Cat, you seem to be becoming rather defensive. But you negected to elaborate on your reference to pornographic sex being 'FAKE'sex. Do you really think it can be 'FAKE'? How would you differentiate 'FAKE' sex from 'GENUINE' sex?

I have never used the word 'religion' yet you persistently make use of the word.

As for your position which you are claiming to defend I merely attempted to raise the bar by suggesting that perhaps we don't have a just right to establish our own rules for certain interpersonal behaviors. I may have suggested you were amoral but not immoral.

You refer to 'your' standards of right and wrong. Fair enough. But that's all they are. Yours. You said you wouldn't condone child pornography. I presume 'your' rules include a prohibition against such. But I have talked with pedophiles who would defend their position in favor of child pornography. Afterall, they have 'their' rules just as you do. So then if you tell one of them how you felt about child pornography I suppose that 'wouldn't' be trying to shove something down their throat. Of course not. And they would be justified in telling you that it must be your 'religion' that compels you to feel the way you do.

I wasn't shoving anything down you throat -as you put it-. I was only suggesting that it's quite possible, even probable, we don't have the authority to create our own rules regarding certain matters. There might be an higher authority than ourselves.

I am not trying to write 'cute'. Nor did I say you were playing any game. That was just an expression.

I see you have accepted the notion that rape is more about control than sex. That has been around for quite a number of years now but it wasn't always understood that way. Rape requires the rapist to take and maintain control-that's a given. But what happens once he has control is about sexual gratification. Insistant, selfish sexual gratification. Else, once he has control why not stop there. Then it wouldn't be rape, only unlawful restraint. How could you, a woman, fall for such tripe. It's about sex. The control is the rapist's foreplay.

Later......

Why do you think I'm being defensive? Because I'm answering you? I just don't want to leave your comments for all to read and think that your way of thinking is the only way.

As for your question about fake, I was trying not to get too graphic, but since you asked...for one thing, if the actors are actually doing the deed, they're doing it with 20 crew members around them, so the moaning and excitement and pleasure...is fake. For another, there are two types of porn, at least from the little I know: soft core and hard core. In the soft core, the kind that runs on HBO at night, you never see genitalia. In other words, they are dry humping and pretending to have sex...thus fake sex.

Yet you keep talking about higher authorities, greater hands than ours...what else are you talking about except religion? Is there another higher authority than God I'm not aware of?

Why don't we have the right to decide what our own rules for interpersonal behaviors are, if they are just that - interpersonal between two consenting adults? What business is it of yours or my neighbor or my mother what I do with my husband in the bedroom? Amoral, immoral, your implication is that I am less...right...than you. Whatever.

If I were to talk to a pedophile, the subject of religion would never come up, as it has nothing to do with my opinion on child pornography. My opinion on the devastation pedophiles wreak on children would come up. And the legal aspect. But even then, I wouldn't be trying to shove my opinions down their throat because that would be stupid and pointless. If anything, I'd be studying them to determine how they came to that point, so that I could share that knowledge with people who might have a chance to stop another from becoming a pedophile.

And I never said my standards are anyone else's, did I? I never told you to adopt my standards. Personally, my rules/standards are to hurt no other person and not break the law, among others. What I do in my bedroom does not affect anyone else, nor should it.

If you want to talk about pedophiles, then talk about them. But they have nothing at all to do with my personal standards of what I consider right or wrong. A pedophile will desire children whether he has a Playboy in front of him or not. Are you trying to say that porn turns people into pedophiles? um, ok.

um, ok. I didn't bring up a weeks-old post of yours and tell you that you were amoral.

Please explain how your view on what those 'rules' are is better or more correct than my view. Is there a video somewhere of God sitting in Heaven explaining what is allowed and what is not? No? Then how do you know that what you believe those rules are, is more correct than what I believe? That's why I keep asking you why your opinion or belief is any more valid than some person in some other country who doesn't follow your standards? Are you more right than them? Why? Are you, are we Americans, the only people getting the 'real' truth about what all humans should be doing? Are Europeans who sunbathe topless amoral as well, because they show their breasts, even though the people of Europe don't have a problem with it? Who decides what is right for all people?

