H4U,

You don't have to explain or justify anything to me. I wasn't participating in your thread until you referred to my approach in your post ... I think my previous post to you was my first on your thread, and that was just to further explain the approach that I advocate, which you referenced.

Seriously, its your life ... by all means, do what you think is best, and as a fellow BH, I truly wish you the best of luck.

Thanks LaLa, That's what I'm doing, hanging in there during WD.


I guess I don't think I'm being a doormat if I've spent 6 months doing plan A (isn't that the recommended time for a man?), seem to have succeeded in breaking up the A and am now going to give WW the time she needs to get through WD. I mean, we've been married for 23 years next month, I vowed that I would stick with her thru thick and thin (and things are definitely thin now), we have 2 children that need us more than anything, isn't another month or 2 worth giving this a chance? Like LG said to me a few weeks ago, this 6 months I've been dealing with a wayward is about 2% of our marriage. If I'd have gone to plan FU 6 months ago, would we still have the same chance to save our marriage as we do right now? Maybe, maybe not, but WW is still home and our kids still have an intact family. I would just never be able to look myself or the kids in the face again if I hadn't done everything in my power to save this marriage. In a few months if WW still isn't coming around, then we'll go where I don't want to go, but not until I'm sure that I've given US our best shot. Isn't that what marriage vows are all about?

No offence taken MyRev. I just don't feel like the same approach that worked for you (and to that I say a heartfelt Congratulations!) necessarily works for everyone.

One of the things I said to WW the day I found out about the A was "you have to end this thing or we won't have a chance" and she replied "I hate it when you make my decisions for me, I'll decide if and when to end it". And that's my WW. I just feel like if I'd have gone to plan FU at that minute that right now I'd be sitting in court waiting to sign the D papers. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm here 6 months later with the A apparently over and IMHO a better chance at saving my marriage than if I'd have gone plan FU at the beginning. Like I said, maybe I'm wrong and I could have saved myself 6 months of heartache, but SH has told me many times that anytime there is a separation there is a risk.

I think somewhere in the middle lies the truth, guys.

The thing is, it isn't important what you could have done/should have done. I agree with MyRev that some things could have been done differently with a good chance of positive results in your situation H4U, but the truth is, you didn't do them, oftentimes with very good reasons, and your situation is improving and does seem hopeful. So it makes no difference.

The important thing is what are you going to do now and in the future. And whether you like it or not, I suspect MyRev and myself will be here pokin' at ya, giving you an overly aggressive strategy to think about! :P

Thanks TYK. It's not that I don't appreciate the FU approach. I've been wanting to do that for a long time, but I'm also paying SH good money to guide me and he's the expert, so I've been following his advise.

Could I have done some things differently....of course. Was I totally thrown off for a couple months and not thinking clearly....of course.

Anyway...it's all moot at this point. I still have a fighting chance at saving my marriage and I'm 80 lbs less on the infidelity diet!

Hi Hope,

IMO Myrev's message gets lost in the delivery. I sense that you take his opinion as being plan FU or nothing. I didn't interpret it in that way and in my case his comments made me reassess whether I understood what my boundaries where and if they were clearly stated to my FWW. Now I still followed the basic MB principals where I waited for my opening to have this talk (i.e. waited for her to bring up anything about the R or M) but when she did I did make sure that she knew that the door would not be open forever and that I could be happy with or without her. The fact that I exposed to the OM's GF the night before she decided to stay did not come into play because we heard from her about an hour after she had made the decision. Did it help with WD, absolutely. The point I took from MyRev's 2x4 is that it's about standing up for yourself, and it made me do some reassessment of why I was doing this and what I was willing to accept. If you read back, his point is not much different to other opinions and suggestions I got.

You believe that the A is over, but the relevant question is does your WW believe it? What you did up to this point you cannot change or fix, but do you feel comfortable that she knows what your boundaries are? If she doesn't then she can string you along indefinitely.

"I've been wanting to do that for a long time, but I'm also paying SH good money to guide me and he's the expert, so I've been following his advise"

You have been making progress. It appears the affair is ending. Six months is the norm for plan A. Recovery takes two years on average.

It's great that you have the patience to and are able to afford the Harley's. Why spend money and not follow their advice?

