I don't know exactly when it started. We have been hanging around with the same couple for about a year. All 4 of us got along really well. I guess some sparks starting flying for her and I never noticed.

Everything was uncovered on March 1st, 08.

For 3 weeks, I tried everything I could to meet her needs, I read his needs her needs, and the love busters, did the exercises, she didn't want to do them.

After 3 weeks, I decided to let her go. I didn't want to manipulate her into staying with me which I knew I could do with the guilt factor from the kids. I chose to support her in whatever decision she made and we decided to separate and I started to sleep in my office. We became very good friends overnight. We talked about everything including potential dates for one another. I found someone online and had plans to meet her the next Saturday when my wife told me she had made a mistake and didn't want us to separate anymore.

I suggested marriage counseling, she declined. She finally accepted for her to talk to a life coach. That is a big step in the right direction for her.


There are also a huge potion of the population living with a 9-5 job that they hate. That would also be average. Does average mean it's the correct answer? I don't think so. I want more out of life than average. I love my children and I consider myself to be an above average father because I work at it and try to improve myself everyday. I love my wife and I consider myself to be an above average husband because I read books and apply what I read to improme myself as a husband. I believe I also do more than 99% of the husbands out there would do for their wives. And I love my career too. Every aspect of my life is great and I still continue to work on it to make it better just because it's possible. Why stay average when you can win the gold. Sure 2-3 times a week is good. It's even above average maybe. But it doesn't explain to me why someone would not want to do something they say they enjoy. I do things for her that is not enjoyable every day because I know it's what she needs, at least that's what she tells me.

Who said I refuse to put any other ENs as SF? I said that SF is important to me and I don't understand why someone would not do something pleasant to please their partner. I do put a lot of effort in all the other needs. In fact, since she won't tell me what she really wants in detail. (I think she's the one with the communication barrier that would normally be seen in men and I'm the one who loves to communicate.) I have chosen to put effort in every EN listed in Harley's program. I am putting effort everywhere I can the best that I can. What else can I do?

I totally agree. That is why I've asked her. I ask her all the time if there is anything else I can do for her to enjoy it more. Her response is usually, if it were any better I think I'd have a heart attack and based on how she physically reacts, I would tend to believe that she is truly satisfied almost every time. Now if she's lying to me and faking it all then I don't even think I'd want to be with her anymore. If she's not able to tell me that it's not satisfying for her then it's her problem.


Every time we make love, I always put her first. She always get her orgasm before I do. I actually love to please her. Pleasing her is probably even more important to me than pleasing myself. The whole idea I have about having sex everyday is so that I can please her every day.


Great post

I definitely agree that what got us in trouble was caused by me not fulfilling her EN's. I tried for many years and got so frustrated from the lack of SF that I slowly and unconsciously disconnected. The more disconnected I became the less I needed SF. My need arrises from me being close to her. The closer I get to her, the more I desire to be intimate. It's a viscious circle.

My wife had a tough upbringing and some of that is causing her to keep everything inside and not able to communicate with me what she really wants. I've been guessing now for 19 years. I read books, I try different approaches, I do everything I possibly can to get through her wall. I've been at this for 19 years. Some of these years I wasn't so successful and went into depression and withdrawal. Things seem to be better now and I'm never going to stop making things better. I will improve myself till the day I die.

Well sorry about that i think it should be something that they both could work on, her bringing hers up and him bringing his down would make the situation better for both IMHO.

SC:

Then you are discussing "Enthusiastic Agreement" using POJA.

My main point was this:

The poster wants it ALL THE TIME, because he doesn't KNOW when he will get it. And he will never get it ALL THE TIME until many other issues are resolved in his marriage. And once he knows he can have it regularly and without artificial barriers, then he will not want it all the time. They both will get comfortable with the frequency of the SF.

But he's a long way from that.

LG

In your first post, you said you felt all the other needs could be met by anyone and that ONLY SF could be met by your spouse. This alone shows that you think of them as completely different. Probably your W doesn't. I know I don't and it would be a huge turn off for me to think that my only purpose was to serve my H's SF needs while being expected to fulfill my needs elsewhere. I know you aren't expecting her to do that, but it is the message that you send when you place less importance on these other ENs, which are probably her top ones.

I think LG is making some very valid points. Meeting the EN's of his wife will likely increase the frequency of SF. Where LG and I differ here is his assumption that the H will moderate and be happy with 2-3 times per week. That is an assumption that does not hold true for many, many people.

MiL:

Great post.

Now we can start getting somewhere.

You have great kids.
A great Job.
Your a terrific Father.
You do more than 99% of other husbands.
Your an excellent lover.

Except your Marriage was a wreck.

Your W was drifted into an EA, and you were ready to date soemone else a couple of weekends ago.