If you say so. I can copy the phrasing back, if you like, but, like everything else, it is subjective. My cute is your expression.

Men beating their wives wasn't always understood as abuse and challengable in court, either, in fact not even 30 years ago. That doesn't mean the old way was more correct. We've had 30 more years of research on it...and more research on rape as well.

I fall for such tripe, as you say (cute words, btw), because I maintain an open mind and am always willing to learn more about a subject. If the argument or logic is good enough, I will change my opinion.

As for why not stop there? Because men were created to have a large sex drive to keep the species populated. Once the system was put in place, IMO, God left us to our own devices to choose good or evil. Some choose good, some choose evil. Men who would rape are screwed up individuals, and it's not hard to imagine that they lack the moral guideposts or self-control to differentiate between the act of control and the driving force of the physical sensations they are experiencing. Men get turned on just looking at a girl walking by; by the time a rapist has corraled a victim, the act of rape is no longer about fixing his own wreck of a life and proving he's the 'man' and wins at king of the mountain, it's about pushing his agenda forward and exhibiting his anger at the world and getting everything he wants and 'deserves.'

Cat, You don't seem able to get the feel of my style so I am going to let it be. You can believe whatever you want and do as you please. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Except you asked....




Cat, I don't have all the answers. But I know Who does. And God is omnipresent so why limit Him to sitting in any particular location. That I know of there is no video as you propose but-and you well know-there is the Bible. And, no , sunbathing bare breasted is not specifically covered but the subject of modesty is mentioned. You draw you own conclusions.






By the way, you will notice the my use of the word 'cute' was taken from your post. I was not my original expression as you said.

And one last thing: You may not agree, and you are free not to, but one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess He is Lord. And since that is an absolute, you would be wise to strive to align your standards with His.

Oh my goodness, Cat, I think I would go into mourning if one of my daughters went into porn. I don't think I'd have a peaceful day until they quit. I would need one HECK of a plan to keep from hiding in bed every day with a gallon of ice cream :eek:

Oh my gosh, what if a coworker came into work and recognized her from her photo on my desk. "Hey, isn't that the redhead from Big Bazongas 12?"

I don't think a regular guy would want to date a woman who used to do porn unless he has issues of his own, and even then he wouldn't see the woman as an equal, but rather some poor, pathetic creature to rescue in return for eterna gratitude. There are some guys here, am I wrong? Do ex-porn actresses make attractive mates?

For that matter, what woman wants to date some potentially disease-ridden male porn actor?

I don't know anyone's who's done that, but I've met women who used to strip, and none of them had any self esteem at all. I don't think that's a coincidence.

I'm sorry, ears, I just don't attribute the shameful, sinful horrendous stigma to porn that most of you seem to. Maybe it's because I grew up watching my Dad reading Playboy - and he was a perfectly normal male, sitting in his armchair, looking at pictures and - yes - reading the articles, LOL. I didn't see some perverted guy hiding in the bathroom jerking off to it.

And when MrCat worked at an electronics company, he often sold to strip clubs, and I went along with him some times. The people there, when they weren't up on stage or dancing for some guy, were just people, just like you and me, doing a job. They weren't all insideous, snarling, mustache-twirling villains - they were just people trying to earn a buck.

When I was in college, I had to do make a film, so I interviewed a stripper at a local strip joint. She was working there as she went through college. She was one of the most level-headed, self-assured people I've ever met in my life. Her attitude was, 'if some idiot is going to pay me good money to swish my tail in his face, more power to him. I wouldn't blow my money that way, but I'm sure not gonna tell him not to.' She made more money back then, 20 years ago, part time, than I make now, after 20 years in the workforce. Seemed pretty smart to me.

