Ok, At this point SH wanted me to send her a letter basically saying we either need to be working on the marriage or we need to separate.

I say if you're not willing to work on the marriage we need to separate. And I say I can't continue to live with you while you're seeing OM.

SH didn't want me to have this letter be a contract that states all the facts, results of both choices, etc. He wanted it to be a statement that I can't continue on as we are and if she won't work on the marriage (including ending it with OM) then we need to separate.

And he said how we separated was very important to our future as he's sure this A will fail very soon if she does move out. He purposely wanted me to not say anything about divorce. Strictly separation. He even suggested I try to work it out with her to separate without involving the courts if I could as that would keep the emotions down and make reconciling easier.

Plan B comes after we've been separated for a few weeks to a month.

ok. I'm just asking if you are prepared to follow through with that.

I just don't think her heart is in the marriage. So I think the result of your letter will be her agreeing to separate.

What happens then?

I don't think she'll ignore the letter. We had kind of this conversation about 2 months ago. She said she wanted a divorce and I said what's stopping you, go ahead and file and I'll counter file and tell the kids why we're divorcing. I also told her that night that she could move out and our son was staying with me. She said she knew she couldn't afford the house so she'd get the apartment. And she didn't fight our son staying with me because that would be crimping her affair style.

She never mentioned it again. A couple weeks ago she said she was sticking around until our youngest graduated from HS so I thought the A had ended due to some exposure I did in early Feb. Wrong, she tried to arrange a meet last weekend that didn't happen, so now I'm saying, either end it and work on the marriage or move out.

I agree that right now her heart is not in the marriage. Might not be after she moves out either. I wonder sometimes if this is a little mid-life crisis as her only friend now is a 20-something loser she works with.

We separate. 3-4 weeks later, plan B and I move on with my life with or without her. And I'm really at the point where I'm ok with that.

Well, left the note with WW's purse this morning.

She spent the whole night in bed again last night. 3 nights in a row.

I'll keep you posted when I get a response.

Sorry to hear about this H4U, I'm not surprised but I take no pleasure in being right. I haven't been around much, and don't intend on spending much time here, but I will check in.

When I reached the end of my rope, I started the conversation with my W with "THIS ends NOW. We can work together to repair this, or we can get a divorce. There is no middle ground, I will not live this pretend life anymore." I meant it. She knew it. I was prepared, even intending to file for D the next day. No, it wasn't "MB recovery plan", but I was done with Plan A, and wasn't willing to do Plan B other than as a personal recovery, not a marriage recovery.

I agree with your proposed actions to protect your family assets, I hope you have done all those things. I am somewhat confused by Harley's advice to not tell the children. Your children are old enough to know the truth, its almost inconcievable to me that they don't already suspect the truth. By not telling them, you are not protecting them. You are protecting your WW, imo.

My opinion is that this has gone on far to long. Your WW is not going to budge until she is forced to face the real consequences of her actions. I would bet that it will take her moving out and being gone for a while for there to even be a hope of her changing her mind. I would suggest that you talk to an attorney, get D or LS papers drawn up, sit her down and tell her that you are not willing to be a part of the life she has created. If she chooses anything other than to end the A and agree to work on the M, give her the papers and tell her that they will be served to her legally within the next week. Then tell her to immediately begin hunting for an apartment, perhaps even give her a list of apartments with openings to let her know that you mean it. Tell her you want her out ASAP, and that you wouldn't mind her going to stay with a friend while she finds something permanent.

You need to be strong. Not from some "boot her to the curb" perspective, but because I really do think it is the only chance your M has. Plan A has failed, it really has, you should accept that, because not accepting it has led you to indecision and ineffective action. I think you need to prepare and execute a shock & awe Plan B and you need to be prepared for it to fail as well, not because it will fail, but because half measures almost definitely WILL fail. I think she has to KNOW and believe that you will not live this way anymore, that you would rather be divorced than endure this any longer. If you DON'T feel this way, then of course you should disregard my advice until you do.

Sorry man, I thought there must be a reason for her to persist in her ill treatment of you. I wish you the best.

Thanks TYK. Should have listed to everyone a long time ago about telling the kids. I wanted to, but SH still advises me not to tell them unless separation is certain.

But.....WW replied to my letter this morning with an email. It said "I agree with the separation but DS15 and I will not be leaving the house. What are your plans?

So, tomorrow morning I'm taking DS15 on a drive to DS19's college. I'm telling them that for the last year WW has been having an affair with a married POS, refuses to work on our marriage, refuses to quit getting together with OM and refuses to move out of the house. I'll continue that I've been trying for 7 months to save our marriage, but WW refuses to even try and expects me to move out of the house after I suggested we separate because I couldn't take the disrespect anymore.

Let her deal with the kids then.

