It is amazing how clear and concise your letter is. It is beautifully written and well put together. I am so impressed! My mind is so fuzzy most of the time...

Thank you 11532,

Unfortunately my W was not in a place where she could read and hear what I was saying in that letter, so no matter how well written it was, it fell on deaf ears.

I'm thinking now that I will give W the separation agreement, as long as she's willing to accept some of my terms. After doing some more reading, I realized that I've got some work to do in the area of being comfortable in my own skin, and dealing with anger appropriately. I still stuff my anger too often.

I'm not going to be with anyone anyway while I work and figure these things out, so I guess it makes little difference to me, and it might benefit her.

I'm on vacation with my kids this week, and we're having a great time, I definitely do miss W.

But I'm getting better in that department.

Thanks,

- TTM

I was so impressed with the letter. I even re-read it last night. That could be the battle cry for so many of us in this situation.

It seems that you are in the right frame of mind. I still want to break things!

Have a great vacation!

Well I met with W on Sunday and I told her that I would give her the separation agreement she wanted. I did not at that time reveal to her why. We also discussed the summer plans for the kids.

It was a very 'business' like chat. Up to this point we had not spoken at all in weeks.

The next day I received an e-mail from her, thanking me for agreeing to the LSA, and saying she's hopeful that we can have a good business relationship for around the kids. And then asked me to also pay for a new roof on her house. I thought I had been clear that I would not pay for a roof on her house, but I guess she didn't hear that... Here's what I wrote in return...

[/i]You're welcome. There was a lot that went into my decision, and in truth only some of it had anything to do with you. Maybe at some point in the future we can talk about this.

With regard to the roof, I think you're right, I don't believe we did discuss this and I would like to have a dialogue with you about how we can find a win/win solution for this. I'm curious about your thoughts on this, and would like to hear more.

Let me know,[i]

I've not heard back from her yet. I keep thinking about her, and I'm having a hard time getting her out of my head. I know it's only been a few months, but I was hopeful I could find some peace and it's only coming in brief, fleeting moments.

I'm doing my very best to 'stay dark' and protect myself and our marriage from any farther harm.

I don't know if she'll ever open up and start talking with me again, about 'us'. Part of me hopes she will, another part wants her out of my life totally.

The good news is I don't feel lonely, or anxious, like I have in the past. Personally I feel pretty comfortable with my choice to remain alone for another year.

Curious for your thoughts...

- TTM

Just want to interject some thoughts. I hope you don't mind.
Number one is women are emotional creatures. Your letter seemed cold to me and probably did to her.
My opinion: DIVORCE IS NOT AN OPTION ( I did that and will never forgive myself)
She probably does think everything that was wrong in the marriage was/is your fault. Allow that. You can not tell her otherwise she has to figure it out for herself. And if you do not push her she will.
Never give up on her if you love her if you do you will always be sorry.
I think that it is a good thing that you not date, that shows her you mean what you say about loving her.
Pray for her and yourself.

Kathy

Kathy,

I appreciate your sentiments and your thoughts, thanks so much for sharing them with me.

I'm not sure if you were referring to my initial letter or the one I just posted, either way, I can see your point about it being a little cold. I've been emotional with her, and got the same response.

I do love her, and would prefer to be with her, but that's only part of the reason I've chosen not to date.

I don't believe you can have a deeply connected relationship with someone when only one of them is working on it. Tried it, didn't work.

On the same note I did realize that I've got some more work to do and that's the main reason I'm choosing to be alone.

I really like your thoughts about not pushing her, and letting her figure out that everything wasn't my fault. I doubt she's gotten there yet, probably will take time. This is why I've 'gone dark', to so that I'm not in her face, pushing in any way, and letting her figure those things out for herself.


Time will tell, and for now I'm happy to be alone..

- TTM

I just picked up a book 'Facing the Fire', by John Lee, about anger and learning to express it appropriately. What a great book this is. I've realized that sub-surface anger can really cause some people problems. I can put myself into that category. I think a lot of passive-aggressive behavior may come from unreleased anger.

I've decided to take a look at this for myself.

It's funny, although I would prefer to have someone in my life, I also understand that the word 'alone' isn't something I should fear. When I used to hear that word, sheer panic used to fill me, and I would tense up. I often feel that emptiness worse if I've had something to drink (a glass of wine being my favorite).

I've stopped drinking while I go through this process, seems like a much healthier and happier way for me.

W and I met on Sunday to discuss some terms of things, it was nice to see her, but she is very angry. She's turned all the good things about our re-union last year into negatives. I guess she has to do this in order to justify in her mind why were not together now, and why she won't work on things.

I just listened to her, and said nothing. I don't have to react, and I'm certainly not going to give her anything more that could be misconstrued as bad behavior. Best I stay clear and let the weight of her choices bear down on her. I'm just getting out of the way.