Like I said, I hope D17 wouldn't pick that for a career, but in the grand scheme of things, compared to becoming a drug addict or a con artist or a black widow...if she ended up having a truly carefree attitude about sex and looked at it as just another job...who am I to tell her there's something wrong with her? I'm not trying to say it's some pollyanna universe. I understand the downside of the industry. I'm just trying to counter the common notion around here that porn industry people are the scum of the earth. If you've seen any of the documentaries about it, or read articles, it's an industry just like any other; the main part of it is self-regulated with rules and standards, such as STD testing and age requirements and cleanliness, etc.; of course, the underbelly, just like the underbelly of other industries, is seedy and gross. But to paint the entire industry as filled with bottomfeeders is erroneous. Just trying to point that out.

Maybe it's because I grew up being made fun of, maybe it's because of what my stepmother did to me, but I learned long ago to not guide my life based on fear of what people might say about me or my family.

I figured you would say that, so I will share my opinion. The people in the Bible did not speak English. Their interactions took place thousands of years ago, when one person in a thousand could read and write, in a language that was not English. What people did back then was to repeat and remember - and then teach their children to memorize the same information - again, not in English; and their children, and their children, and their children, unless they were lucky enough to run across someone who not only could read and write but who had writing materials with them. At that point, it would be written down - not in English. When it all finally got written down, it eventually got translated, and not just once, until it came into English. And then it got translated into the King James version, which was known for being politically motivated.

So when you tell me that your authority for what God wants is the Bible, I would ask: are you using the original text from 3 languages ago, which is the closest we have to what actually took place?

I'll ask again: if the Europeans, who also are mostly Judeo-Christian and follow the Bible, do not have an issue with toplessness, how do we have two different assignations to what is modesty? Are you saying the entire continent just decided to chuck that part, because they wanted to look at breasts? Or is it because their definition of modesty is different from yours? So again, I will ask: why is the definition of right and wrong that you ascribe to God more correct than the definition of right and wrong that someone from Europe or some other place would ascribe? Could it be because when the Bible was translated into their languages, the very subtle nuances in language don't bring about the exact wording that you cling to as proof of your belief?

I'm not saying your version is wrong for you; I'm saying you don't have the only true answer that everyone should follow. You're welcome to follow your truth, as everyone else is welcome to follow theirs.

I never said that YOU used the word cute. Please reread. I was responding to your comment about my response. You made the comment about your words just being your expression, as opposed to being cute. I was trying to point out how you were writing cute (i.e., writing wittily and condescendingly; passive aggressive).

What makes you think I don't subscribe to Christianity? Because, in your opinion, my beliefs are not Christ-worthy enough? I happen to be Lutheran, baptized in the Baptist church and converted to Lutheran when I married. I go to church every week, and every week I pray, I take communion, I volunteer, I tithe, I help people every time I see an opportunity, and I never knowingly hurt anyone. The couple times I have hurt someone's feelings, I have immediately apologized, owned my responsibility, and offered to make amends. From what I see, the only instance in which you can claim that I am not as much as, or more, pious than you is our difference of opinion on pornography. I think I've aligned my standards just fine, thank you.

A good book which covers this topic is C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity", which covers this difference between modesty and chastity. They are not the same. Modesty is a function of the man made social norms of the time, whereas chastity is about a healthy attitude toward sex. Think of it this way, if everyone were topless, there would be so sexual excitement associated with it.

As for the Bible, my opinion is to be careful with what it actually says and what my *interpretation* of what it says. Much of it, particularly the OT, has man made admonitions that IMO, are NOT the command of God. We've been sent a guide, but we were also given brains, so it is our duty to use them.

cat, I hear you, that others see this differently. The ex-strippers I worked with were out of it, so understandably may feel differently than someone still in it.

