I'm currently working on Plan A - feels like I'm banging my head against a brick wall (with nails pointing out of it). Wife says that she started NC almost 5 weeks ago after a discussion with her brother from which she inferred that her family would disown her if she didn't 'do this right'. Affair started last October. My wife and OM are both lawyers in the same Legal Aid program. They share a common boss although they do not work in the same office. DDay was Thanksgiving.

I'm not sure how well she has maintained NC and she is not volunteering any information. Being in Plan A, I am unwilling to make her uncomfortable by asking.

However, I have only told 2 friends and one of my brothers about my wife's affair (all of whom live in Ireland, I live in the US). Neither my other siblings nor parents (also in Ireland), nor any of my US friends have been told.

My wife has told her brother, sister, and mother as well as several divorced friends of hers. She has not told her father who probably would disown her and cut her off if he found out - his marraige ended after my mother-in-law had an affair.

At the moment, I suppose I am protecting her by not telling people more broadly (including her work). If I have to move to plan B, would it be reasonable to let her know that I intend to tell more people or would this constitute a Love Buster?

Equally, our 3 children (3, 5, & 7) are only aware that something is amiss (my wife is sleeping in the guest suite) and that Mom and Dad 'have to work things out'. If I have to go to plan B, I want to make sure that the children know that they have no blame. It seems to me that the best way to do this is to give them the real reason why Mom and Dad can't be together anymore. This will seriously anger my wife. What do you recommend?

eviscer 8d:
First,
Should you decide to perform extended exposure,
in NO WAY should you EVER (ever, ever, ever)
inform the WS ahead of time!!!

All that does is let them get to the persons FIRST
and thereby blunt any positive effects of your actions.

I assume you don't to sabotage yourself,
so don't ever help a WS in their duplicity.

If you must,
let her Know afterwards ........but Never Before.

Next,
I agree with age appropriate telling of children.

Mostly because (as you've stated) kids ALWAYS Know when something isn't right.

However,
when they don't Know the real reasons ......they usually end up placing the blame on themselves.
Your children should not have to accept misplaced Shame (and other negative emotions) upon themselves due to your wife's pizz poor actions and choices.
They deserve better than that.

As to your W's anger,
choose the action ......choose the consequence.

Besides the only way she'd be happy is for you to let her do what she wants,
when she wants.
I highly doubt your prepared to accept that .......so a bit of anger is just par for the course.

Hey,
I'm sure you've been plenty angry .......and the sky didn't fall.
It won't for Her either.

Hi Top Rope,

Thanks for the advice. I suppose one of my fears is that telling my parents, the rest of my family, and my friends about my wife's affair will only make reconciliation harder.

You need to be able to verify NC. Tell your WW what you will need to do this. Next WW addiction to the OM can never happen if WW still shes him at work. WW needs to find a new job.

Never warn that you will do an exposure.

Time to do a full exposure

Thanks TR,

Why is now the time to do a full exposure....in plan A should I not avoid being the source of her discomfort? Full exposure would make her extremely uncomfortable.

eviscer8d,


I'm not sure where you got the idea that you weren't supposed to make your wife uncomfortable, but that isn't part of Plan A. Exposure and confrontation are both parts of Plan A, and neither one is comfortable at all. Plan A requires that you stop lovebusters, so you shouldn't be dishonest, make angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements, etc....but that's not the same as keeping your mouth shut because you don't want to upset her. You have every right to ask if she's maintaining no contact. Did she write a no contact letter?

Please, do not misapply Plan A. Go out and get the book "Surviving and Affair" and read more of the articles and threads here...because Plan A is NOT about being a doormat so the wayward spouse doesn't get uncomfortable. There is nothing comfortable about dealing with an affair.


Is this man married? Because if he IS....his wife needs to know pronto. If she has ended contact and is willing to work on the marriage, you do not need to do further exposure....but if contact resumes or she refuses to end the affair....her father sounds like the perfect exposure to do. The whole point of exposure is to put pressure on the affair. It sounds to me, like her father is the man to do it. She won't just be uncomfortable....she'll be furious...but that doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do. Affairs need secrecy to survive. How long do you think this affair would last if her dad knew about it?


I'm not sure how much help relatives in Ireland can be in this situation unless you think she'd listen to them. Her workplace is another matter. You do NOT discuss exposure ahead of time....neither to threaten or warn a WS. What is going to happen with her job? Is she going to keep working with this guy? And no, exposure is not a love buster....it's an infidelity strategy that should be done WITHOUT love busters.


It's not near time for Plan B, but the timing for telling the kids is not about Plan A or B. Tell the kids when you think the time is right....they are on a different schedule than this other stuff. I recommend the truth in age appropriate language for the kids. Something along the lines of: When mommy and daddy got married, we made a promise to each other. One of those promises was that we wouldn't have any other boyfriends or girlfriends. Mom has broken that promise and I'm really unhappy about it. No matter what happens, I love you very very much and that is never going change.

