TMT

WHY should your wife take you back?

WHAT do you bring to the table?

ba,

The precautions that might warrant this is in the event of financial irresponsibility....imho.

This would include the gambling of household money (which would include the compulsive gambler and the compulsive stockmarket players)and the use of household money to bankroll an affair.

Otherwise, you are right.

committed

I understand. And you are right; I was ready to move on.


TMT, false recoveries are devastating to someone who has been willing to take you back.

I would like to comment on this.

tst and I were married 19 years when he had his A. I had been a stay-at-home-mom for 17 years and had been homeschooling our children for 12 years. I had given up my career, my earning potential, and my own financial security because we were a team. We each had our different roles in our family that fulfilled what we BOTH felt was right for our family. It had been a mutual decision.

The affair was not a mutual decision. And because if it, we were separated and heading to divorce. I was faced with the painful reality that I might be forced to put our children in school and get a job outside our home. I had made the decision to stay home because I BELIEVED HIS PROMISES to provide and care for our children AND ME forever.

tst was also a business owner and had the opportunity to keep money from me if he desired.

TMT, before my FWS came home, I gave him a list of requirements that were what I considered the MINIMUM to get a ticket back into my life. One of the actions on that list was to sign a post-nup agreement. He did that for me, to demonstrate that he wanted me to feel safe, secure in our marriage, and to show me that he would give up anything to help me trust and heal. In that agreement, he gives me our home and belongings and 100% cash value of his business if we divorce EVER.

In our particular situation, this action made major strides in my opening my heart back to him. It was a huge gesture of his reignited commitment to his wife and family. He thoughts on it were that he wasn't going ANYWHERE ever again and that if he lost it all, it was consquences of his affair.

I think that this action was one of the biggest steps he took that caused major walls I had up to come down. I believed him when he said he would do anything...because he did.

He also agreed to a polygraph and many other things.

I was willing to take him back the first time without all these actions. But after that, he had to PROVE himself to me.

Your actions will speak to wife; your words won't. Words are meaningless at this point.

TMT,

I am willing to stay on your thread and post.

I think it is important for you to stay here on this thread with all of your information. The more feedback you receive, the better your chances to change your life.

I agree with those here who have said you need to turn your "sensitivity button" down a notch or two.

I have been called a piece of $hit, loser, manipulator, con, liar, waste of time, f'ing piece of wayward crap, and the list goes on. And they were all well-deserved titles. Many of the people that gave me these titles have also been willing to give me their time to help me change.

Some important information that would be helpful for me...

You may have already covered some of this, but it would help me to see it again.

How long have you been married?

How long did you date and did you date exclusively?

When was your first affair?

When was your second? and so forth through all of them...

Do you have any contact with any of these women?

If not, when was the last contact?


I've got a lot more questions, but let's start here.

I don't want to overwhelm you with questions, but these are important. Please answer them openly and honestly.

Honesty with both your wife and yourself would help alot, regardless of whether you can save your marriage. If you can't save your marriage (and I'm not saying you can't - just saying if), then you can at least learn to better yourself.

Some people have a harder time with monogamy than others. My guess is that you probably also cheated on every girlfriend you ever had before you married. That means you can't do things that other people can do. You can't have female friends, you just "just talk", etc. You have to have stricter rules for yourself to protect your wife (either this one or a future one) from your tendencies. And by trying to sort of walk the line between fidelity and infidelity you were just setting yourself up for failure. So don't do that - be honest with yourself about what you can and can't handle.

And had you been honest with your wife about all your "friends" - it probably wouldn't have been possible for you to do what you did.

This was a post-nup...to go into effect....IF you ever DIVORCE.

Did he sign over his half of the house to you before you considered allowing him to come home? Did he give you 100% of the business before coming home?

What purpose does that serve in affair-proofing the marriage?

I don't think that restitution is a good word to use in this instance. Restitution has nothing to do with making sure that another affair doesn't occur....at least monetary restitution doesn't ...IMO.

committed

smb,

I don't disagree that this is an extraordinary gesture. I just think it is not a very wise one.

You could divorce down the road for any number of reasons. You could have an affair yourself. Chit happens. He's left with nothing. I would at least have a sunset clause on something like this.

My only point was that I don't think this is the intent of just compensation. Perhaps that's not even what Kayla was inferring.

committed, I suppose I can imagine a scenario where the WS is squandering away marital monies on the affair to the extreme that the marriage is in major debt and at risk of losing the house. I'm sure this happens a lot. I still don't think I'd suggest signing over the house unless it was the only way to save it.

Anyway, I don't want to threadjack. Just tossing in an opinion.

