I KNOW my name was unintentionally and mistakenly placed in the above quote as I am not a defender of porn use at all.

Porn is sinful and should be resisted by all.

POJA'ed use, IF ANY, by a couple should be limited and rare as well as open and notorious to both partners. "Accidental" use (such as opening a webpage to find porn and succumbing to linger longer than you should or even making the mistake of linking off such page to more) should be disclosed to your spouse. When I say "accidental" I am taking into consideration that pornography is EVERYWHERE these days, particularly online and it's difficult to avoid entirely and difficult to resist all the time. Disclosing and sharing such events with your spouse make such events less likely to occur into the future. Disclosure builds trust and intimacy. A complete porn free life is nearly impossible these days. I would suggest men voluntarily put keyloggers on their computers or give their wives permission to secretly keylog their computers at any time, with the hope that such husband will be more dutiful to his own integrity and share any mess ups with their spouse. It's much easier to not have "accidents" when you think someone may be watching.

Secret, undisclosed, unmonitored, un- POJA'ed use of porn is completely wrong for a married man, it is a integrity and character issue and is a MAJOR lovebuster. It destroys intimacy. It destroys marriages.

If porn is more important than your wife's feelings...you've got a problem. Unpoja'ed porn use is indefensible.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I did not feel this way before MB. Though I owned and viewed very little porn, I certainly felt entitled to it back then. I justified and rationalized that I viewed/looked at it much less than almost every other guy I knew and; therefore, it wasn't a problem. 3 or 4 times it became an minor issue in our marriage. I ignored/trivialized such complaints. Ignoring my wife resulted in consequences.

Ignore your spouse at your own peril.

Marriage is a relationship of extraordinary care. Viewing and utilizing porn without your spouses approval or even knowledge is not caring at all.

What I read you saying is that as it sits right now, his desire for porn is so strong that he is willing to risk his M for it? Do I have this right? *red lights flashing, sirens screaming, bells ringing*


As I see it, there are two possibilities:

1) He does not really see his M at risk, OR
2) There is something he is getting out of porn he considers worth the risk

Assuming #2 - I think any effective action would have to include finding out what that is, and how he can get it in a manner that would be acceptable to you.

I have no idea what it is that he gets worth risking his M, nor what you could do to give it to him in an acceptable manner. That is for the two of you to work out. I think YOU need to know what it is that makes him so reckless with your affection. It has to be something important to him.

Namaste

Mr.Wondering, I am SO sorry for my mistake!!!! I should have been more careful. I'm glad to hear your feelings about porn, though. Thank you.

Yes, Mr. Goodwrench, I had said in the past that I would leave if I found it again, and didn't, because I really love this guy. Yes, he risked his marriage probably because I have no bollocks and caved, and he felt there was no risk.

This very last time I told him that I will stay as long as he works on the issue, and that must include being OPEN and HONEST. No more lies or lies by omission.

What he says he gets from porn is 'acceptance without conditions'. What we learned in counseling last week was that his acceptance of himself must come from within. It's up to him to find it without the use of porn.

No worries.

BTW...one tip I've picked up over my years here. Guys will talk about "being more visual" as an excuse/justification/rationalization for their sinful use of pornography.

They CAN use their minds eye to "visualize" having sex/making love with their wife. There is nothing sinful about imagining their wife's breast(s), etc. It is something they see on a regular basis so it doesn't take that much imagination and it actually builds intimacy.

Sexual thoughts aren't bad. There is absolutely nothing wrong with respectful sexual thoughts about ones spouse.


On another note...I really haven't read through the entire thread so I apologize if I repeat something someone already said or if I'm completely off-topic, but on the issue of your husband and porn.

To me...porn is something every male under the age of 50 grew up with a ton of access to. The younger your husband the more access he had to it and the more it is ingrained/engrained (whatever) in his secret psyche. You see...teenage boys and young men had to hide their porn from their parents and later, girlfriends, roommates and wife. They are trained to keep it all a big secret. This "behavior" continued into late adolescents and beyond. I don't hardly know a man my age (40) that I couldn't ask him if he has a secret porn stash in his home that wouldn't answer yes. My guess...8 out of 10 would have a private hidden stash of pornography that their spouse knows NOTHING about. Men get so good at the "secret" that my guess is, since you're aware of it, that the "problem" you see is likely 4 times bigger than you even know. Just like alcohol and affairs...there is no way to make any progress until you get the complete truth and he has a sustained period of "no contact" and withdraws.