Don't walk on eggshells....that's not what Plan A is about. Just be a good man, in charge of your emotions and show your wife that the marriage is a better alternative than the affair. Stop protecting her from her own actions, and don't shy away from exposure because you're afraid of her reaction. If she won't end the affair, take the next step.

Sorry you're hurting.

Anti automatic exposure here, although I recognize that constitutes heresy.

In my case, my husband ended the affair immediately when I found out. The other woman did call him a few times afterward, but I knew she was doing it, he didn't speak to her except to tell her not to call anymore, and she stopped when I went to her house and told her if she didn't leave us alone I would tell her ex-husband, with whom she was living at the time (oh, she was a piece of work). However, it felt wrong to me to demean myself by publicizing his infidelity, and 8 years later in a strong and happy relationship, I am sure it was right for us.


eviscer8d, only you can decide if greater exposure is warranted. But whether or not you take that step, you must insist on accountability from your wife. You can't heal when you are tortured with doubt and walking on eggshells. You have to feel that you can ask her anything, and that she will respond truthfully, not that you must navigate a minefield in order to stay on her good side.

Tell her how much her honesty and openness effects your ability to trust. If she wants to successfully recover, she has to be willing to do the things that aren't easy to do.

And it makes me queasy to think of saying anything to such little, little children. They may need to be told that mommy and daddy are unhappy but trying to be close again, but to tell them anything that undermines their confidence in the security of their home before it's absolutely necessary seems cruel to me.

eviscer8d,

Exposure is mainly to break up the affair by shining the light of day on it. Affairs by their nature thrive in secrecy and darkness. If she has NC (and that means NO COMMUNICATIONS OF ANY SORT EVEN SMOKE SIGNALA), the exposure further is not necessary.

If you read the articles here and the book you will find exposure is not about punishment, it should be done to seek support and help in saving your marriage. If the affair is over, the need to shine light non the affair is diminished greatly. HOWEVER, you may need to expose to certain people to seek their help in rebuilding your marriage.

Her working where OM is even if in a different office is NOT a good thing. You need to make sure that NC means to her NO CONTACT OF ANY SORT.

Further, have you established her needs and have you been attempting to meet them? What changes have you made in yourself or thought you needed to make.

An affair is a life changing event for the wS and the BS, and the goal here is to make it a life changing event that changes you both for the better. How can you be a better husband, better father, better friend? Those are the things you need to address. You can only change yourself, but often these changes have strange nonlinear effects. The other person starts to change as well.

Please read the literature here, and consider obtain Surviving an Affair.

God Bless,

JL

All,

I appreciate the advice. I have read SAA and HNHN, maybe I should re-read them.

Any way, as to increased exposure, I guess where I am coming out is that, if the A is over and there truly has been NC for the 5 weeks since she returned OM's phone to him, then there is nothing to be gained by increasing exposure.

Also, I don't know if this is standard 'Fog Talk', but my wife insists that the A has nothing to do with me and her, that we had larger problems prior to the A, that her desire to D is not so that she can resume her A but because she believes that the children would be better off with us divorced than staying together with her being unhappy. BTW, I agree that things weren't great for many years - we each failed to meet each other's important ENs and I was the greater culprit.

She does not believe that she and I were ever truly in love. Now that she knows what 'Real Love' is, she does not believe that she could ever be happy with me since I do not know what she is talking about wrt 'Real Love'. She believes that we never really had anything in our relationship to go back to therefore all the marital advice about 'going back to when you were happy and met each other's needs' is irrelevant to our situation.
She is currently making herself at home in the guest suite, waiting for me to realise the futility of my efforts to make her happy so that I will 'be fair' in a divorce.

She told me last night that she is just getting angrier and angrier with me because she feels threatened by my attention, by our families' attempts to help, and by her fear that I am only positioning myself as the great father and husband so that I have a stronger legal position in an ugly divorce.

I'm really not sure what to do or how to respond. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I meant to answer some of the other questions in my last post...

OM has been separated for 8 years and has 2 teenage sons. He is almost 58, my wife is 43, I'm 39. I believe that his wife and children both know about my wife although they may not know that she is married with young children.

My wife is pretty reluctant to pursue any marriage saving advice because she does not believe that there is anything to save. She is busy researching 'how to have an easy divorce' and 'how to be sure that the time for divorce is right'. Since she believes that there is nothing to save, she does see any reason to provide proof of NC, or to quit her job. The only reason she went NC was because of pressure from her family rather than any desire to reconcile.


I'm fairly sure that her ENs are Conversation, Affection, Financial Support, Family Commitment, and Honesty and Openness. I'm pretty sure that I am now doing a very good job with A and FC, although she believes that my efforts are part of a legal strategy. FS was never an issue. Unfortunately C requires some effort on her part and is also required for H&O. One sided conversations are pretty hard to sustain.

This is just my opinion, but I think it's fairly safe to assume that there is no NC, and the A is ongoing.

I've read the stories of many, many people. WS's carry on their affairs at the risk of losing their spouse, their home, missing half of their kids' childhood, their careers, and their physical health.

I have never read a single tale of a WS voluntarily ending their A just because their family (parents, siblings, etc.) put pressure on them, and the fact that your WS continues to act like someone involved in an A makes it even more unlikely that that is the case here.