By my previous actions she shouldnt take me back. However, she could allow me time, to make things right or as they should have been. Why should she take me back... there is no honest reason as of today. I repeat, I'm not asking her back fully, only a chance to prove myself. Why Should she give me a chance to prove myself..she shouldnt, but I need it, if this is going to work with the two of us. I will change and become a great man, but if she doesnt give me this last chance, I will become a great man for another woman, and not be in the same household with my daughter as she grows up.

I'm not sure what you mean by your second question, could you explain.

My point was that, in OUR circumstance, the post-nup was a gesture FWS made to demonstrate his commitment to follow through on his original promise (when I quit my job--and promised again many times after that) to financially provide for me forever.

Yes, you are right that this is not affair-proofing a marriage, but it is meeting an EN (financial support). It is also PROOF of a commitment back to the marriage. THAT was the true motive for my including it in my list of requirements. I wanted to be SURE that he was the real deal. No more false recoveries. No more half-measures. It was time for him to dive in deep or leave me the he!! alone.

He has taken many steps to affair-proof our marriage. BUT if TMT isn't the real deal (especially since he is a serial cheater), then talking about affair-proofing is useless. First, he must demonstrate that he is the real deal.

I am NOT saying he needs to sign over the house. BUT I would recommend to his wife a post-nup agreement. For the record, I did not have any specifics laid out about our post-nup. TST came up with the specifics and was even questioned quite a bit on it here, and advised against it. I even told him I didn't want it to be 100% value of his business. But he insisted. He wanted to give me that security, knowing full well that I could walk away 10 years down the road. And the truth is, in OUR situation, I have been taking care of business at home so that he can take care of business at work.

So, TMT, you need to think about what actions you can take that will demonstrate that you are the real deal???

So, in your agreement, your husband trusted and believed in you that you wouldnt later have an affair and leave him, b/c you never fully healed or recovered. That took alot of trust on his part.


Aside from that, my situation is a little different, I have mention a post-nup and she wasnt all that interested. I guess b/c I dont have much to offer. We have a decent home together. a pile of debt. I could say something like, I'll sign over the house and take all the debt, on cars, personal loans, and credit cards we share. I'll mention it again tomorrow. I've even said the polygraph thing as well, mainly cause I thought that would be a sure thing, no reaction so far though.

He didn't "sign over his half of the house". We own our home together. If we divorce, there is a post-nup that says he will give me the home and its belongings.

He did not give me 100% of the business. He signed a post-nup that says he will pay me the CASH VALUE of the business (I do not and will not "own" a single share of the business).

Yes, he agreed to the post-nup before he came home.

The post-nup doesn't serve to affair-proof our marriage. It serves to protect me financially, and to ensure that my children can continue to homeschool. You must realize that my husband left us TWICE over this last year. I wasn't letting him back in until I was sure he was "for real".

I think TMT's wife needs to know he is "for real", too, because of his multiple betrayals. His actions need to demonstrate that he is fully committed to the marriage before she should consider reconciliation.


BTW, the post nup was suggested here on MB long before FWS wanted to reconcile. And tst discussed it with Jennifer in our MB counseling.

The point of the post-nup wasn't for restitution. There really isn't anything tst could ever do to make up for what I have lived this last year. He can only take actions to make the rest of my life with him safe.

I'm really not up for debating whether we should or should not have a post nup. Any financially dependent wife that takes back a wayward (especially one who abandoned 5 children) without a post-nup, IMO, is a fool.

I hope that TMT can come up with some of his own ideas on how to demonstrate to his wife that his serial cheating days are over and that he is committed to doing whatever is necessary to make her feel safe in their marriage again.

No, he said he would risk everything to help me heal from his betrayal...regardless of whether I chose to leave him later. He went into it knowing that I might "throw in the towel". He said that the post-nup was an act of love for me.




Yes, your situation is different. But you are going to have to demonstrate to her you are the "real deal". You could ask her what it would take for her to believe that you have truly turned from your hurtful ways. Ask her what it would take for her to consider reconciliation.

Protection and care are expressions of love, BA - signing over the house is not words that he loves her - it's action. Actions are important here. She needs to know that he's willing to do something unconditional. Even if she won't give him a chance. He needs to do something extraordinary for HIM to heal - because right now, he can't even feel what he did to HIMSELF - let alone HER.

How long have you been married?
We got married June 18, 2005... so almost 3 years

How long did you date and did you date exclusively?
We started dating August 18, 2002 exclusively

When was your first affair?
My first affair was an emotional one with an older woman (Cat) that lives on the tip of the west coast and I on tip of the east. I meet her when she was in town with her twins, and one of them had cancer. She began telling me her children's life story I met her around May' 06. It started going the wrong way Jan 07, after a bad christmas with her husband and our way of conversations changed, and it went to telling me her personal problems at home. Slowly, I spoke more and more about problems or issues my wife and I had as well. Nothing too personal but obviously more than it should have been. she then started making little jokes about how she wished she could start over, and how is she were younger she'd want me. My wife knew we were friends, but didnt know we had deep conversation, I dont remember the date she found out.