I think both of us raised our daughters to not even consider this as an option, so it's kind of a moot point. I think our kids are looking to do something that they feel good about, not to make the quick buck, and know how to speak up for themselves instead of being bullied around by bottom-feeders. They know they're not alone, that God is bigger than any problems they face. To stick to their values even when the going is harder than they think they can handle. To find joy in today instead of chasing money they couldn't make in everyday jobs.

Anyhow, I guess I got way off topic.

About the toplessness, men go around topless doing yardwork and at the beach, and women still find them attractive when they get home That said, topless bathing isn't something I'm persoanlly comfortable with, and probably wouldn't feel comfortable even if I was covered and just other folks were topless, but I don't think that correlates with my personal spirituality. I felt that way even before I found religion.

Interesting thread, I just now found it. Haven't read through all the posts yet but I wanted to weigh in and am interested in comments.

In my 1st M, my XH read a lot of porn mags. Well, some, I dunno what means a lot. When I got upset he started hiding them from me. When he left, he packed his precious mags in his suitcase. *roll eyes if it still existed*

My 2nd and current H doesn't look at mags, at least I don't think so. Once, to try to spice things up a bit, I suggested he rent a porn movie for us and he did. *ouch* it was a huge turn-off for me! I say ouch b/c the women all had these really long fingernails and high heals and were doing things that looked to me like they would be painful - those fingernails! I just kept cringing and could NOT get in the mood. :eek:

I could think of other movies that would turn me on more. They're prolly PG-rated.

I don't think I'd be too offended if he *occasionally* looked at porn. I'd probably feel disconnected to him if he was interested in things I wasn't though, so that might be an LB.

Surprisingly, a couple weeks ago I snooped at his browser history and found that he'd been visiting an amateur porn site. I didn't click to see what page he'd viewed because then it would've showed up in his history as very recent.

A lot of times before, I've noticed that his browser history only went back 3 or 4 days, even though his preferences are set up for at least a week - which means he's been clearing his history manually.

What do you guys think? Should I be worried? He spends so much time on the computer that I often feel neglected, but I'm guilty of spending too much time online too, mostly here.

It isn't the porn that bothers me so much as the lack of attention toward me and our M.

We have sex less often than I would've thought I'd be having. We're both very busy and stressed, and I seem to be in perimenopause which makes it hard to predict when "that time of the month" will be.

I guess I should initiate sex more often and more enthusiastically, right? Any comments?

I think you've got the right of it. It's not about what he's doing with porn so much as what he's NOT doing with you!

Are you in a rut? I find that in most cases, that is the biggest culprit. Lack of talking, lack of continuing to learn about each other, lack of new places to go and things to see...basically just taking things for granted. Especially if kids are involved.

I've always believed you have to keep acting like you're dating, to keep the marriage (and the sex) good. You have to be interested in each other!

Can you make a concerted effort to spice up your life? Not just the love life, but the life itself? Make a goal to visit every museum within a 100-mile radius - gives you tons of stuff to talk about! Scan the web for any and every event going on in your area - including amateur plays, college sports events, grand openings, wine tasting courses, church round robin dinner events...there are hundreds of opportunities out there, if we just look for them. We went to a baseball game today. I made a concerted effort to hold MrCat's hand every chance I got, to hug him, to keep his arm around me, to make the event memorable. To feel like we were dating again.

I really think the good sex will come after all that. You'll be so excited to be spending time with each other, that that excitement will translate into the bedroom.

Hi, Jayne... Yep- I'll bite... Got a few comments....




HOW you deal with this info will determine alot-- I personally would be very worried- but that is just me. IMHO- YES, he could definately be spending more time with you! My H, as well- spends ALOT of time online-- though usually playing a WOW game or researching the latest guns and ammo! Again- how the two fo you handle the info you have discovered, may determine alot. I personally would discuss it with him- calmly and in non-judgemental/accusatory way. He should NOT be hiding anything from you- for any reason! This goes in with the Radical Honesty and open communications facets of a relationship. Try asking him--if you want to, and talk him about your thoughts, wishes, desires, find out what his might be... work TOGETHER to find an acceptable level of use, trust, boundaries, etc.


