Twist your words around?? Nah, only paraphrased them.

Little difference between 'no objection' and 'I'd have to respect her choice'; Or, 'it would be all right for my daughter to get involved in it IF she chooses to--I am sorry if you can't see the similarity.

Ok , I'll tell her that she shouldn't if you are unable to tell her.


So ,then, she would create a sub-industry or affiliate of her own?
That is utter nonsense.



So, then, you agree that to choose to get involved in it would be a WRONG choice? You have my permission to tell her that. Tell her that it would be a WRONG choice. And you can at least tell her you would be disappointed with her 'CHOICE'...not in her...but her choice.


But when you own child goes off on a self-destructive tangent, you as a parent- out of love if for no other reason-should do all possible to turn the child back.


You're a parent not a pudding..

Whatever, ICH. I could repeat - yet again - everything I've said about my beliefs and raising my daughter with good values and you'd still try to write cute about how defective I or my choices are. And you'd still ignore again the point I keep trying to make - that you don't have the right to decide for me or anyone else what my morals should be.

Everything that has been said about porn, could also be said about alcohol.

You know, "demon rum"?

There are some people who are totally against it of any kind. You can find Bible verses saying you should not use it. There have been a LOT of people harmed by it. People can be addicted to it. It is possible, however, for some people to use it without being addicted.

It is generally agreed that, even if it is ok, it is only appropriate for consenting, non-addicted adults.

And this is just my opinion, but it seems to me that in societies where it is totally forbidden, its use becomes out of control and is even more damaging.

For alcohol, remember the Prohibition, and the widespread organized crime.
For pornography, think of all the televangelists brought down by sex scandals.

It seems to me there will always be some people who will find such things even more irresistible the more they are prohibited. That drives the use underground. That promotes abusive and addictive behavior.

JMHO.

You have capably shown that the two things are not the same. Keep in mind that the two types of stimulation are different. As for female masturbation, I think studies have shown the incidence much lower than for males.

It is comparable, however, in this respect: Porn gives an image of women that is unrealistic, with which women cannot compete and to which a real woman should not be compared. In other words, it is pure fantasy. I find it hard to believe that a real person's sex life is like that. Romance novels, and certain movies (call them chick flicks, romantic comedies) create an image of men that is unrealistic, with which men cannot compete and to which real men should not be compared.

I believe that healthy adults, both men and women, understand the difference in reality and fantasy.




There are some women who would be happy if their H's interest in sex were stimulated by something. I can see that you don't feel this way. If he is an addict, his use cannot be compared to the use of if by someone who is not addicted. Also, it seems to me that whatever you have been doing to deal with this LB is not working. If he's addicted, deal with it like an addiction.



More evidence of addiction, and if I may say, a DJ from you on the types he views.



Have you asked your H what it is all about for him? Your view on what it's all about may be different from his, and once again, another DJ.



I respect your opinion, but that is quite an absolute statement. If anyone, anywhere has found some good from it, then it falls apart.

If, for example, there were a man who wanted to please his wife sexually, and did not understand some of the mechanics of what she wanted, and was too manly and embarrassed to ask her, porn could be an "instruction book" (and there are such videos available). Thus, it has done some good.

I cannot argue if you say that it has done no good in YOUR life.

Excellent point Jayne.

Prohibition of a sort can exist in a relationship as well. I have seen threads here where women essentially bully their H into not using it.

Almost without exception there is a relapse. Why? Because neither has dealt with the underlying reasons that he was using it in the first place.

When I look at the objections that women have, and there is nothing wrong with those objections, I think that simply getting a promise for him to stop using does not really address those objections, as well as being ineffective.

Let's say that a woman is effective in convincing her H to stop using porn. Great, but how is she to turn off his imagination? With the exception of $, all the issues she has are still there, and she has no real way to know. It has gone underground.

Like anything, MB principles have to apply to this issue. First, no AO, SD or DJ. Second, an actively negotiated POJA.

Imagine this, suppose a woman said to her H, "Please finish this sentence, I would not use porn if _____". Then she listened to the answer. Also, a woman should be able to answer this sentence: "I would not object to your use of porn if _____" THAT would be the start of some real MB in my opinion.