Thanks to all here for the continued support,

- TTM

TTM,

I could not believe my eyes when I saw your post, I wish you could grasp the number of people you have inspired on this board. I have seen a lot of posts asking about you or directing people to read your posts. You inspired me to save my marriage. My situation was pretty close to yours. Part of the reason I went for it was because of you. My marriage came back from the dead, its still not 100% but way better than it was (Due to my LB’s wife was and still is somewhat in withdrawal)

I am sorry for carrying on but you are a star and I feel like telling everyone the tall man is back!!

I know you are back here looking for advice.
You worked your @#$ off and she is still not willing to give?
She will realize what she lost in the end.
She had a guy that really loved her. I cannot see a lot of guys going through what you did for her and she is unable to see that?
Anyway I think going dark is the right to do. If I were you I would start dating. Remember that mini affair you had? That sure did spark you wife’s interest.
Do what works. Plus it would not hurt to have a little female companionship to help you through this, not to mention a little SF along the way.

Really glad you are back I just wish it was under better circumstances.

Goingforit,

Thank you so much for your kind words and support. Somehow, in my W's mind she has taken the hard work, the things I did for her, even my therapy and made it a negative. In her words "you use it against me, as justification for your actions."

It's hard for me to accept that even with all the work I did, and the fact that I actually did love her, we still ended up here. I am beginning to wonder if she just has to learn on her own that the grass isn't greener. That if she wants an intimate realtionship with someone, that it's going to take work, learning and compromise. I've not seen her decide she's willing to do these things. Maybe at some point she will.

In the mean time, I'm going to take some time out for myself. I want to learn to be really comfortable alone, and I'm learning some more things about myself. I like that.

I have lots of friends, and if I want SF I can get it. But I'm not getting involved with anyone, in any way. Just friends.

I'm glad you felt my story was an inspiration to so many, I hope that I can continue to inspire, and help anyone in a similar situation as I was.

I do believe one person can bring a marriage back from the brink. I also believe it takes two people willing to learn some new things to build something lasting and great. One person can't do it alone.

Thanks to everyone,

- TTM

TTM

I kind of confused as to what happened, things sounded great when you left.


What problems? It sounded like you had everything under control. Can you provide some details about what happened? What happened Feb 15?

PS I sure wish you would bump your old thread on EN.

Goingforit,

Well, I'll be the first to admit, I don't fully understand W's reasons for wanting to end it again, but I can share my perspective.

My love tank empties, over and over again. And even when I sent her a very specific e-mail asking for something, she choose not to do anything for me. I get to a place where my needs aren't being met, and I loose interest in investing more into the relationship. I'm quite certain that she's unaware of how her choices affect the relationship, but for my part this is what happens.

We don't stay connected, she's said this, and I've felt it too. For my part, I've realized that I'm afraid to talk about things that might have a lot of emotion behind them (scared of her anger and upset), so when I see she's upset about something, I just sit back and wait for her to talk to me about it. For her part, she doesn't tell me what's bothering her, and lets things build up until she feels emotionally drained and loses her love for me. When this happens, even the loving things I do for her become a negative. I guess not talking with her may drain her love tank.

I shared my fear about discussing things with her, and she lambasted me with judgments about it. So far she's accepted no responsibility for our problems. She blames the 'relationship' not her or me. She believes that the 'relationship' is somehow separate from her or I, because right now, she can't blame me, I didn't do anything that she can point to and say "see what a [censored] he was!".

I asked her to fill out the EN and LB questionnaires with me, and she got angry with me for suggesting it. I suggested we go to a counselor, I asked her to talk with my counselor (Al Turtle), and she choose not to. I asked her to read some books with me, and she choose not to. My guess would be that she feels like I'm trying to 'fix' her, I don't know for sure, but no matter what she's convinced that there's someone else out there that will be better than me. Someone that she won't have the communication problems we have struggled with.

She told me that she doesn't want to be married anymore and was sorry if that hurt me. She has expressed to me many times throughout our relationship, that she questions whether we have 'the connection' (I've never really understood this) something that would carry us through the 'tough' spots. I guess she feels like there's some underlying something that is somehow missing with us. I never felt that way, but maybe she's right, and I'm just unaware of it, because I've never had it either? I don't actually believe this, it's more of a curiosity for me than anything. I know we've both loved each other deeply, and many times, found that love again between us.

I guess the underlying thing is communication. We have had a very co-dependent relationship, which I am only now really understanding and learning to break.

Give you an example. We had an agreement to a financial arrangement while we're Legally Separated. She decided to spend more money than she had, and couldn't make the mortgage payment on her home (which the mortgage is in my name). I was furious, because this was going to affect my credit and I told her so. So I had a choice to make, give her more money (that I didn't have) or take the hit on my credit.