Thanks guys, I appreciate the comments.

Got home from the long weekend away and WW was very short and almost nasty with me. I tried to engage her in some conversations and all I got was one word answers, that is if she answered me at all. I guess 4 days at home by yourself while you're in WD (I'm assuming) will make you that way huh? No indications that she was anywhere other than home and no indications that she had a visitor. My friend D said that WW sent her an email on Friday saying she was going to be home alone this weekend, almost like WW was wanting D to call to talk. D decided she wasn't going to do that. Let WW know that all will not be "ok" with their friendship if WW goes through with the divorce stuff she's mentioned.

I guess this means one of two things. She's still in the middle of WD or she's going to file for D. I'll just keep plugging along thinking she's going to file and if it is WD then she would be ~2 weeks into it and she should be getting through the worst part of WD in the next week or so. Hopefully I'll start to see some improvement in her.

Funny thing is she is still talking about things in the future like there's nothing going on. DS's birthday, buying a car for our other DS. That kind of stuff. I can't picture WW thinking we should go into more debt for a car for DS if she's planning on divorce, but who knows what a wayward mind thinks?

Hope,

This is all good news (believe it or not). Time alone can be pretty rough when facing WD. Noone to reach out to, loneliness sets in and it makes you realize just what "being single" will be like. Hang in there, Hope...she will come out of it soon and then you can start working towards recovery. The fact that she is still talking like there is a future is great.

Get "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and read it while she is going through WD. From what others have said (I'm buying it for W2S, too) it will really help you once she does come out of WD.

Thanks LaLa. I appreciate your props!

Just an update. Last night when I got home WW was kind of ok with me. I went to the grocery and by the time I got home she was back to her angry self.

Today WW IM's me and tells me she's going out to dinner tonight. Doesn't say who with or anything, but I don't really care. At least she told me she's going. That's a new development! Of course she could be going to see a lawyer, but I can't control that so I'm just going to take it as a good sign that she thought enough to tell me she was going. The past 3 months she would have not said a word to me but told DS15 and I would have found out from him.

Here's an interesting thing to think about. I just looked at our cell bill from last month and OMW sent WW a couple of TM's the very night WW told me she wanted a divorce. I asked OMW what she was TMing WW for and she said she asked WW if she had been in contact with OM since the beginning of the year. Did WW think I put OMW up to that and that's why she yelled at me about being controlling that night? The timing couldn't have been worse as it was just a few nights earlier that I told WW either end all contact with OM and work on our marriage or we needed to separate. I'm sure WW thought I put OMW up to that. Guess that's more I'll have to deal with....

I'm just hoping that she is in WD and will start to slowly come out of it in the next few weeks. If NC started the weekend I exposed her STD to OMW and OM then she would be 2 1/2 weeks into it now.

My friend D thinks WW won't file for D if I'm not willing to go along with it. She thinks WW doesn't want to look like the "bad guy" to the kids so she won't do it. I'm hoping she's right and we can hang on until she starts making some progress through WD.

Update #2: Just looked at WW's online work calendar and one of the temp's in her dept is leaving so dinner tonight is a going away party for her! More good news.

Haven't posted for a few days as nothing really to say.

Don't know if we're (or should I say I'm?) making some progress. For the last week or so I've been kind of doing a 180 on WW. No relationship talk, no "I love you's", nothing like that. I've been going out once or twice a week by myself kind of to show her I have a life, with our without her. WW hasn't mentioned the big D for almost 3 weeks now. It's also been 3 weeks since NC/end of the A in her mind (I'm assuming based on our conversation about OM etc 3 weeks ago). Is she starting to get through the worst part of WD and starting to respond some? Over the weekend things were ok. Caught WW looking at me a couple of times on Saturday with a different look than the past 3 weeks. There was "something" about the looks that make me think she may be starting to de-fog a bit, but I don't know if it's real or just my imagination.

At one point on Saturday, WW, DS15 and I were watching a movie and DS and WW were talking. DS then said something to WW and she replied, "I just told you". DS says "say it again, I wasn't paying attention". WW then looked at him and said "don't even get me started on that". Is that what this A has been all about? My not paying attention to WW where the serial cheatin OM did (meeting both conversation and attention EN's)? If so, it's as I suspected, in the last couple years I've traveled so much for work, and once we moved to our new location, being so wrapped up in my new position I wasn't there for WW and in swoops the OM and the A is off and running.