Which is why I said that H and I laugh over it. We are VERY aware how fake it all is. In fact, in case some of you have never seen it, much of it shows positions that look great on film but are physically impossible! We look at the bodies and discuss 'real or not real', stuff like that. But bottom line, it is one of the few things that get me in the mood, so we use it sometimes.

You know what else works for me? Western novels! Why? Because they are written by men, so they (some) contain a few gratuitous scenes that belong only in a man's fantasy land. But for me, I visualize the scenes (he strides into her bedroom, she says 'come here, you big man', he throws his shirt to the ground, astonished, she looks at his...}, and it's a turn-on. Maybe that's what romance novels do for other women? I keep one in the side table, in case I want to read over those passages. Should I be called immoral for using that as a crutch to give my H better SF? Then I guess the millions of women who buy romance novels can be, as well.

You know what else works for me? Western novels! Why? Because they are written by men, so they (some) contain a few gratuitous scenes that belong only in a man's fantasy land. But for me, I visualize the scenes (he strides into her bedroom, she says 'come here, you big man', he throws his shirt to the ground, astonished, she looks at his...}, and it's a turn-on. Maybe that's what romance novels do for other women? I keep one in the side table, in case I want to read over those passages. Should I be called immoral for using that as a crutch to give my H better SF? Then I guess the millions of women who buy romance novels can be, as well.
*********************************************

I have to admit, Lonesome Dove got me hot and bothered. LOL
As far as romance novels written by women go....I have read a few, but find most of them too mushy.....I prefer something a little grittier.
I get what you are saying, cat......for me, it's the setting that turns me on, even in porn.....I suppose I am a bit of a vouyer.
the thing that bothers ME most about porn is that it took my H away from me, but then again, so did a sexy bartender or a pretty salesgirl,etc...the core issue isn't porn.

Thank you for my giggle of the day. My H has not used that excuse yet.

What is a DJ?

DJ = disrespectful judgment, i.e., you criticizing him or vice versa

Exactly what I've been saying! It's not an issue if it isn't an issue. If it's an issue, you have to find out why, and find a place that works for both of you because if you just elicit a promise from someone who feels forced to promise, as has been said, he'll just go underground. That's like telling your teenager not to smoke, without getting him to understand - and agree - why it's bad. If he just gives you lip service, and doesn't agree with your reasoning, he'll just go underground and do it somewhere else. That's not POJA, and is not effective.

No, it is not my burning desire to be a receptacle for my H's excitement for another woman. Makes me feel like a used piece of garbage, actually.

I think what he meant was that some men just aren't participating in SF - at all, and the wives wish they would.

No, it is not my burning desire to be a receptacle for my H's excitement for another woman. Makes me feel like a used piece of garbage, actually.
***************************************

I have heard many women say this.
I understand it to some degree....except that I prefer my H redirect his lust to me instead of getting caught up in the fantasy of being w/another woman and masturbating.
IMO... that is part of being in a committed sexual relationship.......you don't dwell on fantasy about being w/other people.
As far as porn goes...I believe there are people who can look at porn and not be swept away to the fantasy of having sex w/ someone else.....I am 1 of them.....my H isn't.....again,the problem isn't the porn, the problem is within him.
I can understand why so many wifes hate porn.....My girlfriend HATES boats....Her H spends every free moment on his sailboat or fishing.
My aunt HATES Las Vegas and casinos....her husband loves to gamble. I don't know if it's an addiction but it sure takes him away from her.
now, add SEX to the picture....and it suddenly seems so much more offensive.

Yep, my XH used porn, and I tried to "bully" him into not using it. His use went underground.

nia says:

And that's exactly how my 1st M ended - a sexy bartender.

Seriously, like Mr.GW said, the AO's, SD's and DJ's are NOT the way to handle your spouse's porn use if you object.

POJA, POJA, POJA.

Maybe this should be posted on Hold's cautionary tale thread.

My H (my 2nd, and current, and hopefully my last!) was inexperienced and had "performance anxiety." He, and then we together, used porn exactly in the way described.

So I think that is the second example of it doing some good that has been posted. (The other was a W using it to get in the mood, in order to make it easier/more pleasant to provide SF. If I understand correctly, this was something the H and the W both wanted - a POJA if you will - and the porn just assisted with the, er, mechanics.)