It's good you are addressing this with your husband in a direct manner. It IS serious. His attempts to minimize your feelings was and is disrespectful. His use of porn is disrespectful also. To me...his dishonesty and insistance at maintaining this secret part of him is the most devastating. He's denying himself the opportunity for a truly intimate relationship. I'm sure (or I hope) the counselors you are seeing are much more adept at advising on this issue than I am....I just want you to understand that your husband is not that strange when it comes to having pornography and it's not that unusual for him to justify it to himself. Porn has become that "normal" for guys to have. He can and will understand that it's that hurtful to you and he can learn to live life without it...but that doesn't mean he won't be tempted by it again and again and NEVER have a transgression. It's BEEN a lifelong habit and, I think, eventually, you'll have to open up yourself to allowing him to come to you safely when he messes up and allowing him to open up himself to you. Sharing his weakness instead of hiding his weakness. The lack of intimacy is MORE damaging than any individual picture or video could ever be. It IS a very habitual teenage deviancy which has taken years to form. It's tough to break the cycle and view pornography from a 180 degree different view. I don't know how I did it, really. Maybe a gift from God when I sought repentence for my prior limited illicit use of pornography. My wife now understands that I am an adult and a fallen human being and that if do stumble upon pornography that it's not illegal or anything but she appreciates me coming to her openly about the issue. To be fair...she has stumbled upon it too (lol).

Last note...your husband can actually find relief from sharing this part of himself with you COMPLETELY. I don't know if you've gotten the whole truth yet. Living lies is hard work. Until he spills it all...expect defensiveness.

Have no idea if this helps.

Mr. Wondering

Interesting. I hope that was explored further. Does he think that your acceptance of him is conditional? Also, how does one get acceptance from pictures and video. It is great if he can understand that acceptance comes from within.

Also, how does one get acceptance from pictures and video.
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I am thinking it's the fantasy...he can easily fantasize/pretend that these women want him unconditionally and that he can please them. There is no pressure.

Agreed. I think women often underestimate the importance men may place on their sexual prowess, endowment, performance, etc. From what I've experienced, just as being pretty or looking attractive is a big determiner to a girl, sexual judgment is a big one for guys. Maybe #2, right up there with identifying yourself with your job/career. Correct me if I'm wrong, guys, but I've been hearing all that stuff my whole life. There is always pressure, and if you're not the good-looking high school jock who can get any girl he wants, you're gonna carry around that secret fear of rejection your whole life. And remember, if you're not into the act, it's pretty darn obvious! A girl can fake, but a guy can't. I can see how that would take the pressure off, if you have any doubts at all.

I may be reading this wrong, but if you are saying that it's an ego thing, yes and no. Yes, a man's ego is every bit as fragile as a woman's (perhaps more so), and his sexuality is a big part of being a man, along with being a provider, protector, knowing how to use tools :), etc. Men can be shattered if they run into evidence that they are lacking in any of these areas.

Now, taking the pressure off of asking his W to do those things, you may be on to something there. Having your W refuse sex is one of the most devastating things a man can deal with. In a certain type of immature man, there's no good way for a woman to turn down her H. No matter how lovingly done, a man might take that as the worst kind of personal rejection. SF is after all, something that ONLY the W is to provide. A man could get the EN for admiration, recreational companionship, perhaps even domestic support from other men. (Or as Bill Engvall once said, If it weren't for the sex, I could be gay. Without sex, it's just hanging out with your buddies)

Having said that, perhaps I have overlooked another reason, and that could be pure laziness. While men can be clueless at times, I think we know somehow if we have not laid the proper groundwork for SF, much less for asking for something a little different.

Related to this laziness is the environment of the M. If a man gets a lot of AO, DJ, then it's a lot easier to get your stimulation from porn than to fix the issues causing the LBs.

Of course, being as wide open as it is, porn can provide a visual of something that a man knows his W would NEVER provide (such as threesomes, lesbianism, maybe S&M). I'm thinking that some men would never DREAM of even suggesting this to the W, but find it stimulating nonetheless. IMO, as long as it stays in the fantasy department, it's not necessarily harmful to the marriage. YMMV

Ok, I've got my chain mail on, commence firing.