I'm sure an attny told WW to not move out of the house. She also thinks she holds the power in this. I'm sure me being somewhat of a doormat all along makes her think I'm going to back down, but not anymore. I don't even want to be with the person she's become, so F her.

And she thinks I'm going to move, pay her alimony, CS etc so she can continue with her lifestyle she's accustomed to while she continues to F OM whenever she can arrange it, and I'm supposed to be ok with that?

No need for any worries about me being strong now. I'm almost at a point where I'm not even sure I want the marriage to work. And if telling the kids and her mom doesn't shock her into working on the marriage, then the filing from the attny just might.

Hopefor,

Get an attorney, file for separation, and see if you can get HER out of the house. Your one remaining child at home gets to choose who he lives with given his age. Talk with him about his choices.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks JL. I called an attny this afternoon but they must have been gone for the day. I'm calling first thing Mon morning. And part of my discussion with the kids will be on choices you make in life and consequences of your actions, what is right and wrong in marriage etc. But I am NOT going to bash WW. She's just an F'd up mess right now. But she's still their mother and I know she loves them very much, however deluded she is at the moment.

We'll see how she handles it when I get back with DS15 from DS19's school. It's about a 5 hour round trip so we'll be gone quite a while. So when we get home when WW asks where we've been I'm just going to say we went to talk to DS19 and let it go. If she asks anything about what we talked about I'll just say, why don't you go talk to DS15 about it.

So then when she goes off on me, which she will, I'll just calmly reply to her attacks. I'm sure she'll blame me for hurting the kids so of course I'll reply with a "how does the truth hurt the kids?" "If the truth hurts, maybe it's you that is hurting them by your actions". I'll also get something in there about protecting my kids from her trying to introduce them to the serial cheatin, alcoholic, abusive POS. And I'm planning on saying I'll be staying in the house as I'm not the one cheating and there is no way I'm leaving.

We'll see what happens.

Well, I decided to alter my approach a little. DS15 had some stuff going on Sat night so I decided I would go to DS19's school and tell him what's going on and then tell DS15 on Sunday.

Telling DS19 went about as well as I could have hoped for. Of course he's pissed at his mom. And he's so smart. I never once bashed her and repeated to him quite a few times that she's not a bad person, but she got wrapped up in something and before she knew it, it had got out of control and now she's an alien (didn't use that word, but that's the idea). And you know what he said? "Mom is going to grill me and try to get me to say that you were bashing her and I'm going to tell her that you never once said anything about her that was disrespectful, but you did tell me the truth".

I went into most of the details with him. He's an adult and I felt like he had a right to know. I told him that the most important thing for him was to do good in school and that no matter what happens, I WILL NOT DESERT HIM OR HIS BROTHER. I told him what a POS his mom is hooked up with. Maybe I shouldn't have said that, but IMHO, that's the only way I can make sure that this loser isn't integrated into my kids lives if we do separate/divorce.

He asked me if I would spend the night with him so of course I did. We hung out, talked and talked about integrity, the truth, what marriage means, etc. We watched the NCAA's. Went and got pizza at 9:00 at night, talked to some of his friends (DS won the NCAA pool that he and some friends had going so we had to go collect his money). I felt like a real college student (I went to community college so I lived at home during my college years).

DS19 told me that he and DS15 had talked back in Nov and DS15 told him about WW sleeping on the couch and taking her wedding rings off etc. DS15 then told DS19 that if we separated/divorced he would want to live with me because he thinks I'd do a better job raising him! They both love their mother (as it should be) but I think they realize WW tries to be more of their friend than their parent. Man that made me feel good. Guess WW's little plan isn't going to work out the way she thinks it will huh?

Well, that's about it. I'm sitting here typing while DS sleeps. He's holding up remarkably well considering the circumstances. I talked to him about his college having counseling services and if he ever feels like he needs someone to talk to he can call me anytime or he can talk to the counselors here. I told him to stay busy, don't spend any more time alone than he has to, etc. I'm sure it'll be a real tear fest when I have to leave this morning.

Why can't these people see how their actions affect the people they claim to love the most?

Ok, now DS15 knows. He's known all along. He actually asked his mom a number of times last fall what "his name" was and WW acted like he was crazy. And he's pissed. He wants to kick OM's a**. He wants to call him and tell him if he ever touches his mom again that he's going to kill him. He also said he knows the loser is going to hurt his mom and then she's going to be left with nothing.

Man I raised some smart boys. I think WW must know something's up. DS15 told her where I was yesterday and this morning and when I got home I said to DS15, lets go, we need to talk. He stuck his head outside (it's a nice day here), and said to her "I'm going for a drive with dad". Anyway, she hasn't come inside yet, so that'll be fun. DS15 said he's going to wait until she takes him to school tomorrow and have a "fun" conversation.

I'll keep you posted. Thanks for all the support.