Which brings me to my question. And don't hit me with the 2x4's, but how do I show my wife attention/conversation EN's when she won't talk to me much?

And another question. Our 23rd anniversary is Sunday. I'm thinking of getting WW one of those digital picture frames and loading pictures of the kids and her on it (none of me). Would that be good? I don't want to blow it by making her think I'm pulling at her emotional ties to the kids, but again I think it might be a good gift. Any opinions? I also will get a card, but I'm not going to make it all mushy.

I guess I'm encouraged, but I don't want to get my hopes up too high, just to have them smashed again. Guess I'll just keep plugging along.

Hi Hope,

Three quick things.

1- When concentrating on Attention/Conversation, it's about making the best of what little you do get. The main thing I did was to simply drop everything and any thing I was doing the moment she did say anything to me. 100% attention directed towards her. Look her in the eyes (Concentrate on one eye then switch over to the other every few seconds). All other distractions need to be turned off. If you're on the computer, or watching TV, turn it off! Not only turn it away or turn it down, but consciously let her see you doing this and direct everything you have towards her.

2-I suggest you make her gift more about her. The frame is a good idea, but I would pocket it until she's out of WD as it will just stir up memories that you have no control over, so it's risky. Make it something that you may have noticed she had mentioned getting for herself at one time. Add a card and her favorite (Flowers, perfume, chocolate) to something truly for her that OM would not even know she likes. In my case FWW had mentioned wanting to get new makeup brushes, that she was running low on her favorite perfume and wanted to try lavender body wash. Now she'd mentioned these things over the course of a couple of months, so your job is to go back and think of anything she may have mentioned.

3- Sundin is not going anywhere. He declined waiving his no trade clause.

All the best buddy, hang in there man!!!

Thanks TMTS. I've been trying to give her my undivided attention, look her right in the eye when she does talk to me, but sometimes she won't even turn her head towards me to talk. But I try. I did think it was some progress yesterday when I asked her a question about work and she actually muted the T.V. to talk to me. That's a step in the right direction. And then this morning she sent me an email with a little more info on what we had discussed about work yesterday. Baby steps?

Thing about the gift is, for 6 months she hasn't talked to me about much, if anything, so I have no idea what she desires. Can't get her favorite perfume as you can only buy it in Florida. I thought flowers would be pushing it. I thought about a spa package, but I bought her one for mothers day last year and when she got done from her visit she went to see OM (and that was 3 hours before WW and I left on vacation without the kids. This was before I knew about the A), so I'm leary on getting that as it might be a trigger for her. I guess I'll have to think on that one a little more.

And one more thing, for anyone. How will I know when it's safe to start pushing the envelope as far as her being out of withdrawal? It seems like she's beginning to come out of it some (and I mean SOME), but again, how do I really know? I know not to bring up any R talk unless she brings it up first, but what should I look for?

And I saw where Sundin vetoed any trades. I can understand his reasoning, but I wish he would allow it so the Leafs can get some young talent for him.

Thanks for the reply. I'm hoping I'll be in your shoes in the next couple months.

I think you should talk to your WW. I think you should reiterate that you want to work on the marraige and that you have a plan on how to make it a happy marriage for both of you. I think you should tell her that you are not currently happy in the marriage and can't imagine that she is either. Ask her what she thinks she possibly has to lose by trying your way. If she refuses, I think you should suggest to her that if at this point she is still unwilling to commit to working on the marriage that you think it would be a good idea for her to find somewhere else to live.

She is using indecision as a shield, deliberately I believe. I think its obvious that she wants to stay in the M, because she is still there. I think she is simply hoping that you will allow all this A crap to go away, and is exploiting your fear to keep you silent.

Anyhow, just my .02.

Thanks TYK. This is a hard one for me. I'm seeing some progress, WW hasn't said anything about D for 3 weeks, it seems like she's trying in her own way so I'm not sure I want to push her right this minute .