I'm not trying to make you the bad guy here. My list above is what I got from reading your post. You have ALOT of pride.

You may have been doing everything you could to fix your marriage. And NEVER seemed to make any headway.

You tried different methods, and other strategies and they didn't seem to work, so you slipped back into the same old routines.

First, you really do not have a clue what your W's emotional needs are do you? That's not a critical comment, it's just an observation. For MANY years, I thought I was addressing my W's most important EN's. But I wasn't. She didn't know how to describe to me what I missing either. Not until she found this site and revealed it to me. Then alot of things started to make sense.

Your W has to have this type of conversion as well. To really understand and internalize MB behaviors and ideas. This isn't to make us sound like cult or anything, it thinking about the internal dynamics that drive us to do the things we do, and what we expect the other spouse to do for us.

Cleaning up the kitchen may make YOU feel good, but your spouse wanted you to fix the faucet in the bathroom.

That's the EN driver's in a M.

And you have had 19 years of getting it wrong. And she has 19 years of not knowing how to properly communicate it with you. I wish I had been handed HNHN at year two of my M. It would have made all the difference in the world. But, I still would have had to read it, understand it, and implement it. Very hard to do. Until I had toasted my M and my W to a crisp, and we decided to crawl from those ashes to something better.

That's the tough part. Actually doing it.

You can do this. Reread HNHN, and Fall in Love, Stay in Love. Avoid the Lovebusters. (Read the book again, however) Fill out the EN questionaire for her. To give yourself some idea what YOU THINK she thinks is wrong. IF she ever fills out the EN questionaire, and she disagrees with your answers, then she is right, and now you know what you need to work on.

Complete the EN questinaire for yourself. Complete it for yourself with how you think she would answer if she was filling in your blanks. It's an interesting exercise. But NONE of the answers are right. They are just guidelines to help you get to a better place.

LG

I don't think that the intend is for me to make the other EN's as important to ME as they are to her. Just like I don't expect that she'll just out of the blue want SF as much as I do. I do many things for her just for her because these are important to her it's what she wants even if it doesn't mean as much to me. Don't get me wrong, these other EN's are far from being meaningless to me. I'm the one who also suffering from lack of communication from her part, lack of touching, lack of recreational companionship, and more. All these things mean a lot to me. I love talking to her and sharing emotions and dreams. It's all stuff that I enjoy doing with and for her. But SF is special. It's the one thing that should never ever be shared with anyone. All others have their exceptions. I'm not saying you should get all your EN's met outside your marriage but if I enjoy the outdoors and my wife doesn't. We can choose to do something we both like 95%of the time and the other 5% I can go camping with just the kids or with other friends. That is totally ok. But SF, I can't just fill in my needs on my own with alternative partners. That is what I mean by SF being different and special for me. It's something we can only share with one another.

My original post just explains my personal view on how SF is unique in comparison to all the other EN's if you read in the basic principles, you will see that Harley uses the exact same comment as I did about all the other EN's being more open than SF.

I don't need to repost your entire post but I think you got me figured out quite well.

And you are absolutely right. I don't have a clue what her needs are. I've tried everything I could imagine to get them from her including suggesting she did the exercises and read some of the material on this site but she doesn't like to read. She doesn't like to make any effort into changing anything. The guy she fell for is just like I was 15 years ago. He's much younger, immature, no big plans in life, thinks mostly about just having fun without the responsibilities. I matured and grew personally in the last 15 years. I feel like she's still there and now that I've changed, she built this wall between us and found comfort in someone who is just like I was many years ago. This is all just my own imagination at work here and I realize that.

So I will continue then to see if I can get her to read some of this stuff. I will ask her again to fill out the HNHN questionnaire and see where it takes us.

Thanks.

Ah-hah! Interesting...very interesting.

Why do you feel like she's still stuck back then? And are you saying she hasn't matured/grown as you have?

How are you different NOW? How is she so different from you?

So you quit trying to fulfill her emotional needs when you weren't getting enough SF. Then less than a week into a separation you had plans to meet someone else. You are the perfect husband, father, person and yet she looked somewhere else for an EA.

Something isn't right here. Don't know what it is, but something doesn't add up.

Can you tell us what it is about your wife that you love?

Wow, why not just say his emotional needs are not really valid???

For him, there may not be such a thing as too much sex. But for his wife, it appears there is such a thing.

BINGO, if you are starving, you want food all the time. If there is plenty of food in the pantry, it's likely you stop thinking about food.

So while the desire may be there 24x7, once he's being fed regularly, it's entirely possible that he will not have the desire for 2x/day.

So perhaps part of the POJA is an agreement to work together to find a frequency that is mutually acceptable. That may mean going from every 3 days to every other day to start, or a couple of times each weekend, etc.