Stress and the hectic days of life in general can really wreak havoc on any relationship. My H and I try to make time for US, talk alot, and work on ways to de-stress and reconnect....
As for the unpredictability... just do what you feel like- when you feel like it! Are either of you against period-sex? With a few "modifications" even that can be enjoyable and not so messy. I use the "INSTEAD" feminine "cups". They work kinda like a diaphragm- and you can have sex with them in-- or swim, etc.




--Of course! BUT, don't take it too hard if he refuses on occassion. My H will not be able to get in the mood, if he is very stressed, tired, worried, sick, etc... and It was a long time before I could accept his refusals.

I understand about the difficulties of perimenopause- I am there myself, as well... this is the 1st month my (P) has been late...
But at least my symptoms--PMS-- are definatley lessening! So that can be a plus!

Wow, I didn't know there was so much activity over here in "Negotiating"! Cool!

cat:

Yes this thing we find ourselves in could probably be described as a rut. We are both tired and stressed, and both seem willing to just go ahead and go to sleep if it's going to take effort. And when we do have SF it's pretty much the same thing.



That would be good if we had the time. Things are really extremely stressful right now, with jobs and transitions. He's looking for a job where we can still live in the same place, and it looks like that means my leaving my job. Maybe things will get better when the job situation settles down.

As for holding hands, he doesn't like touching! Sometimes he tolerates hand-holding because he knows I feel hurt when he refuses. But he has to have his hand totally on the outside (not interlocking fingers and thumbs) and he drops it as soon as he can.

4Better:


I'm not sure how to bring it up, because I don't want to "tip my hand" that I've been snooping... just in case there's more to find. I really don't think there is, but those are famous last words. Isn't that what led to wonderin's D-Day?

But I really don't think there's anything to find, other than the porn site visits. Maybe I could bring up things like that in a vague sort of way, maybe asking if he was bored with our SF or something.


It's kind of a turn-off for me, and I don't know about him. I haven't heard of these cups. Are they latex, because I'm severely allergic to latex. --Which, BTW, was another problem for awhile, since latex condoms were out of the question and I don't want to take BC pills anymore. We used the "rhythm" method and now we aren't so worried. I wouldn't be devastated if I got pg, but I don't think I can anymore.


Hello sister!

I love C.S. Lewis.

Did you mean "there would be no sexual excitement associated with it."? If so, I agree. See below.


I learned something interesting in a church-sponsored course I took on Christian evangelical missions. The textbook was something like "Perspectives on the Christian Mission Movement" or something. What I took away as the most important lesson, was how careful we have to be about imposing our standards on others. Which is NOT the lesson one might expect from a Christian course on missions.

It was described how many missionaries went to some region, maybe Africa, and found that the women went around topless. They proceeded to "educate" the women about "decency" and covering their breasts. It seemed to have worked. The women started wearing clothes over their breasts.

Except it turned out, the women had turned to prostitution in order to afford the clothes to cover their breasts.

In another story (or maybe it was the same story?) missionaries found that the chiefs typically had many wives. The missionaries told the chief he had to get rid of all but one wife. I forget how it ended, but the moral of the story is that if the chief got rid of the rest of the wives, they would either die or be forced into prostitution. Their society was based on the chief supporting and taking care of many women, and if he didn't, there were no societal structures for those women to survive.

The second lesson I took away was that it's important for the missionaries to be immersed in that culture before they start attempting to change it. For example, so they'll know whether telling the women to wear shirts will lead them to prostitution. To not make value judgments as an outsider. WWJD? He'd probably sit down with the villagers, dressed however they are dressed, and share their meals.