When was your second? and so forth through all of them...
The second was with a girl (Car) I met at a party, with a ex-co-worker. Car and I only had a PA. My wife's sorority sister's boyfriend, and I were texting about the encounter, and his girlfriend found out and told my wife.

Third, was a EA and PA with Car again, I lied to Car, and told her she caused a separation in my marriage. Also, at this time with another female (Mitch), Mitch and I went to college together. I had PA with her during the few same months. Mitch was also married, and she and her husband never ever had sex.
I had secret email address, that I left signed into one night, and my wife found out about everything. Oct 07



Lately, I had been talking to a girl (AJ) I met randomly and exchanged numbers with about a month and a half ago, that has the same car as I, and I initial gave her info about the car club I'm involved in, and invited her out to a meet. I never told my wife I met AJ, and from there I started down the same path as before. I called her constantly, and hide it from my wife, and when confronted about it I lied again, saying I had only spoke to her a few times.

Do you have any contact with any of these women?
(CAT) No not since exposure.
(CAR) Sent "NC" but I have spoken to her once, and never told my wife, she found out when she found out about AJ.
(MITCH) Sent "NC" and no not since
(AJ) No not since exposure


If not, when was the last contact?

(CAR) Car's neighbor called me to get in contact with Car about Car's dog being in some kind of trouble, I called Car, and spoke to her for 10 minutes. This was the first week in march. Her neighbor called me again 4 days later, about the same sort of thing, that time, I refused.

Well I guess I'm still far from this point, b/c I cant get that type of response. So, Im in the dark as to what would directly affect a decision from her. So, my focus has been primarly inward.

What i'm saying is at least he was aware that if he does/agrees to 1 through 3, you would reconsider, and if he completed 4 and 5 you would ultimately take him back. (not actually number of steps but you get it)

TMT,

It sounds to me as if you are ONLY going to X, Y or Z *IF* it will ABSOLUTELY win your wife back.

WRONG attitude.

Immediately, and I do mean immediately, STOP putting conditions on your behavior. I can assure you that this is pushing your BS away. You have put conditions on your behavior towards her from virtually the beginning of your marriage and she sees right throught it at this point.

You appear to be figuring out how *little* you can actually get away with doing instead of figuring out how *MUCH* you can do to show her how much you want her as your wife. I would bet my house that that is how your wife sees you now.

Make a list(you have been given fabulous ideas here) of things you can do to SHOW her(in actions) that you care about HER more than YOURSELF. THEN DO THEM!!!!! Just go right down the list(with a cheerful attitude I might remind you!!) and do them all. Stop waiting to see IF any of them will help YOUR case. STOP worrying about how YOU feel and start worrying ONLY about how SHE feels. You have the rest of your life to get over YOUR feelings but you have a very small window of time here to do right by your wife.

I do not know how the posters here can make it any clearer to you. You are making every excuse in the book to KEEP from taking major steps toward "just compensation". JUST DO IT!!!!!!

Come out of the fog man. The lights are on. IF you want a real marriage NOW is the time.

As an example of what I mean, stop waiting to see if she wants a Post-Nup. Just go do it, present it to her and let her see HOW MUCH *YOU* are willing to do, even if it means NO reward for yourself.

Here's the truth(get ready for it!!) SHE IS *WAITING* TO SEE HONEST AND GENUINE CHANGE FROM YOU. Based on what you are saying, your wife has NO intention of negotiating your behavior and giving you a *chance*. She's already done that and it doesn't seem to have worked out too well for her. So NOW, YOU have to change, PROVE it and THEN she will decide where she is and IF she's going to give you a chance.

Unfortunately, you are clearly sending her the message that YOU are waiting to see if *SHE* is going to change HER attitude towards YOU and THEN you will take action to save your marriage.

BACKWARDS!! And it isn't going to work.

The worst that can POSSIBLY happen if you take the great advice that all these posters have given you is that you will turn yourself into an outstanding, productive human being who will now have the skills necessary to REALLY love someone and your wife will leave anyway(as is her perogative because of your betrayals). And you will STILL be an outstanding, productive, loving human being.

What is it you really want? JUST DO IT!!!

WH2LE

You very conveniently dodge every last question I asked you in the post. I'm sorry, but you are not ready. No, you do not realize. You may get there, but you aren't there now. Holding onto the idea that you are isn't going to help you.

