Yes, if a W doesn't like it, it is an LB for her, and she should practice H&O and tell her H.

I agree, she shouldn't compromise her standards and beliefs. That would be going the other way - driving her beliefs underground.

I agree, she shouldn't compromise her standards and beliefs. That would be going the other way - driving her beliefs underground.
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I just don't think "underground" should be an option in marriage.
You talk about it...try to work it out....deal w/ it in some way....or realize you are better off divorced.
But,to say to yourself....he/she doesn't like it and asked me NOT to do it... so I just have to sneak it is NOT a mature or loving attitude....and if it involves anything that has to do w/ sex......it's not just betrayal of trust,it does start to feel like adultery.

I am going to try to tread carefully here, because I would never blame the lied to for the lie. A liar chooses his or her own behavior, much like a WS.

I think of dishonesty as the nuclear bomb of relationships. (I suppose that they could also be like a slow disease, but that's another topic). I have never dealt with infidelity, but I read where a lot of people are more devastated by the lies than the act of PA. We can accept that people are weak, that they have faults, but lies are what make us give up, no?

Dr. Harley writes extensively on what makes people lie. I recognize there is more than one type of liar, but I think most people lie to avoid conflict (at least short term).

How does this relate to porn? Well, most of us have been socialized to see porn as sinful, wicked, perverted and gross. If we see it that way and do it anyway, it will make us want to hide it from those we love. Even if the subject is never discussed, we assume the other sees it as sinful and perverted. Our ego does not want the other to see us in that light, so we hide it. Amazingly, even when presented with irrefutable evidence, men lie about doing it!

So now we have two lies - one of omission, where we do not reveal something about ourselves to the one we have pledged to love above all others, and an active lie, where we deny something we have done. Ouch. I think it is natural for the lied to spouse to wonder, What else have I been lied to about?

I suppose if you lie about your porn use, you must think that the activity is shameful, or at the very least, you percieve that your spouse will see it as shameful.

If someone's instinct is to lie, then there is nothing you can do to prevent that. You can, however, create an environment where the incentive to lie is diminished.

When Mrs G and I were dating, she found a magazine I had. Her reaction was more amused than angry. From early on, I did not lie to her. While she may not be happy with what I have to tell her, I get no AO, or DJ. I have, in the past, DELAYED telling her things that I knew would make her unhappy, but I have learned that it's in both of our best interests to say it sooner, rather than later.

In other words, if I had the tendency to be an avoid trouble liar, and there was no trouble (or at least not the kind I imagine), there is no need for me to lie.

This honesty is one reason I think I have never been involved in an EA. If I have a conversation with a woman, I relate it (as best I can, sometimes I don't pay full attention) to Mrs G. I get no LBs from having the conversation, but if it goes into an area Mrs G is uncomfortable with, she lets me know and I avoid conversing with that person. (To be clear, she is NOT the jealous or paranoid type)

Taking this further, we had a convo this morning about something that came up last night. She asked me if I was mad at her. I could have told her everything was fine, but that would have been a lie, and caused more grief. I thought about it and told her that while I was not mad at her, I was upset that the situation was not different. I understood that she had no control over it, but I was not happy at the way it turned out.

If there is one thing I have learned from this forum, it's that radical honesty is the cornerstone of any relationship.

YMMV.

Goes back to honesty. If the H tries to placate his W with what she wants to hear, and it goes underground, he is lying from the start. If he has no intention of stopping, or thinks his W is being irrational, he should "man up" and say so. It isn't what the W wants to hear, but at least it's an honest beginning to a dialogue that has some chance of a successful outcome.

If there is one thing I have learned from this forum, it's that radical honesty is the cornerstone of any relationship.
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I am right there w/ ya!

I think my H finally believes that too....he does still struggles w/ w/ being open.
He learned to hide his feelings and lie when he was a young child...it became a defense mechinism for him.

I now know why he lied about his IB......He was ashamed of it and he did feel like he was doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing ...He does deal w/ shame issues about porn and sex ...and he really did use porn/masturbation etc. to soothe himself...I don't hold that against him, but his inability to be honest and open w/ me has created many problems in our marriage that I never anticipated.
Many of us get married young and are forced to figure all this out as we go.

ITA. I see that so very, very often on these boards, that people's partners do things they don't understand, but it's very clear to me that it is their knee-jerk reaction - learned from childhood - to not admit to what will get you in trouble! I read in Emotional Alchemy that we establish patterns in childhood that work for us, especially in dysfunctional families, and every time you do that response, that pattern, it creates synapses (?) in the brain, connections, that this is what you do in XYZ situation. When we become adults, those thoughts or actions, reactions, are the strongest, having been used the most, so they are the things we most readily do, even if we don't want to!

I have to laugh when people say FOO plays no part in their lives, when in reality it plays a 90% role! Think how long it takes you to overcome something like that, in adulthood, once you know you need to.

Cat: Have you read The Celestine Prophesy? It talks about control dramas in your childhood that work their way into your control dramas in adulthood?

No, I haven't. I've added it to my list, thanks.

It appears this thread has fallen off the cliff....

catperson, I know some women are okay with it, and what you enjoy in the privacy of your home is your business.