It's important to eat their food, everything you are served, and not be squeamish - or you won't be received. (Didn't Jesus give similar advice to his disciples, to eat whatever's put before them and not "shop around" for the best host?) And definitely to not maintain constant contact with your own culture - your own food, living in separate "Western" housing, etc. You will go through culture shock, but if you maintain contact with your own culture, you'll never "pass through" the culture shock stage, and you'll seem an outsider - and why should they listen to you, if their food and housing is "not good enough" for you?

Just some interesting tidbits.

Wow, 4Better...you have described my life.

Guys, if your wife doesn't mind you looking at porn, more power to you. As for saying it compares to romance novels, well, I can't remember the last time I read myself into a delirium and had to have an orgasm. I don't think I've ever read a romance novel anyway, does anyone really read those? And masturbate after? Whatever.

Anyway, my H and I have been dealing with this for over five years. I have set boundaries, only to have them broken and to be lied to again and again. Trust? The only trust I have right now is that I will be lied to again, and that I will stumble over it once more, in my home, after the promises that he will not do that again.

I don't think he can help himself. I believe he's a porn addict. I don't go through a sexual drought when he's looking, if possible, he gets even more worked up.

What porn has taken from me...let me think. It has taken money from the family. It has taken time from the family. It has taken trust, because he lies and says he'll stop, but he can't. It has used up some of my respect for him, and I do love him with all my heart. That's why I haven't left. He has joined a mens addiction group this time, so we'll see. He wants to stop and is really trying (he says), but who knows? I've also seen worse and worse porn every time I find it. Odd stuff. Weird stuff.

I remember seeing a Dr. Phil and he said 'if it's something you wouldn't do with your wife by your side, then it's cheating'.

To the men who use porn, is it less personal because you don't know the women? If you had a neighbor over to parade around naked while you masturbated, is that okay? That's not technically cheating either.

I know I am rambling all over the place. I don't even know where to start about how porn has hurt me, and tainted some things that I will never be able to see in the old light again.

Porn seems all about instant gratification, whenever, wherever, and in whatever style you feel like in the moment. It is selfish.

There is no good in porn. None.

I know that my husband was addicted to porn for years before the affair. He even says that it caused him to withdraw into himself even more- his dirty little secret.

It was so destructive, I just don;t see how it can be good at all. I understand spicing up your love life. There are great christian books about this subject and you can still be creative and exciting without violating Gods laws and I don't believe for a second that God would approve of porn.

And which porn, it gets so seedy and hardcore, gay porn, child porn, animal porn. To me it is totally sick and my Dad had a colelction of Playboys- he shouldn't have but he did. If you allow any of it you are on a slippery slope to sin and headonism.

I love intimacy and (even after my husbands affair) enjoy my sexuality. Being creative comes from a sense of peace and comfort and knowing that what you are doing is blessed by God and not spurned by the Devil.

I respect your opinions and experiences, and am sorry your experiences have been negative. Mine has been different. In my situation, it has not led to addiction; there has been no secret life, there has only been my H and me using it together. It has created an outlet in which I feel freer to engage in SF with my H. Why? Who knows. All I know is we have benefited from it the few times it is used.

Therefore, IMO, it is not bad and evil in all instances. Only in those situations in which both partners are not enthusiastic participants - just like any other situation in a marriage.

The more I hear from people about it the more I realize that most people simply don't give the subject enough weight - before getting married. I know, you can marry someone who promises they don't use it, and lies, but if you find yourself in that situation, you will have to negotiate and POJA - just like any other situation in a marriage.

I think learning how to feel comfortable with someone, comfortable enough to open up and allow yourself to be stimulated and to really focus on doing the same thing for the other person requires a deep connection one that we can imitate with porn, but we cannot recreate.