When I asked her what was her plan to take care of that problem (not being able to pay the mortgage), she just said "I'll pay it when I can".

Learning to handle her own mistakes and problems is something she's really struggled with.

In 16 years, I not sure I've ever heard her admit she made a mistake, or could have done something better. It's always someone else's fault things go wrong. Me, her ex-best friend, even our daughter. Everyone's got problems, except her.

I still love her, and care about her, but I can't go any farther, until she learns some things on her own, and with me 'in the way' she can't learn them. And I can't 'be there' to support the mistakes she makes.

BTW, I did pay the mortgage, and told her this was the last time I would be giving her any additional money. I then asked her to do something for me in terms of a thank you (a sign of appreciation for the help), I suggested a thank you card, letter, a bottle of wine, or something like that.

So far she's done nothing in terms of that, and I don't expect she will either.

It wasn't whether she does anything or not that is important for me. It's that I asked (to take care of myself), I've rarely asked for what I need, and I did this time, in a kind and polite way.

I'm getting better and better, and I think she's stuck.

It's not a great place to be.

- TTM

Man TTM I feel for you. I am in the pretty much the same dance. I am the communication stopped stage again and I do not know why.
I will not allow myself to initiate R talk any longer. I found it does no good.
My wife will not initiated it so hear we sit.

I am not getting any needs met and I see no effort from my wife to even attempt to meet them or even give the consideration of some feedback, although she did put her ring back on and that meant allot.

Yes communication is a big one. I have been trying to make small talk when I can it seems to help. I also crack jokes every now then and maybe tease her a little she laughs which seems to really help the mood.

Things like her leaning over me to kiss my S6 goodnight (I was laying down in bed with him reading him a story) and her not kiss me or even say goodnight would bother me. Things like that still do but it is much easier now. I want to get to the point where it does not bother me at all or just becomes a minor annoyance. I am getting there but its going take time.

While I cannot control her behavior I sure can control how I deal with it.

Like you I worked my but off to make changes I even emailed some of your post to may wife, do you remember when NO MORE was talking to you? …she was in withdrawal like my wife it seemed to help a little.

I do not know what to say, I feel so bad for you, I remember telling friends about you, I would say this guy on internet he went through He** you just have to read it. He just would not give up.

I kind of feel bad that it seems like you are going to toss in the towel. You first said that you filled for divorce I thought ok he is done and then later you backed it down to an LSA.
When you changed it to an LSA it made me think uh oh…..the tall man is back! he is going to go for it and try and save it again!… man if you can try again after all went through you are one tough son of a …. I do not think I have half that in me.

I think If you can be as upbeat and fun as possible when you see or talk to her it may help. Make her laugh, have fun email her funny things you find on the internet maybe just try and be her friend and no R talk what so ever.

I think she may be going through something, some kind of crisis these kinds of things sometimes work them selves out
I saw movie and I cant think of the name of it right now but it was an older married man and he said, you think my marriage has been great all this time, I tell you we went through a few years that were right out of the Shining. It makes laugh because I can relate to how crazy it can be sometimes.

The fact is your wife is not going for D she is ok with the LSA so that is something, that tells me that she left the door cracked open a bit.

Don’t give up man…ride it to the end if anyone can do this you can.

going4it,

I'm sorry about your situation, it's sounds tough. Let me encourage you, not to give up. Hang in there and keep working. There might still be something this current situation is trying to teach you. Just a thought.

As for doing the LSA, as far as I know, the only reason she's doing it is because it will hopefully allow her and the kids to stay in her house. If I or her filed for D right now, the court would require her to put the mortgage in her name, and right now she's got so much debt, that she won't qualify for a mortgage, so the court would force the sale of the home. She's hoping to pay off some stuff over the year, and then qualify in the spring of '09. We'll see, so far I've never seen her pay off any debt on her own at all, but maybe she needs this challenge to prove something to herself.

I've not totally given up either, but I'm also not going to chase her like a little puppy dog anymore. I've been working hard on learning my own boundaries, and my self respect/esteem. It's been really low in the recent past, and I'm finally starting to get a much better sense of myself.

Am I perfect? No frickin' way. Will I out work about 99% of the people out there for something I want? Am I a totally stubborn SOB when it comes to learning what I need to be successful? Yes I am. I think that's why I own 3 companies.

At the same time I understand the wisdom in totally backing off, and letting time and nature take it's course. I need to find my center and never loose it again, and that's what I'm going to work on for now. I've never been comfortable being alone, and I'm finally getting to a place where I can really fill my own tank.

I think my 'neediness' was at least a part of the problem in out relationship, and I don't want to repeat that mistake again.

I saw her today at a school meeting for my DS, and I made her laugh, and smile. As my confidence improves, my ability to be at ease in her presence does too.