Look, I used to be one of the W's who was demanding her H not look at porn. That did not work. I'm not saying you have to compromise your own beliefs and standards. With my 2nd H I only did what I myself was willing and enthusiastic to do.

On second thought, I'm much much happier with my 2nd H. So my AO's, SD's and DJ's toward my XH worked - it got me away from him, so I could find my wonderful H. YMMV.

I don't blame you, I wouldn't want that either. You may not believe this, but on the occassions when I view it, that is not what I am thinking. My desire (or lack thereof) for another woman has nothing to do with it. I may get some stimulation from viewing the ACT, but I have no desire whatsoever for the people portraying it.

Have you talked to your H about this? About your feeling that you are being used as a receptacle? Does he view porn because he desires other women?

I think we would all do well to not attribute feelings, thoughts and attitudes to others, even our spouses, without verifying. In other words, you THINK he does it because he desires other women. I don't know your husband, maybe it's true. If so, porn is not your problem, it's a symptom. If not, then porn is still not your problem, it's the feelings you have generated by his use. If you have expressed those feelings without AO, SD, or DJ, and he still doesn't care, you have even bigger problems, i.e. his lack of caring and love. If you have only expressed your feeling through AO, SD and DJ, then I'm sure he feels you do not care about HIM.

A little OT, but it made me think about how little credit marketing folks give us, or as P.T. Barnum said, "No one ever went broke underestimating the American public."

I mean they hire sexy bartenders so that men will stay longer and drink more. I remember in college there was a bar that gave away free popcorn salted with cayenne pepper so we would buy more beer.

The sad thing is - it works.

And that's exactly how my 1st M ended - a sexy bartender.

Seriously, like Mr.GW said, the AO's, SD's and DJ's are NOT the way to handle your spouse's porn use if you object.

POJA, POJA, POJA.
********************************

For me, poja didn't work.
I tried it.

by the time I found out about his porn fascination, we had been married for over 15 years. He had been sneaking and hiding it all that time and I never knew it.
I wasn't worked up over the porn on the computer...jeez, I had stumbled onto some of it, I was curious.......but, HE adamantly denied he was looking at it when i first mentioned the history on the browser and then when he realized he was "caught".. he blamed his need for it ON me. Swore to me, he wouldn't be interested if I were more inhibited....
I never said no porn....I tried to explain that some it made ME feel insecure and that what I really wanted was to work on OUR sex life, I was even OK w/ the idea of porn that would Help US......I just did not want him to not sneak and lie about it....and NO strip clubs...he swore he wouldn't....swore he wasn't even interested.....but, he was lying to me.
You can not poja w/ someone who will lie.
And, I truly think A lot of wifes (and maybe H's too) are dealing w/ spouses who will lie about it because they feel embarrassed and ashamed or just plain old don't want to face w/ their own issues or fear of intimacy.

I mean they hire sexy bartenders so that men will stay longer and drink more. I remember in college there was a bar that gave away free popcorn salted with cayenne pepper so we would buy more beer.

The sad thing is - it works.
***************************

You are right, it does work.
But, when you are out of college w/ a W and 2 kids and you are sneaking off to the bar on a saturday afternoon, pretending to go to Home Depot....you should really stop and think....what am I doing?....why am I lying?...This is silly and I need to grow up.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that poja would always solve all problems. Of course it takes both parties being radically honest and absolutely committed to poja, for it to work.

But it's more likely thing to work, IMHO, than DJ's, SD's and AO's.

If the other person is going to do things that are harmful to the M and hurtful to their spouse, you can't force them to change.

I'm sorry to hear about your H sneaking around like that.

But it's more likely thing to work, IMHO, than DJ's, SD's and AO's.

If the other person is going to do things that are harmful to the M and hurtful to their spouse, you can't force them to change.

I'm sorry to hear about your H sneaking around like that. \:\(

************************************
You are very right....it is better than Djs, SD's and AO's..
at least when I attempted to talk about it and poja it, it did make him feel safe enough to slowly begin to open up to me.

The sneaking around was the part that really threw me.....the idea that a W will drive her H's porn use underground if she tells him she doesn't like it doesn't work for me.
I expected my H to be more mature than that.