The porn feels like it opens us up, it seems like we become more uninhibited and turned on, but it opens up the sexual- physical part of our minds. it does not open up our hearts, it is not spiritual it is physical stimulation and learning to stimulate someones elses sexuality without this crutch I think requires a deep level of connection, a spiritual level of connection that most of us are unable to have, perhaps even myself.

I feel like my brief encounters with porn were base and fake, they were of the body, they were eliciting a physical response to visual and audio stimulation. Kindof like Pavlovs Dog, Ring the bell and the dog would salivate cause he knew the food was coming.

But the times that I have felt comfortable on a deep level with someone were transcending experiences. They were not of this world and not just of the physical.

That is what I want, and this is only my opinion.

Cat,evidently in your experience with your husband you don't think it has done any harm. But it has done immeasureable harm in many others lives.

It could be argued that a male individual cannot look at pornography without lustful thoughts toward the woman. And we are warned in Scripture that to look upon a woman in that manner is to have committed adultery already without ever being involved in the physical act. It is likely you would disagree based upon much you have said. Yet the danger is present.

I have never seen anything in pornography which an individual with a reasonably active imagination and a clear focus directed toward his mate can't create without ever having to resort to using it.

All in all, there really isn't anything good you can say about it. And if you were aware of half of the ruined lives of those involved in the making of the rot, I think you would be less inclined to defend it as you seem to have the need to do.

And, frankly, I think a case could be built that it has been detrimental to you as well since you had no objection to the possibility that your own daughter could become involved in it's making should she choose that as a means of supporting herself.
I doubt you would find many right thinking mothers who would share your 'opinion' on that.

ICH, I have never tried to tell anyone else they should share my feelings. I have no right to do that, nor does anyone else, even if they believe they have a religious 'right' to do so. Have you ever seen me argue that it is a great industry that everyone should embrace? No. Only that I have met people who are in it who seem like pretty normal people to me, not ogres. Have you seen me agree that there are shady sides to it? Yes, I have said as much. Any time this discussion comes up, I repeatedly bring up that it has an awful side to it, and I am in no way endorsing that. I am well aware of the ruined lives; I probably read a lot more than most posters here, 90% of it relating to social issues, so I think I probably do know quite a bit about the industry. I merely think - and keep expressing - that every person has to decide for himself what he will do in life. It is not for someone else to tell them what that should be.

I don't have a need to defend the industry. I have a need to defend any person's right to find their own way in life rather than have someone else tell them what to do. I see many posters come here and explain why they 'know' what the right thing to do is; I am merely trying to point out to people that no one on this entire earth knows what another person should do.

Once again, you have twisted my words around. I never said I had no objection. I said that I would be all right for my daughter to get involved in it IF she chooses to - although I have repeatedly said I would hope she wouldn't - because it was HER CHOICE. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the industry of pornography - and it has EVERYTHING to do with you trying to tell me that she shouldn't, and with me raising my daughter and trusting her to make the right decision for herself. I'm sorry you can't see the difference. I have faith in the daughter I have raised, and if she makes a decision I don't like, it's not my life - it's hers. Now, if she ran away from home at 17 and a junior in high school and got into it, you can bet your bippy I'd move heaven and earth to get her back home. But once she becomes an adult, she WILL make her own decisions - and succeed or fail on them.

Danil, I certainly understand your experience, and see why you would develop that opinion. My H and I, when we put on a video, we usually sit around and watch it and joke about how fake it is. We get a laugh out of it. And I'm secure enough in knowing my H doesn't want anyone else that I feel safe looking at the bodies and critiquing them alongside of him. In our case, I'm naturally inhibited on my own, so it gives me kind of an accompaniment to get into the situation, nothing more. We don't watch more than a few minutes of it, since, after all, it's pretty dumb stuff. I read all the time about people who are way more into sex than I am, who really put an art to it, who are NOT all about the transcending feelings you're describing. They enjoy the superficiality of it all. So I guess I'm somewhere in between. It works for us. Theirs works for them. Yours works for you. Which is how it should be, yes?