I know my plan A was too long, and at the expense of being banned from these boards, I think SH's layered exposure hurt. Everytime I exposed something new, it seemed like the A ended, but then I'd find out it started back up again, so I was back to square one.

If I'd exposed to OMW, the kids, her STD, everything all at once, if the A would have continued on I would have gone to plan B a long time ago.

Oh well, live and learn. you'll never hear me promoting the layered exposure method again. I either could have had this A ended for good months ago or been in plan B and living my life with my boys while the A imploded on it's own a good number of months ago.

I know it man. I really never was comfortable with the tack your sit. has been on, and while I most certainly defer to SH as the expert, I think he advised an overly cautious approach. I understand the layered exposure approach and I do agree with it, but the layers in your case were way to far apart.

HOWEVER, I think some of that is because of you, you've been a rock, willing to let the plans work "in thier own time" so to speak. I guess if one is willing to endure, then letting things play out slowly might be seen as preferrable. IMO it seems in many cases to just delay the inevitable. We'll never know in your case, so there's no choice but to move forward from where you are. Recognize the mistakes you made in the past, recognize why you made them, and adjust accordingly.

Again, where you are now, I think its where most of us BH's have been, and it is at this juncture that most situations change.

It seems to me for whatever reason that WW's tend to push to the breaking point before "coming to thier senses". It makes many things about recovery very much more difficult than they would have been otherwise. It sucks all the way around H4U, but you should recognize that this point is the culmination of your long Plan A. Don't needlessly destroy your efforts with meanness. Speak the truth, speak it clearly and unflinchingly, but do not use it as a weapon, if that makes sense.

H4U,



You're not the only one either TYK. I was right there myself in LaLa and our situation. Things can still turn around for you too H4U. Take Tyk's and LaLa's advice. I think you did a fantastic job. This was something that has needed to happen for a long time. Let it play out and keep in Plan A until you can work out the details of Plan B. You must avoid LB's as much as possible now. She is going to be furious and try to bait you into all kinds of arguments. DON'T FALL FOR IT! Speak your truth calmly and walk away. There's a thread in this forum about what to expect after exposure. Find it and read it so you will be prepared for what to expect her to say. Great Job! Hang in there!

W2S

Tyk,

Can you please quit reading my mind. I mean really, could our point of view be any more identical. Even our situations were very similar. It's scary.

H4U,

TYK is spot on. Follow his advice and you'll be just fine.

W2S

Also, I think this is a very real concern: your WW has been constrained by her fear of the kids finding out. Now that they know, your WW, in her twisted wayward realm, will feel that "Ok, I no longer have to hide this". Now, the fact that your DS15 laid it on the line like he regarding his stance toward OM is really excellent. It shows her that just the "truth being out" is not a relief from the pressure of the A. That as long as she persists, there will ALWAYS be misery in that relationship. It is that constant pressure of reality that will crumble the A, as she is forced to shed the "happily ever after" delusions. She's going to try to blame you for that fact that her fantasy can't work. Its not your fault. Don't take the blame, but understand that if she comes out of the fog she will be forced to recognize this on her own, and until then, pointing it out isn't going to help much!

Didn't you say that you have yet to expose to her mother?

I think, somewhere in a near future conversation with your WW, that you need to get in the thought that the relationships she's damaging, they aren't just about the next two years of your DS15's high school. They're about the rest of your lives. DS15's graduation, hell, that's just the "official" beginning of his adult life. He's not going to graduate and suddenly endorse his mother's adultery! Just a seed to plant in her mind somehow.

Sorry W2S! I think I just type faster! :P

Good job! Now you have got to hang in there. Prepare for Plan B. And no more explanations to the alien. Just say that you will do what it takes to keep the family together.

Thanks for the posts guys.

TYK, you're spot on about affecting a LOT of lives. DS19 was crushed that he'd have to share this with his GF. His GF loves WW because WW treats her like an adult and not a kid.

I'm ready for plan B. There is no doubt in my mind. I'm almost looking forward to it. End the drama.

DS15 told WW last night that "if you're seeing OM and I'm required to come visit you, I will, but I will not speak to you while I'm there. And if I'm not required to visit you I won't".

Spoke to DS19 a bit ago. He asked how things went last night and I told him that his mother is pissed at me. He asked "how can she be pissed at you, she's the one that has been lying and cheating. She has no right to be mad at you."

I've been very careful to not bash their mother to them. And I've even said to both boys that "she's still your mother and loves you very much" and she wouldn't like to hear the responses I got from them after I said that.

I just sit here shaking my head at the sheer stupidity of the things she's said to me over the last 7 months (including the last week). OMW and I are the selfish ones. Yep, I guess we're selfish because can't we see that theirs is a special love that makes it ok to destroy two families?