Mr. Wondering, I know you are a man and don't see it the way a woman does. I've heard everything from my H that you are saying, that it's not me, that he doesn't want anyone but me, that I am beautiful...but what it makes me feel is unsafe, and I have told him so, and we have seen and are still seeing a counselor, and his continued use is a major LB.

I wish there were a way to take a poll on this, because I believe that more women are NOT okay with this. None of my friends will tolerate it, and my H's only two other past long term relationship partners were NOT okay with it.

I think that we all, both men and women, have been conditioned since birth to believe that boys will be boys, and it's a guy thing. And that we should just put up with it, because after all, he comes home to us, it's not really cheating, because he's not with a *real* person, that it's okay to lust for someone else, but as long as he turns his ding dong my way for the big finish, then all is well.

That just doesn't work for me. You can say all you want about how that's not the way it works, but I'm telling you how I *feel*, and try as I might, I can't change that.

Do you honestly believe that you cannot change the way you feel? Or that time and experience will not change it for you? I used to think that way. I don't want to get into the details, but I now know that I own my feelings, and I can choose how I feel about anything.

There is nothing wrong with the way you feel. I would not try to change your mind on how you feel. It would be a waste of time to try, for both of us.

What I would suggest, is that your feelings are not the only ones under consideration. You must consider the feelings of your H on this. To do otherwise will only result in nothing but pain for both of you, unless you decide this is enough to separate forever.



What does that matter? The only people who need to be polled are you and your H.

Namaste

but as long as he turns his ding dong my way for the big finish, then all is well.
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LOL.
thanks for the laugh.

MG. G said..Do you honestly believe that you cannot change the way you feel? Or that time and experience will not change it for you? I used to think that way. I don't want to get into the details, but I now know that I own my feelings, and I can choose how I feel about anything.
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true.
But, if it's a value call for sushi, why would she consider changing her values to accommodate her H's choice to do something she has told him hurts her feelings?

You suggest that she take her H's feelings into account?
The way I see it, He feels entitled to use porn after his W has
continually expressed how it makes her feel...perhaps it is time that she put some boundaries in place instead of trying to change her values.

I don't think anyone should be pressured or forced to change their values. I was concerned that she seemed closed to the idea of changing her feelings in general. I find that sad.

I stand by the idea that her H has feelings, and that they are to be taken into consideration. Just as her H needs to validate and work with her feelings, sushi, assuming she wants to continue this marriage, needs to recognize that her H has some feelings in this matter. Not to agree, but to work with the fact that he is a human being with a stake in this as well.

sushi, assuming she wants to continue this marriage, needs to recognize that her H has some feelings in this matter.
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Why is it that you assume she doesn't realize that he has some feelings about the matter?
From reading her posts, it sounds to me like she has taken into account that he likely has a porn addiction and that he isn't ready or willing to address it.
I thinks she needs to read all she can about SA and what causes porn addiction and why it is so hard to break....If they are the feelings of his you are referring to, I agree w/ you.
Again, I think she needs to work on putting some boundaries into place and not taking his "addiction" personally.

The fact that she has tried for five years, without effect, to get him to stop indicates that there is a problem with the approach. Either she is dealing with this only from her perspective, without getting to the root of HIS issue, or she isn't serious about making it a boundary.

If I set a *boundary*, and told my W, if you cross it I am gone, then I am still dealing with boundary crossings five years later, then I guess I didn't really mean it.

Obviously, I don't know them. I can only go with what is posted, so that's the way I see it.

YMMV.

If I set a *boundary*, and told my W, if you cross it I am gone, then I am still dealing with boundary crossings five years later, then I guess I didn't really mean it.
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I agree about the boundaries and I also think it is time for a new approach.
I was editing and adding to my previous post when yours came in.

Don't you hate it when that happens?

I very much take his feelings into account. I feel empathy for him, but that doesn't take my hurt away. His empathy for my hurt is not enough to make him stop.

If he had been open and honest from the beginning, things would not have spiraled this way. I never demanded he give up porn. I tried, and tried, and tried talking, telling him how it made me feel, and he felt my pain, but in the end his need or want for it overcame his promise of no more.

I have laid down a boundary now. If I find out about it again before he tells me, I'm out of there. I told him that as long as he's working on it, I will be there for him, 100%.

I hope he's committed to stopping this behavior. He's gone to a men's addiction group twice now, and is balking at going again because they're very religious based, and he's not. I'm waiting to see what he actually does.

I have laid down a boundary now. If I find out about it again before he tells me, I'm out of there. I told him that as long as he's working on it, I will be there for him, 100%.

I hope he's committed to stopping this behavior. He's gone to a men's addiction group twice now, and is balking at going again because they're very religious based, and he's not. I'm waiting to see what he actually does.
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Make sure you enforce your boundary if it happens again.
If you said you are out of there...get out. He needs to understand you are serious. You can always rethink your position...you do not have to go straight to divorce.
I kept trying to state my boundaries, thinking my H would realize that the more he sneaks the less I trust him and the less I want to be with him. Wasn't very effective.

Do you know about Recoverynation.com?
very helpful website and workshops for both 'addict' and partner...and not religious based.....it's all about taking responsibility for your own actions and putting values(like honesty and integrity)into place.
If your H is like mine, he is probably dealing w/ a lot of shameful feelings and immature emotional development.