You know what is really disturbing? If you had empathy and compassion for what your wife has gone through, and is continuing to go through, why would you want anything less than what will make her absolutely safe from it happening again while you fix yourself? In other words, why are you putting "if some of the things you suggest my wife feel need to be done, then so be it"? Why aren't you taking the step of moving out to protect her from your behavior until you learn to control it? Why aren't you giving her 100% transparent honesty, and opening up all your accounts (email, phone, text, finanical, everything) to her? Honestly, if her safety is, as you say, your highest concern, I find this very puzzling.


Oh yes, you are. "This last time I broke my wife's heart." Please. This last time? Your reality check has bounced. These are your words, not mine. This very conveniently ignores and invalidates that you've broken your wife's heart numerous times. "I've lied too many times." These are also your words, not mine, and they are predicated on an idea that there is a number of lies that aren't "too many".

If you are so serious, what marital counselor have you contacted to deal with your issues? Again, I'm sorry, but, "I'm willing to post on a free message board," does not cut it...not by a long shot...and especially not with serial infidelity. (Note: Do not wait for your W to go with you. This isn't about her.) Your compulsive infidelity, lying, and manipulation require intense, long-term therapy with a qualified, licensed therapist.

Let me also be very plain - you say one thing in your post, but then go ahead and do something very different. You are also a proven liar and manipulator, and your posts are so painfully transparent on that measure that everyone who has posted to you has immediately seen through it. Therefore, I will read the entire content of your post to decide whether or not you justify, make excuses, minimize, or fully accept your responsibility - NOT your one sentence claim. This is what you wife should be doing, as well. It isn't that there is anything wrong with either me, or your wife. This is what reasonable, intelligent, critical thinkers do when faced with a known liar who's subsequent words and actions fall far short of his/her initial claims.


This is more BS. The more clinical term for this is a cognitive distortion, but I find BS more apt and succinct. Your actions tell others what you really think and feel, and what your priorities are. Frankly, it doesn't really matter what anyone on this site (other than your W) thinks. It is her you have to show, and this is such a long, drawn-out process even if you succeed, that she should separate from you until you do.


Once again, this isn't about your wife, or what she does or does not do. This is about YOU, and what you do and do not do. Stop changing the subject to your wife. This isn't the type of thing that you do with assurance that it is going to save your marriage. It could or could not. Your wife doesn't owe you or anyone else reassurance that she will be there for you if and when you do these things. If by some miracle she is, you need to thank your lucky stars.

It may well be too little too late, but the only way you will know that is to try. The only way you are going to move forward is by keeping the subject on yourself and what you do and do not do. Changing the subject to what she does or does not do will not help you, and it will actually prevent you from doing what you need to do.

Get over it - it isn't about her.

Oh, and while I'm at it, stop listening in on your wife's phone conversations. You are being manipulative and controlling. This makes her unsafe. It is the opposite of what you portray in your initial post about just wanting her to have someone to talk to and give her good advice.

Butt out of what your wife is doing. Again, this isn't about her.

O.k., reading this thread is making me want to jump out of my skin!

My husband talks just like this, and says stuff just like this to me. It is sooooooo infuriating.

Lied too many times........

My husband is also a serial cheater. Only I didn't know that until 1 1/2 yrs ago. Supposedly, he hasn't been cheating since then, but his attitude is still VERY MUCH like yours. I did not just walk out on him either after finding out. I've been trying to be patient, not making any rash decisions, and I have just about come to the end of my rope, because his mindset is very much like yours.

I will most likely be filing for divorce, after my daughter's wedding in June. I have an appt with my attorney for next week to talk about it. I'm going to talk to her about a divorce and a possible post-nup should my husband ever get his head out of his [censored] because that's the only way I'll feel safe financially. I too was a stay at home mom and now I'm in school.

This is what I've been hearing from my husband.....He says that *I* am just as much to blame for all the problems we're having and he's the one that's been cheating on me since I've met him, used porn to replace me during all that time as well. *He* doesn't know if he wants the marriage or not, but in the next breath tells me he wants it more than anything. *He* didn't want to do what he could to help me heal. He thinks I am demanding and controlling because it hurts me that he doesn't care about what I need to heal. He is basically living away from home "trying to become a better husband and father" all the while almost completely ignoring me and my needs. Unbelievable.

But you know what? He sounds just like you and everything everyone here is telling you is what you need to hear. If you really want this marriage, listen to them. My guess is that you're wife realizes that you are still selfish and only thinking about yourself and that is easy to see while reading your posts. My husband sounds just like you.

Quit expecting anything from your wife. She's not going to be the least bit interested until you stop making it about yourself. All I hear is you, you, you.

{{{{{{{{{{{Mopey}}}}}}}}}}