I'm glad I can vent here because I'd probably blow out my belly button if I tried to keep it in at home!

I think the caving may have already begun. WW just sent me this email in response to my note to her this morning.

Hope4Us,

There are too many issues in your letter for me to address at the moment. But for now, I want you to know that I haven't seen OM since last year nor do I have any plans or intentions of seeing him. Whether you want to believe that or not is up to you, but it is the truth. I would like to continue this marriage until DS15 graduates and I will try to repair the damage that's been done to them. If we're at a point at that time that we know it's not working, then we can part and go our separate ways.

I know it's going to be difficult and there are a lot of trust issues involved. There are things we both need to change in order to move on and I hope you will consider this, not so much for me, but for the kids' sake.

WW.


Ok, what do you all think? Sounds to me like I'm being set up again. I'm thinking I need to stand firm with NC, counciling of some sort, complete transparency for starters. If she bites on that maybe I'll give it a chance.

You are getting played. Don't respond and keep NC. You are finally making an impact. She is starting to see what her life would be like if you leave her. No faithful BH fulfilling her EN. No OM there to catch her when she falls. No relationship with DSs. Let her stew. She will come running after a bit.

HFU, ( I like that it sounds like a university) ,


First, I think it is a good thing that you layered things, perhaps no for this long, but a good thing. Let me explain why.

Your sons have gotten to see their father do his best to try and save his marriage and their family although deeply hurt. You have shown them what it means to be married and in love. You could not have done that had you expose all 7,5,3,..months ago. Your DS15 knows what is going on, and it is great that he now knows he can come and talk with you, but it is great that he saw you trying in your marriage as well.

You would have second guessed yourself if you had told them and then your W turned around even for a bit. Now you know the end is near. They know the end is near, they understand the end is near. You KNOW you have done all you could do. YOu did it as gently as you could, and finally you dropped the hammer on her.

THe process you have been through has made a huge difference to you, and it may yet save your marriage. Your W knows you could have exposed to the children much earlier but you did not.

It is done now. Essentially the marriage is over. Your W has responded to your exposure first with the usual blame shifting and now with a more concilatory note. You are wonder: "what do I do now?"

I'll offer my insight for your consideration. She said:



No it is not up to you to believe or not believe the affair is over. You know it is not, she was going to meet him. BUT, the more important point in my opinion is that IF you were going to give her two more years of your life, it is HER RESPONSIBILITY to PROVE TO YOU THAT SHE IS IN NC. Before anything else, she needs to present you a plan where she shows you she is not cheating. You know you cannot trust her, she has shown you that if nothing else. So ask her for her input on this matter.



Why? What good would it do for your son to live in a home where his mother dislikes his father and cheats on him? It would be better for DS15 to be with you and see his mother when he wants and she has time. Living in a family where a spouse is cheating or simply does not want to be there is NOT HEALTHY FOR HIM.

So if she wants to continue this marriage what is the benefit to: your son, you, AND HER??? This needs to be discussed. It must be a win-win-win situation. She is part of this, she must provide input and frankly if it is only until DS15 leaves, your son probably should be part of it as well. My W and I have a friend that did this. They stayed married until their youngest daughter graduated HS. It was not pretty, and the girl was a mess.




If she is not going to try and repair the damage done to the marriage, then she has little hope of repairing the damage done to "them". They are going to lose their family, the common holidays, family history, and whether they do it now or in two years does not change this. No repair can be done, only spinning to protect your W from her choices.

If she wants to continue married to you, I am of the opinion that she needs to commit to working on the marriage and trying to address the issues in it. You do realize that most marriages don't recover from an affair for two years. Pretty tight scheduling if you ask me.


HFU, if you consider this it should be for her. The boys know. Their lives are going to move on and the only question is will they have an intact family to visit? The kids will be better off with you two divorced than with you two together and miserable.

Having said all of that, there is also the possibility that this can work out. Many a good recovery started out, "trying for the kids". Most often the kids were younger. I think the telling indication that you should have some hope is if she is willing to do some work on her own with regards to plans for recovery, showing you NC is in place, and what she wants for herself.

Now from my rather strange point of view one of the MOST telling indicators would be what her plans for you are. What does she want to see changed, and why with regard to how you treat her and love her?

If she really is serious, she will or perhaps already has (I doubt it, but it is possible) have started to pick up the rope on this recovery thing and started to think about plans. She may not have gone very far, and she may need your guidance with regard to the need for a plan and what a plan might entail.

I would say a real heart to heart about the future is really required. It would seem she is not anxious to divorce you.

In my mind your marriage is over. The issue is whether the both of you would like or want a shot at a new one. That perhaps is where this starts, talking about the evaluation process to decide that matter. I just don't see staying married for two more years with all of the pulling away, and self-protecting that will go on as the deadline approaches. I think it would be horrible for your sons as well as for the both of you.