We'll see... we'll just see,

One thing for sure. I will not pursue her again, I've been chasing this woman for 16 years, and I'm done doing that.

If she comes back at some point, both her and I will know that she does love me. If not, I can live with that too, my next relationship is going to be a really great one!

- TTM

Weekends are tough. I spent this one alone, and other than working on my house, I felt kinda lonely.

I miss the good things about her, and the companionship. It sucks.

I've been sticking to my no contact decision, and other than a brief moment when we exchanged the kids on Saturday am, I've not spoken to her at all. But when she was leaving, she turned and looked at me, and our eyes met, I felt something, I don't know if she did too, but it was there. I still love her. And now there's nothing I can do about it, but wait and see.

I'm struggling with my boundaries in regards to the money. We agreed on a dollar figure I'll give her each month for child support. And she's complaining that it's not enough for her to pay her bills, but that's really only because she's created so much debt for herself. A month ago, she said she was going to get her own cell phone plan, and as of yet, she's not done that. So basically I'm paying for her cell phone, her health insurance, and a significant portion of her mortgage.

I understand it's been my pattern to 'give myself away' to her, and I'm working to break that co-dependent behavior, although it is hard sometimes.

I found out that she's dating with a profile up on match, and I hate that, yet at the same time, maybe it's the best thing.

I've been feeling confident and strong, and today I'm not so much.

Thanks for the support,

- TTM

Seems to me from your last post, you are doing what you haven't done before...

you're standing still.

Not pursuing, not distancing. You are recognizing. Only thing to do to bust the pursuer/distancer dance.

Not pretending, either.

And you aren't giving her more money...so you are enforcing your boundaries where previously you did not. You did all those great things in Plan A with her house...we remember. We know your generosity, your loving spirit...why aren't you relying on what you've done before...as well as what you are not doing now?

How are you hearing her complaints, btw? Don't delude yourself with no contact if you aren't in it...which would be okay if you're not reacting to her contact...not lost in that old reactivity (I don't see that you are).

You know you still love...16 years...you seem to accept this reality. How well are you loving yourself well now? Seems I remember that was the new part.

LA

LA,

I love your questions, thought provoking for sure.

I am standing still. This is hard for me. But I'm learning.

You say I'm not relying on what I did before. What do you mean? Are you referring to drawing my own strength to know in my heart what I gave? My generosity?

If this is what you're talking about, then yes, I see that, and I can stand firm in my mind and beliefs'. I know what I did, how much I gave, even if now she's seeing it as manipulative.

How am I hearing her complaints? Hmmm, good question. She's got them, and I've heard them. I see her perspective now, again being much as it was when we were apart before. Turning most anything between us into a negative. I'm familiar with this, and I remember when it all changed to positive again,just before we started dating again. I'm just wondering how long it will take this time and if she does come around again, what will I choose then?

She's not contacting me, other than by necessity for school or lawyer stuff. It's only been a few times in 3 months. So it is no contact. No reactivity, that I can see. Just some emptiness.

I'm still working on loving myself, and finding ways I can improve that. I do love, and respecting myself and my boundaries is love. Of her and of myself.

I've learned that when I give myself away, we both loose. I learned that at a young age, but I'm doing better now.

I keep learning, growing, loving.

Thanks for the support,

- TTM

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!

Ummm,

It's not my birthday...

- TTM

TTM,
You wrote this, in my opinion it was the turning point in your relationship. It got her attention and gave you confidence which I feel was attractive to her……date man date!


You know something else I came to from my recent fling is that I didn't realize how big my 'victim' mentality has been a part of my life for so long, and what it's contributed to my problems. Feeling like a victim is so subtle, and it has contributed to some very poor decision making on my part.

I don't think I would have come to understand it so clearly without making the choice I did.

Did it cost me my M? I don't think so, oddly enough, W has been a little more friendly and even wished me a safe trip before a recent business trip.

I sent her a card and some money for her graduation, and she sent me an e-mail thanking me for the card and gift.

Neither thing she has done at all since our split. In fact, just the opposite, she's been cold and distant. Now I sense a little more warmth. It's still very cautious, but it feels different.

What does this all mean? I don't know, I know what I need to do, and I'm going to keep doing it.

- TTM

You also wrote this:


Thanks for the feedback, I'll consider that. Maybe she felt a sense of relief, but I don't think that's what is going on. When she found out I was with someone, she canceled a study group meeting and went drinking to a local bar all day. This is really out of character for her.

I called her and asked if she was upset, and it was clear that she was. She said she was happy for me, but clearly she was hurting.

This action is very telling as to where she's really at.

- TTM

Please do not get me wrong I am not saying date as a means of control, doing it just for her reation. When you dated or had your mini affair, you became confident overnight ...I could tell by your post after that you were a changed man and i think your wife noticed. I think about a month or two after that you guys were back together.