I'm sure it happens, but it is unusual enough to be VERY improbable.

I don't know what Dr. Harley's stance is exactly, but in my rulebook, exposure can never be a lovebuster. There should never have been anything to expose in the first place.

A WS getting angry about exposure can be a lovebuster, though.

Everything you're saying she's saying is very typical for a WW. She IS still in the fog, even if she's not actively pursuing the OM. If you want the marriage, just don't listen to her for now. Expose. There is way too little time from NC for you to be safe. Plus, she and he have to learn the consequences of breaking up a marriage via an A. And others have to know so they can help you keep an eye on them and make sure they don't have a chance to drift together again. At least until - if - you end up divorced.

Hi

Youre asking if what is says is fogspeak or true.

Well, I just read what your wife has said to you. If I were to go and read EVERYTHING that was said to a BS by a WS, those words would be repeated, repeated and repeated again and again and again. Even if you like to think so, your wife is NOT that unique.
That should answer your question.

You got to think of people in the middle of affiars as addicts. It really is not that much different, if its different at all. They will say ANYTHING to keep using, ANYTHING. They will blame anybody and anything for their addiction.


I won't be to sure that her affair is really over. This site is loaded with false starts, left and right. Keep revealing. It has to become UNCOMFORTABLE AND EMBARASSING for her to continue this affair. If she or you look at it as vindictive, so be it. SHE MADE HER BED.

Good luck.

Your wife is completely foggy - every bit of that stuff is pure fog. I would wager she is still carrying out the A.

Exposure is part of Plan A. There is a post somewhere around (Orchid I think?) that describes the carrot and the stick of plan A. Essentially, you have to let the consequences of her A fall straight on her shoulders - do NOT protect her from them as that simply enables the A further. Exposure is not LBing, despite the fact that it does indeed make WS's extremely angry. The consequences are a result of her actions, not yours.

You should expose to OMW. The 8 year separation thing could be a lie and even if it's not, she could have valuable information.

My mantra at the moment is

No Expectations
No Conditions
No Expectations
No Anger
No Expectations
No Judgement
No Expectations


My wife has said that she does not really see a future with OM in spite of her feelings for him because he is too old and could not handle 3 young children. This is the basis for her assertion that the A is irrelevant to our problems. She says that it is more that she now knows what True Love is, that I do not understand how she feels since I have never experienced True Love, and that she does not think that she can live with me knowing what is possible in a Real Relationship based on True Love.

Regarding NC, what her brother said to her about the A did hit her really hard (much harder than anything that I said) so I think that it was enough of a jolt to initiate NC.

Regarding increased exposure, I still think that that depends on whether NC is maintained. It would be great if OM's wife would expose the affair to their workplace so that my wife could not accuse me of going behind her back and making her life even more miserable than I've already made it.

One more thing:

All other reasoning aside, expose because your W and OM deserve to be exposed. They have it coming.

Does anyone have any recommendations on the easiest cheap way to get contact information for OM's wife from whom he has been separated for 8 years (yeah that does sound a bit fishy)? She lives in the same general area but I think that she may have reverted to her maiden name or may be unlisted.

So, her wedding vows and marriage to you didn't keep her from cheating, but some harsh words from her brother will?

I don't mean to be a jerk. I'm a BH, too, so I can understand why you think the way you do. You'll tell yourself what you want to believe.

Yeah, it would be great if OMW exposed them at work, but that's wishful thinking. You need to do it. In the long run, it won't matter how "miserable" your W is at work, since you'll either be divorced, or she'll find a new job far, far away from OM. DO NOT allow her to keep that job if you two do decide to R.

Good luck to you!

I had some luck with zabasearch.com, and there are a number of sites that will sell you a report for about $15.

E..
it sounds like you are walking a healing path..if you have read harley's stuff you have a good idea of what she is thinking..
ask specific questions to the posters on this board.. they have harley down pat...
i think your mantra is healthy
is it possible ot get her to go to counseling..if not with you.. individual counseling for her...she is making all her judgements based on HER desires..and what she believs was the reality of your marriage
you both really are in this TOGETHER..
the ideal is still to save the marriage ..and thats best for the kids
you need a counselors support in dealing with her ideas of your marriage...
all the stuff she is saying is "standard" WW justification for the A..
1. keep being "nice".
2. tell her you love her and want to save your marriage
(( IF you do ))
3. dont push..rush..etc
4. be there for the kids..let her know she is very welcome to share in the family life..
and really enjoy your life..dump those love busters...have fun with the kids. focus on being happy as a family..itsreally a good life..really.
5. Get advice from a pro about how much to "expose" or contact
OMW or otherwise.."damage" the A...
6. DONT worry about making her "mad" or "spoiling" any chance for reconcilation..thats "standard" WW fog speak
a happy loving family..kids and huband..is a hard thing for a woman to leave..
no matter what she does..BE NICE..it reinforces the idea that you REALLY do want her
but you should also talk to a lawyer.. and BE prepared
enjoy your family.. with or without her
jerseyboy