Just thoughts HFU. I hope something I have said is of help.

God Bless,

JL

Hope:

Things are finally starting to move aren't they?

SH was recommending a "Layered exposure" because he gets to speak with you and use his professional knowledge to guide you to possible marital recovery.

Everyone else here, including me, just has what they have read, and what they have experienced.

That said, WW is finally getting the cold shower of reality for her little A.

I love this line from her:

No real issues to address. The TRUTH speaks for her.

And SHE knows this. Deep down, she has done ALL those things and they ALL lay at her feet.

Stating them simply for her drew the line in sand.
She hasn't seen yet from you. Glad you finally did it.

I still recommend Plan A. It works for right now. BE the MAN you can be.

Plan B can come when its needed.

However, I think you need to address this:



You need to state clearly that you do not believe her, and that you know for a fact that last weekend she tried to arrange a meeting. You can state that you thought that she had ended her attempts to contact OM, but she didn't. You were willing to wait, but the second to last straw had been pulled. Her attempt to contact OM last weekend WAS the last straw.

And this line:


Interesting when the waywards start quoting trust to the betrayed. (roll eyes here) Please address this. "I can grow to trust you again. I trusted you for many years. I can trust you for many years to come. I have learned to recognize many of the things that might have created distance between us. I have been working on these and you have seen my better behaviors."

Then I would address this directly:


No, YOU DO NOT. If she wants OUT, she can GO. You know the path back to a happy marriage. She can join you on that path, BUT there is no half in-half out. Any time she doesn't feel like being married, she can leave. There are no bars on any of these windows or doors. You ARE committed to this. Your actions in the past 8 months prove that. You still have time to wait.

You do marriage, and your attorney will do the divorce. And your attorney is a bulldog.

One more thing. IF she wants to "do it for the Kids" That's fine. You can make it for the two of you later. But committing to the M is the direction you want to go. And "for the kids" is a start. Is this in contradiction to the above? No. Her continuing to cheat, all bets are off, and if she really does stop cheating, but never really commits to a plan of recovery, then you deal with that, at that time.

At least she is talking/sending emails to you. That's a change. But I think that the exposure list needs to written up and be ready to contact mother, father, OM employer and some others if she really slides downhill.

LG

I agree with some of what LG is saying, however, I really disagree with "playing along" with the 2 year marriage thing "until DS15 graduates" as a long term tactic.

If I were you I might not bring this up right now though. I would persue the line of conversation about what she thinks needs to be changed within the marriage to make it work (let her assume you mean for two more years). After her response (which will be a bunch of babble most assuredly), I would take that as an opportunity to present the MB plan for a healthy marriage. It would be a good opportunity to get a real conversation going regarding what you are both willing to accept in a marriage.

However, I think you would be doing yourself a disservice to agree to a continuation of a "temporary marriage" to ease your WW's conscience while she plots an exit. Either she agrees to put a real, committed effort into the M, agrees to NC, and to be held accountable to that promise, or there is no reason for you to beat your head against the wall. It will only result in more misery for you and your family.

Your boys know, they have seen what you have gone through, and I agree, you did set a commendable example. Setting and keeping firm boundaries now is also a very good example, imo. They know who is right and who is wrong. Your DS15 has already stated that he would prefer to be with you if he should ever have to make that choice. So realize, your WW is bargaining with wooden nickels. She no longer has any power, because you have stopped playing her game. It is now about what YOU want and need to remain married to her, and as it stands, that is a whole lot more than the nothing she is offering.

She is cracking, a little, but I think she is more trying to feel her way around the issue, not trying to find a way to truly resolve it. You have gone this far, while I think you should persue the conversation with her, I think you should try to listen more than talk, and see where she really is at, what is she willing to actually DO to make you want to stay in this marriage? She's done alot of talking over the last year, its time for her to start backing up her words with actions. In the meantime, proceed with your plans of getting legal advice and prepare as if nothing has changed, because really, it hasn't.

I agree with parts of all of your responses.

I already know I'm going to tell her that SHE is going to have to show me what SHE's going to do to make me feel safe enough to even give her a chance. Because I'm not going to give myself and my kids false hope that things may work out if she's just mailing it in.

I'll let her talk. I'll point out that just because she hasn't 'seen' him since last year means nothing when they still continue to email/phone/IM each other and I'll also point out the fact that she INTENDED to see him just 8 days ago. Just because the scumbag played you and didn't show up means NOTHING.

After I've listened to her, I'm going to tell her what I NEED to even consider giving this a chance.

