book recently -

"Cleverness divides; Intelligence includes"

Thought of you when I read that.

Not odd - I experienced it too.

Bob:

That is so cool. I believe I understand, as I've felt the same for about 6 years now.

-ol' 2long

Josie:

Well, I try 2 stay positive. Obviously I haven't been all that successful of late. Or don't feel like it, much.

At every point, in every interaction, we have choices we can make 2 2rn a bad si2ation in a positive direction - often with no more than a few words. And it all depends on focus.

Thanks,
-ol' 2long

Personally - I prefer it when these conversations focus on ideas/concepts/principles/plans - much more productive.

translated, he's afraid to stand up to her and rather than admit that here...he will blame BK and I for his unwillingness to discuss his life here.

Oh well.

My perception is not that he is "afraid" ... I think his reactive time is glacial

you might be right...I don't see it that way...but, you might be right.

You very likely will never know...

But feel free 2 make unwarranted assumptions.

-ol' 2long

Nope, not odd....quite kewl...Outside of this forum, in the real world, one thing that comes across again and again in successful marriages is the irregularly cyclic 'falling in love/falling out/falling in again'. Often this happens to both spouses, but isn't a big problem unless both are in an 'out-of-love' cycle at the same time.

I think this is indicative of the proposition that being 'in love' is more 'liking' than 'loving'.

OMGosh, MEDC, I am going to disagree with you...

I don't think that unconditional love is unhealthy. I think lack of boundaries is unhealthy.

There are several people I love, and will love, no matter what they do, no matter how they hurt me (my kids for example). BUT that does NOT mean, I will not enforce healthy boundaries....because I love and respect myself, too.

well, although I disagree with you about this...I wasn't talking about children (I can see how they complicate things in this discussion).

Let me give you an example...you are married and in love with TST...he continues of the path that he was on and hurts you beyond measure. You divorce and remarry...IMHO, still loving your ex H is unhealthy to you and your marriage(and I wouldn't want to marry someone that still is in love with their ex).

Hope you are well SMB. Give my best to TST.

Ah, but that's the key!

loving unconditionally is nothing like being "in love."

If I were 2 divorce and remarry, I would still love the mother of my children. I wouldn't be in love with her at all, though (that is, if I 'did it right' and gave myself enough time 2 heal before becoming involved with someone new).

-ol' 2long

As a corollary, the infamous quote "I love you but I'm not in love with you" makes sense in this light, but a wayward saying it doesn't realize why it makes sense (or their fog has them believing it means something else, I suppose).

Because the wayward could also truthfully say 2 the OP, "I'm in love with you but I don't love you" and be making perfect sense.

The fact that they never do say the latter is evidence that they really don't understand the former.

-ol' 2long

Well, at the rate tst was going, my love was certainly barely there.

I always believed I loved him unconditionally...thought he felt that way about me, too...obviously not, or we wouldn't be here would we?

Was my love for my husband dying? Or was my husband dying and I grieved the loss of him and faced the fact that I would have to go on without him? It was more bareable for me think that HE had died, not my love. I have never felt anything but love for the man I married. Was he the same man last year?

This is confusing to me, I will admit.

Recovery is hard, MEDC, even in the best of circumstances. The wounds are so deep. You know that already though. Some days I wonder if the wounds CAN be healed. Right now, I really hurt that I had an unfaithful husband. What he does now can never change that truth. (still love him though...is that unconditional???)

* 2long & heartpain

I am starting to wonder what "love" is. I mean real love.

In ME there is definitely a kind of love that is unconditional. I have it for Squid, I have it for my best friend, I have it for my kids.

I'm not sure I have the vocabulary to define the attributes of that "love" or how it is different from "conditional" love.

Its a feeling of union - like in those people there is an extension of my own being. Even when I don't like them and am apparently getting nothing positive "from" my relationship with them, the "joined" status still exists.

It dictates my behaviour towards them just as my LEG dictates my behaviour towards it, for example.It too is an extension of me whether I like it or not.

Even at my darkest moments I have never fallen beneath that base of care of Squid that I describe here. I have no difficulty " loving her as I love myself" because it is innate.

I need to think more about this: describe it better.

2long- well said. sexymamabear-<heh>! I agree.
I have been thinking- I guess there is a difference between how you might define as unconditional love.

I could divorce someone I loved.

I could "turn away" or say "no!" to a child (a grown one here)
Who is abusing themselves or others and wants my compliance doing so. Does not mean I don't love the Sh*z outa them.

Unconditional does not mean abuse/doormat me.
How can you not feel love for someone you shared, for a time anyway, YEARS of your life with?

I have read pure FIRE coming out of the posts here (off and on) aimed twords ex's and WS- where does that fire come from?
Old love. Still there. Just changed it's moniker.

I believe MB priciples are good (2 year reader- new poster)
but I never confused unconditional love with unconditional willingness to be abused.

Very wierd how people are all over the board on this

I am now going to read Dr. Pettit's book.

I am right there with you SMB. Can you EVER really heal, i don't know.

I've always viewed the term "unconditional love" sort of in conjuction with the "love is a verb."

To me, when you view "love" as the actions you take for a person, as opposed to the feelings you have for them, it becomes clearer that "unconditional love" is not healthy. It's not healthy to do loving things for someone who treats you unlovingly, nor is it healthy for a person to be treated lovingly when they do unloving things.

Another way to look at it, is the concept of the "love bank". Once the "account" is open it never closes. There aren't conditions to keeping it open. However, there are conditions as to the balance of the account, conditions to making deposits and withdrawals. Those balances influence your actions. Your actions influence your feelings, etc.

Really??

2rning the other cheek is unhealthy?

Loving others unconditionally who don't offer the same in re2rn is only unhealthy if you're expecting something in re2rn - which isn't unconditional love at all.

-ol' 2long