BTW Cat, I think I would know if Mrs G were faking, notwithstanding the scene from When Harry Met Sally

I may be reading this wrong, but if you are saying that it's an ego thing, yes and no. Yes, a man's ego is every bit as fragile as a woman's (perhaps more so), and his sexuality is a big part of being a man, along with being a provider, protector, knowing how to use tools :), etc. Men can be shattered if they run into evidence that they are lacking in any of these areas.
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I think that is exactly what cat was pointing out...that men ARE fragile about these things.....and I was trying to say that w/ fantasy he doesn't have to worry that he might be letting the woman down in any way....he feels totally accepted because he is doing everything right. The photos or movies add that xtra something special to the fantasy...a setting, a new twist, etc...it's like a prop....the porn habit was developed long before his relationship w/ his wife.

Nia:

I understand what you are saying, I think. I just find it very strange.

On a personal level, I just don't see how it would help. It's like he's confusing it with reality.

Ah well, nobody said I had to get everything.

porn can provide a visual of something that a man knows his W would NEVER provide (such as threesomes, lesbianism, maybe S&M). I'm thinking that some men would never DREAM of even suggesting this to the W, but find it stimulating nonetheless. IMO, as long as it stays in the fantasy department, it's not necessarily harmful to the marriage. YMMV

Ok, I've got my chain mail on, commence firing.

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As long as it doesn't keep you from your W....as long as YOU keep yourself (and your fantasies)in check and your W knows about your habit and doesn't object, *I* don't see it as harmful to the marriage.
It's pretty much the way I always felt about porn or other sexual stimuli.
For me, it could get me feeling sexy and I would redirect that sexual energy at my H......I made sure my fantasies never took me away from him.

On a personal level, I just don't see how it would help. It's like he's confusing it with reality.

Ah well, nobody said I had to get everything.
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It's probably a good thing you don't "get it". I think it means you have a handle on it....you have it under control.

I don't know if they confuse it w/ reality as much as they use it to soothe themselves.....make themselves feel better, etc....imgine you see an expensive boat or a car and you fantasize about winning the lottery and buying one for yourself.......it makes you feel good for a minute to fantasize about that.
AND...it seems very harmless.......BUT, they fantasize and masturbate to make themselves feel better about themselves.......and then they hide it from their spouse, so naturally it will interfere w/ the intimacy in the relationship.

*this can be very true in the reverse, as well. When the H refuses SF-it can be VERY crushing to the feelings of the W.



Shouldn't that be the same in reverse? That SF is something that only the H is to provide?

I have a question and some POV on the situ:

*Aside from the obvious--addiction; Why would a man STILL want/need/use porn- and hide it from his wife, lie to cover it up...deny any knowledge or use of it... Why would H refuse his wife SF when SHE initiates, asks for , OFFERS SF....???? Wife is attractive, has healthy drive for SF- and very RARELY ever refuses H's advances or requests for SF, is agreeable to new positions, BJ's,etc. offers H (SINCERELY!) compliments, and genuinely likes/wants/enjoys SF with H... Wife finds H very attractive- and tells him so! Confides in H- that she is very comfortable with him in regards to sex- and willing to "experiment" as he may desire? Asks H what he likes, what he wants, how he wants it...willing and offers to at least try to accommodate H's wishes, desires, etc...

Possible reasoning behind the above behaviours:

First: It is a possibility that H has never had anyone be so open about SF and willing and motivated? and he simply does not know "how to handle" the situation???

Second: Perhaps H has been in situations previously, where SF was used as a tool for leverage in some way against him? He does not fully "trust" that the W's motivations, compliments, etc. are genuine?

Third: Perhaps, H has really deep seated SELF-ESTEEM issues, and does not believe that W- or anyone could truly be as attracted to, love as genuinely, accept as whole- want and desire him--as he is...?

Fourth: H has viewed/used porn in the past without any repercussions- even in past relationships, doesn't see it as any threat? Thereby fails to truly acknowledge/accept W's feelings on the subject? Perhaps, in past relationships- his primary mode of SF may have been self-gratification with or with out porn?