**STANDING OVATION**

You have taken the first step to re-gaining control of your life no matter what happens with your wife. She will be livid! But, her choices, her consequences. Your boys sound awesome, in no small part (I'm sure) to YOU!

I know it had to be really difficult, but you did the right thing. Can you see now how telling them was so important when the youngest has already confronted her about it and was told he was crazy?? How badly do you think that messed with his head? Especially when you have taught them decency and honor and trust and respect... he had to be questioning himself all the time. They will trust you even more for sharing the truth with them and giving them their father to talk to and confide in when they need support.

So, prepare for her sh!tstorm, read that reverse babble and really do some mind-blowing 180 stuff this week. Throw her for a couple loop-d-loops! Should be interesting...keep us posted!

Good for you, Hope...good for your boys...they have a GREAT dad!!

HFU I am in that awful place right now where we are reconciling and his moods are all over the place one minute we have a perfectly normal conversation and he seems fine the next minute he is rude and obnoxious.

The rollar coaster absolutely sucks for the BS I hate the fact that he caused this between us yet I feel I have to placate him at every turn in the road...... the rollar coaster makes me wonder if he really does want it to work cause he only seems to make an effort when it suits him.

For the next 4 weeks he is another state I will be joining him once all of our stuff is finalised over here. I just sent him a text that said 'sending you a big hug, I hope you are having a great day bean (bean is the name I have had for him since we met) and he hasnt responded which cuts me big time. I dont dare ask about it cause he will just say 'I was busy and you know that isnt me'...... hmmmm you seemed to be quite ok with sending OW all sorts of crap back and forward via text, email, etc!!!!!!!

So I am just not even going to mention it and leave him to ponder it!!!!!

HFU I think you are an inspiration and I will follow your thread now with interest

Thanks LaLa, All, Well, DS15 couldn't wait until the drive to school this morning. He ripped on her last night. Told her he would never talk to her if she was seeing OM. Told her that if he ever saw OM he would kick his a**. Said something about her "relationship" with OM and WW of course lied and said there was no relationship. DS15 told her "I don't believe you". I guess when you lie to your kids over and over they tend to lose a little trust in you huh? He also told her when we separate he'll be living with me.

This morning WW left me a note with my wallet. Here's what it said:

"Thanks for making me look bad in the kids eyes. You and OMW talk about me being selfish, Have you taken a long hard look at yourself? All your actions have been driven by your need for control and you being the selfish one. Its reinforced my reasons for wanting out of this marriage. I thought we could go on another 2 years to give DS15 a complete childhood/upbringing. I guess your selfishness won out huh? And by the way, we are not friends, friends don't hurt each other the way you have the past few months."

Waywards are just stunning. I'm being controlling because I don't want my wife f'ing a married man. I'm selfish. We're not friends because I've hurt her the past few months?

Ok, give me some suggestions on how to respond to her note.

Thanks for listening.

Good job H4U. You are going to quickly see things change I suspect. It might seem like its for the worse, and it might not even save your M, but it acting from the truth is necessary. This reaction from your son is reality of the highest order.

You don't HAVE to respond to your WW about this.

Or if you do, you tell her "I am and have been trying to do everything I can to save our M and make it work. I can't do this by myself, and it isn't possible with OM involved in our M. The only way for this to work is for you to end contact with OM, I have been hoping you would realize this. In regards to the kids, I have mistakenly tried to protect them from the truth for a long time. I will no longer participate with you in basing thier lives on lies and deceit. Our son is not angry at you because I spoke to him honestly about what is happening in our lives. If you are doing things you don't wish them to know about or are ashamed of, you should not expect me to join you in decieving them about those things."

Somthing like that I would suggest. You will not be placed in the wrong for speaking the truth. You also aren't demanding that she do anything, you are simply telling her that you will not longer be a part of her deception, and showing her the first step on the road to recovery (no contact).

Everything she's saying, its straight from the WS babble book. Increase the pressure with well thought out exposure. Really time to think about exposing to work to up the ante on OM. Your WW might lose her job, tough.

I also think you should begin preparing for Plan B. I don't know how Plan B might happen for you, but I sense your mounting rage and frustration toward your WW. Do NOT succumb to the temptation to "set her straight" or lose it around her.

You have done a good (albeit too long) Plan A, do not throw those efforts away with a bunch of lovebusters.

I would suggest you begin composing a Plan B letter as you get legal advice on how to separate. Since your DS15 is old enough to choose who he wants to live with, you might consider getting an apartment with him. I do not know ANYTHING about the legal ramifications of such action. I know its always said "DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOME" but that is primarily due to custody reasons for those with small children where leaving is seen as abandonment. That might not be the case for you. Find out what your options are H4U. I think in your case that separation should mark the commencement of Plan B. Begin to prepare yourself mentally for this, read about it, realize the intentions of the plan and begin getting heart and mind in sync.