It's hard to know what to do in this situation. 3 weeks ago when I told her (in a fit of anger) to commit to the marriage or move out she said "ok, I want a divorce". But that was shortly after NC started and with WW having issues with me being controlling (real or not, that's how she feels), I just think that me giving her ultimatums is the wrong approach. It sucks to be in limbo land, I mean really sucks, but WW is a bullhead and if she comes to this conclusion on her own I think it's our best chance of recovering the marriage.

I just think at this point WW is still in WD (but coming to the end of the worst part of it) and will see me telling her commit or move out as more controlling on my part. I've read others on this board say it took their WW's a good number of months to recommit and I'm really ok with that. It's like, now that I have broken up the A, it's time for me to plan A my butt off and let her see in an un-fogged mind what our life could be like. I need to show her I realize where I've contributed to the condition of our marriage pre-A and am making the changes she can feel comfortable recommitting to the marriage. SH told me that it took a long time for WW to get to the A point and it will take her a time to get back to seeing me as a viable option. I'm willing to give her that time.

Does that make me a doormat in some people's eyes? Maybe. But I also know that MB says plan A is to break up the A and make the Wayward see what life would be like without the betrayed in it. MB also says after 6 months of plan A (where I'm at right now) you re-evaluate to see if things are improving and possibly plan A longer.

Maybe I'm miss reading her a whole bunch here, but things seem to be improving the last couple weeks (although not as fast as I'd like). I'm just going to give it a little longer and see if things keep progressing. And if she does file for D anyway, that conversation you suggest will happen by default.

The conversation you suggest will be happening in the next month or so, guaranteed. DS19 wants us to buy him a car and when that conversation comes up I'm going to tell WW I'm not committing to more debt if she plans on D or moving out. Like you said, It seems like she wants to stay in the marriage and I agree. So if that goes unsaid, and I can see by her actions that things are improving, why force her into a decision that would only reinforce her thinking I'm controlling and don't listen to her?

I really think you should try to step outside yourself and look at what you are participating in H4U. The fact that your WW has not mentioned D in 3 weeks and muted the television to have a meaningless conversation with you is IMPROVEMENT?! Yes, it is true, its improvement. But its crumbs, its crap, and you keep coming up with reasons to extend your tenure.

I knew you'd have those reasons, but I just for some reason feel like I have to every now and then pop in and poke ya.

I really do wish the best for you, I just don't believe its going to happen until you discover your limit and reclaim you life. I actually think that once you do that you will be amazed by how fast your W crumbles. Next time she mentions D, I think you should ask her what she's waiting for? Get an attorney set up, tell her to have her attorney call yours, give her his card. She'll sh1t her pants.

H4U:

Any news?

LG

Sorry, Haven't been looking at MB for a while. Frankly the only advise I was getting was to force the issue with WW and right or wrong, I just wasn't ready to go there.

Since I last posted, things have changed. Not sure if we're on the road to recovery or not, but here's the scoop.

Couple weeks ago WW and I had the conversation about whether to buy DS19 a car or not. She said she'd been thinking about it, etc. I told her I was not going to agree to buy a car if she was still planning on filing for divorce or separating. WW said "I'm not going anywhere for 'at least' two years". The rest of the day (Sun) and Mon, Tues and Wed morning were the best they've been in 6 months. WW was responding to me, sending me emails at work that she didn't have to send, initiating conversations with me. Really being more like a couple.

Then on Wed she went to pick up DS19 from school (last Wed) and when she got home she was different. Quiet, not responsive and then Thurs & Fri back to being bit*hy. One of two things happened IMHO. The route to pick up DS19 at school is the same route for about 3/4 of the way that she would have driven to go see OM. I thought maybe she'd triggered big time while going to get him. Another thought is she had a lot of time to think (it's about 2.5 hour drive) and maybe she was scared of her feelings maybe returning and pulled back from me.

Either way, Thurs & Fri were back to no talking or only responding with one word answers if I asked her something. Fri DS19 and I went to a sports bar and watched the NCAA's all day. Sat DS19 went to our hometown and I went by myself to watch the NCAA's all afternoon. Sat night she was still pretty quiet. Sun (Easter) WW and DS15 went to MIL's and I stayed home. WW didn't ask if I wanted to go, but it wouldn't have mattered as I was on call for work and couldn't leave the area. WW said nothing to me that morning before she left. Then Sun night when she got back (DS15 stayed at MIL's house) she started responding to me again. Not much at first, but then last night she was more like early last week. This morning she sent me an email. It was work related and something we had talked about last week, but she had to spend some time and effort to get me the information so I see that as a positive sign.