Considered, also- is this particular POV. It seems very natural to avoid areas of conflict and find alternative methods of dealing with the stresses created therein, even though many of those coping mechanisms may well contribute greatly to the decay of the relationship. It becomes a vicious self replicating circle of mal-adjustment and self destruction.

Possibly any combination of many or all of the above could come into play, here. I am certain that ALL of the above- in some way- have validity and common grounds in the situation I experienced with my H. *(This is the 3rd M for each of us, so we are neither new to the relationship scene) These are some of the things I have been able to assimilate from discussions with my H regarding SF....


I still struggle with the immediate issues, when SF is declined, refused, etc--for whatever reason- there IS a period of "adjustment", whereas I have to come to terms with the situation and accept it, fight it- or just go with it-- and NOT take it so personally. Sometimes, he is just really tired- or H just really DOES want to HOLD me and be tender and intimate --without the act of SF...

There is NO EASY answer for anything when it comes to the psyche of human-kind ( includes both males and females). Many of us tend to OVERANALYZE most things- and in so doing- create our own little chasm of insecurities and despair.

My fiance says very matter of fact that he will participate in internet porn if we should ever have a lull in our sex life. He makes no apologies saying that it is a need for him that he has to meet. I have no anticipation that we will have a problem with desire for each other. Yet, I don't like the threat. His participation in pornography IS adultery to me.

I just can't swallow his words. My first husband was involved in numerous physical affairs interlaced with lots of pornography. The thought of pornography makes my blood boil. The threat of it is certainly NOT a turn on. I have told him how I feel. Our conversation is still ongoing.

What's a girl to do or to think about this situation?

Wow.
My first thought is that he is very much threating you. If you let that statement pass, and marry this guy, you will feel obligated to perform no matter what, even if you have the stomach flu. He will then feel justified in whacking off to porn if you do not perform.

My second thought is that if he knows your past, then it's cruel to say what he said. Using your past experiences to manipulate you is wrong.

As far as his need...please tell him that no testicles have ever exploded from not having sex for a few days, or even a few years for that matter. It's certainly fun, but it's a want, not a need.

As Elmer Fudd might say in a case like this," Be verwe verwe careful ! "

One thing a girl could do is prolong the engagement and be totally honest with herself day to day. It is by far the better choice to end an engagement than to wed with serious reservations.

MY first thought was that at least the guy was honest upfront and BEFORE the deal was done. I suppose it could be taken as a threat, but if it is something that is that is so offensive to you, at least you have the opportunity to back out now, before there are children and a whole life together to unravel. You have said how you feel and he has said what he intends to do. Maybe it's not a match.

I must strongly disagree with sex being a want and not a need. The N in EN stands for need. SF is often the #1 EN for men. Without ENs being met, one has to WHY am I in this marriage?

MY first thought was that at least the guy was honest upfront and BEFORE the deal was done. I suppose it could be taken as a threat, but if it is something that is that is so offensive to you, at least you have the opportunity to back out now, before there are children and a whole life together to unravel. You have said how you feel and he has said what he intends to do. Maybe it's not a match.
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There is certainly some truth to that......at least he didn't tell you whatever he thought you wanted to hear and sneak and lie about it.
OTOH......I do think IF he says he feels justified looking at porn/masturbating whenever you are not in the mood etc. ( even after you told him how you feel about it)......... he probably will managed to justify it whenever the mood strikes him. AND, that's not a good sign. I suggest you work this out and poja before marriage.

That's right, sauce for the goose and gander, etc




I would think in that sitch, he would be too tired for porn!
Seriously though, I remember reading something similar in Harley's book, man used porn even though his wife gave him sex anytime he wanted it. I thought, who does that in real life? But I can suspend that disbelief and go with it.


I can't disagree, could be any of those things, or laziness, or a control issue.


Well, I have learned a lot about myself and relationships in the past year. You know, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I try not to take it personally when my W is not ready for SF. I know that the way we work together all the time sets the groundwork for when the time is right. However, this journey has taken me to an interesting place with overanalyzing. I know in my heart and mind that when I create my own little chasm of insecurity and despair (love that phrase, and will steal it liberally) that what I am really doing is making it all about me, and it isn't about me. I know what is happening, but sometimes I can't seem to stop it.

Namaste