It probably feels to you like this is all coming to a head, and in a way it is, but you need to stick with a plan.

You are acting from the truth, you are standing up and fighting for you family, doing what has to be done to protect yourself and your sons, you are no longer going to be abused and mistreated, and you are showing her the way back should she decide she wants it.

Sorry, I just keep thinking of more things.

YOU ARE STILL IN PLAN A. You are in Plan A until you get to a point where you can get into an EFFECTIVE Plan B.

She's going to be doing whatever she can to provoke a reaction from you. DO NOT TAKE THE BAIT. Commit yourself to acting from the truth, do not get sucked into stupid arguments with her about you speaking the truth being controlling or somehow hurting someone. If she says this stuff you you, simply tell her "I will no longer live a lie for you, I do not want to control you, I want you to choose to do what is right". Keep these volatile discussions short, stand your ground, but don't attack or make those barbed comments that are so hard to resist.

Stay strong bro.

Thanks TYK, here's how I responded to her.

WW,

I got your note this morning.

I will take no responsibility for your selfish decision to have an affair, nor will I take responsibility for any pain the kids are feeling by my telling them the truth about your actions. Making you look bad in the kids eyes? Didn’t you take care of that yourself? I have not said anything to the kids for over 7 months just to spare them the pain of knowing the truth. And you’ve had many opportunities to avoid this happening, but your continued lies made that impossible.

DS19 and DS15 were grateful that I finally told them the truth. The fact that DS15 has kept this crap bottled up inside him for all these months knowing what was going on but not being able to talk to me about it was killing him. He told me he questioned you a number of times last fall about who you were seeing and you lied to him. How do you think that makes him feel? Him knowing what was going on and his mother lying to him about it and not being able to say anything to me about it because what if he was wrong? And for you to try to lay a guilt trip on him about growing old and lonely is just stunning.

Living this lie for another two years would not benefit him or DS19 in the least. We have always raised our kids to tell the truth, and lying to them about something that profoundly affects their lives was simply not something I could do. Which do you think is more harmful, telling them the truth, or them thinking that their parents think so little of their lives and well being that they gave up on their marriage without even trying to see if they could work it out? Because that’s all I ever asked for. End your relationship with OM and try to work it out. I told you many times that if we did that and when DS15 graduated from HS if we still weren’t where both of us wanted to be in our marriage, then we could go our separate ways. But your relationship with OM is more important to you than your marriage or your kids.

If you want to accuse me of being controlling and selfish because I have a problem with my wife sleeping with a married man, then I’m guilty as charged. And if you want to accuse me of being controlling because I have a problem with the continued lies and deceit, then I’m guilty as charged. And I can live with that.

Do you really want me to respond to us not being friends because friends don’t hurt each other the way I have hurt you the past few months? Do wives who have vowed to love, honor and cherish their husbands, forsaking all others until death do us part, have affairs? Do you really want me to talk about HURT?

I do love you still and hope that you will come to your senses before its too late, although I fear that it already is. DS15 is spot on. OM will hurt you. Count on it. And don’t try to lie to me anymore about you and him not being together or planning on being together. If that’s what you want, I wish you all the best, but I refuse to be lied to and disrespected anymore.

Hope4Us

So, what do you think of my reply.

Oops TYK, too late on a few of those barbed comments.

I'm really done. DS15 has told me he wants to live with me, he told his mom he will not talk to her while she's seeing OM. She tried to tell him that she's not seeing OM and he told her he didn't believe her. He's been pretty tough on her. But too bad.

Plan B will be easy. I really don't feel anything for her right now. She continues to blame everyone else for the mess she's created and I just don't care to be with her in her present state. I'm going to give her the options later in the week to separate on "nice" terms or I'll get a lawyer and she and OM can tell the courts about the A. And then I'll go for child support, no alimony etc. If she wants to do it nice, then we can skip the lawyers, separate until DS15 is done with HS and then quietly divorce.

I hear ya man, realize though that it seems pretty common especially in the case of stubborn WW's; for things to NOT turn around until the BH reaches the point you are at.

I KNOW where you're at H4U. I was there. All I wanted was for it to be DONE. I didn't care if I got a divorce, I WANTED a D more than I wanted the life with an A.

It is why I believe long Plan A's are often counter productive; anyhow, I'm sure you've read my thoughts about it.

That letter, its fine. I don't think its possible to really stick to 100% Plan A at this point in your situation. Just really try to recognize that directing your anger at her right now, no matter how deserved and how much temporary satisfaction you get from it, is not productive for the most part.

Keep cool man, no matter what happens, things are going to change for the better now. Keep your cool, stick to a plan, act from the truth and let things play out a bit while you do what needs to be done in the background.