1) Verifiable NC. NC letter which includes a statement that if there is ever contact we will contact our work HR and report him for harassment. If she contacts him, I will immediately begin the divorce process.
2) PRO MARRIAGE Counciling (preferably MB)
3) Complete Transparency
4) I'm going to strongly suggest she post here. I'll warn her she's going to take a beating if she does, but in the end she will SEE what everyone else already knows. If she agrees, I'm hoping maybe I can put her in touch with a couple of the FWW's here who help so many of us here.

There's a certain power that comes from knowing you're done and really could care less whether the marriage works or not. Where I am, I've already started planning my life without her, and to be honest, it looks pretty darn good. Would I like her to join me? My real wife, yes. Do I need her to join me, not in a million.

Really man, I do not at all agree with LG. I understand what he's saying, I don't think he's wrong, but I don't think it is the best way to go at all.

I think it is time for you to take complete charge of your life. I don't think you should contemplate or even pretend to contemplate accepting anything less than a real, committed effort from your WW.

I think your next statement to her should be "THIS stops now. ALL of it. I will not remain married to someone that does not want to be married to me for one second longer than I have to. I have tried everything I can think of to salvage this marriage, and it is time for you to either get on board, and commit to building a good marriage that makes both of us happy, or it is time for us to get divorced. I will no longer compromise myself and my life for lies and misery. I do still believe it is possible for us to find a way to be happy together, but when I say I want to be happily married, I do not mean for two years, and if that is what you are seeking, then I am simply not interested."

I think something similar to that is where you should start. It is where I was, and it is very good synopsis of my "come to jesus" meeting with my WW. Yes, it is solely based on my experience, and while I respect and see merit to LG's opinions, I think following his advice is going to set you up for failure.

I think it is time for you to take unwavering control of your life and your future. I do not believe accepting 1/2 measures will result in success for you, and it could in fact cause your marriage to fail later rather than sooner.

You posted as I was typing H4U. I think you are in a good frame of mind. I can feel your strength building, and I hope it serves you well.

2) PRO MARRIAGE Counciling (preferably MB)
Not maybe, if you want it don't let yourself get side tracked.
Also I would call WW on her recent plans to meet up with the OM and her affair has still been on going because of contact. Contact is not just meeting up in person but communicating by any manner.

HFU,

Being "done" is a good place to negotiate from. I agree with Tyk, that a "come to Jesus" talk is necessary. I also think that really the ball is in her court. Your marriage is dead and you are ready to walk, she killed it. Now she wants to extend it, OK??? Why? To what purpose? Who wins? And what do they win, if she has her way?

It is her turn to have her say, it is your turn to make decisions based on data and actions. I don't think she fully realizes that FINALLY after all of this time YOU are ready to negotiate. You cannot negotiate unless you were ready to walk.

I know that sounds odd, but until your brain overcomes your feelings, and all BS's have to wait for that to happen, you really cannot negotiate solutions to marriages that are win-win.

I look forward to hearing how your talk with her goes.

Oh! I think at this point your son needs to know what is happening in your mind. NOt in gruesome details but in general details. After all this is about him and your older son as well.

God Bless,

JL

Just had to say, yep, sounds like a university, but could also very easily be Hey FU!

Sorry If I offended.

HFU,

Yup it could be that or someone with a bad cold sneezing.

But, I think I will stick with the HFUniversity myself.

HFU, I do really hope things work out well for you and your family. I do think you have a fine set of sons and I do think you are doing the right thing encouraging them to be accepting of their mother, and not her actions...of late.

Hang in there this will sort itself out.

God Bless,

JL

Well, last night didn't go as well as I'd hoped. WW is still saying she wants to try to work on the marriage, but there's a heavy fog alert in Eastern Ohio. She claimed she sent OM a NC IM yesterday morning but I don't believe it. She claims that whatever I read in her TM's I was confusing with her and OM trying to arrange a meet two weekends ago. I called B.S. on that one.

So, today I sent her a letter but it outlined the things I need her to agree to try and work on our marriage. Here's the list.

1) No contact. No contact letter approved by me. Blocking his email/IM address. Discuss what we can do to ensure no contact. I state if she slips and makes contact but tells me about it I will not be angry. If she makes contact and I find out and she hasn't told me or lied to me about it I will immediately see a lawyer to begin separation proceedings.

2) She gets rid of all Affair baggage. Victoria's Secret wear that she purchased specifically to be with him, pictures, cards, notes etc. Told her this will go a long way towards showing me she's serious about trying to make this work.

3) Either pro-marriage counseling or some books of my choosing on how to recover from an affair.

4) We share with the kids these three things so if she fails to do any one of them they will know why I'm seeking a separation/divorce.

The letter is a lot longer than that. I also told her that I understood there were things I've done in the marriage that made the conditions possible for an affair to occur, but NONE of that justifies the Affair. I talk about radical honesty, working on trust, her lying to me about OM's planned visit a couple weekends ago, etc. But those 4 things are what I require to agree to work on the marriage.

what do you think?