That's where we stand. Since the night she said she wanted a D (It's what I want, we're not getting any younger) to now, 7 weeks later she's not going anywhere for at least 2 more years.

Things I've noticed her doing lately that she hasn't done in 4 months that make me think she's beginning to come out of the fog:

- Talking more in We terms instead of us separate. Buying a car for US and giving DS19 my old car.
- Taking a FAMILY vacation this summer.
- She's considering US going to Fla with another couple (no kids) in Oct. Hasn't committed yet, but we've made the reservation.
- Doing OUR laundry. She's actually put some of my clothes in with hers and folded them and put them away.
- Starting conversations with me she doesn't have to.
- Not going anywhere for 'at least' two years.
- Letting me know when and where she's going, for whatever reason.

Ok, I know, doesn't seem like much to some people, but the affair only ended in her mind 7 weeks ago (as best I can tell). SH told me she couldn't begin to come out of the fog until the A was over in her mind. And 7 weeks ago is when I exposed WW's STD to OMW and OM. So part of that 7 weeks is her getting over her anger at that. It's almost like the exposure clock started over when that happened.

WD is a slow process and it seems she's gotten through the worst part and is beginning to respond. Not as fast as I'd like and no commitments from her yet, but I've got time. I'm not going to throw away 23 years when a few more months of being patient will give us a good chance. Maybe I'm a glutton for punishment, but me not pushing things seems to be working. I'm willing to give her some more time to work through this at her own pace.

OK, 2x4 away!

I just re-read your post TYK, and maybe you're right. And I was ready with the "what are you waiting for" comment if she'd have talked about filing for D again, but as you can see in my previous post, she's changed her tune with that. Maybe my last comments to her about going a head and file if you want, but I'm not helping, that I'll get my own lawyer, tell the kids why their mom is asking for a divorce, etc was the push she needed because something changed in her that night. Dont' get me wrong, I know we have a long way to go yet, and we might not get there. It may also be helping that in the last month or so I've been having the attitude that I'm going to live my life, with or without her. And it's fairly liberating. I no longer worry about what she's doing and have been going out with friends a couple times a week. Not pursuing her in any way.

It seems the more I detach from her and take the "I could care less what you do" attitude, the more she responds. It's almost like I'm doing a modified Plan B with us still living together. I've stopped saying ILY. Stopped telling her goodnight. Stopped talking to her unless she talks first, etc. And it seems like since I've started doing that she's been responding more.

I just think I need to give her some more time to WD. I know I read here on another persons thread that it took their wife 6 months to commit to the marriage after she agreed to stay in the home and not divorce. The way I figure it, 6 months is only 4 more months and if things keep going the way they're going, it won't be too hard to do.

Her saying she's not going anywhere for 2 years is not, imo, a good sign. I think its her basically declaring her intention to NOT work to repair the M, but instead persist in the detached state you find yourself in currently. Its her declaring that instead of subject the children to a D where the truth is known, she would rather endure 2 years of a bad M.

That's what I take it to mean. It could be a part of the process of coming out of the "fog", it could also be a product of a plan between your WW and OM to put the A on hold for a while. That is speculation, but so is the idea that she's coming out of the fog.

In my situation, my WW would do much what your W is doing now. She'd get close, then pull away. Things would be great, then the walls would come back up. The good stretches would last for a week or so, then dissappear. It was very hard on me because I never knew wtf was going on. This was after I strongly suspected the A but before I got proof. I have a feeling this pattern may have continued for a very long time had I allowed it.

I can't say what you're doing is WRONG H4U, but it feels wrong to me. Meaning that I personally would not be willing to simply endure in a loveless marriage. I suspect that at some point in time you are going to have to be willing to lose it all in order to have a chance to recover your M. You know what I think though. You are imo just continuosly delaying the inevitable.

Doesn't mean I think your prospects for recovery are all that dim. I think that once you reach the end of your rope, your WW will crumble. I just wonder how long your rope is?