What you relied on before...

Well, that wasn't great phrasing on my part.

When you were in a Plan A-sort of mode-you did a lot for W. You did it for you, her and the marriage. Rely on what you did to know about yourself. The not-doing now is like that...meaning, it may take a lot for you to not do.

You remain loving, generous, committed.

Awareness.

About drawing strength...I've been thinking a lot about our designations of strengths and weaknesses. I'm in my own quandry about them. So I don't know.

How you see your actions determines your life experience. Not how she sees you. Remember, we learn to justify from a very young age...and we do it to different extremes throughout our life. Can't control others' justifying their actions...only be mindful of our own intent, our own choices.

Continually aligning them to our code. Doing and not doing.

I wondered if you were in no contact how you were hearing her complaints...her negativity. Would you consider going more dark? Having an intermediary for communication, someone neutral there for exchange of the kids?

Even hearing her complaints/thoughts meets ENs...just as the financial one stands out more clearly...know the tiny ones. Don't work against it to keep her/make her...see clearly all the ways you do meet ENs, so you can understand them more deeply.

You may then find how she still meets your ENs in these subtle ways, too. Keeps the love bank bobbling...like sneaking in deposits. Not to stop, block or get more...just to know.

We can't choose in the future because we aren't there yet. Stay present. You are choosing to divorce...you're respecting your commitment and her choices. She's chosen not to work on the marriage.

Your choice remains your own. Discover what is in the empty feeling...often, we can feel empty in the new...because of the absence of habit/routines. Explore it some more.

Like listening to the oldies on the radio...and hearing a song you've known for years by heart...and in the chorus, it's nothing like it was before. That would be really disconcerting.

Different.

LA

going4it,

I love your enthusiasm. It's contagious. The thing is, I'm in so much a better(different) place this time than I was then. I've been out and had dinner and drinks with other women (only friends), so I guess you could say I'm dating.

I'm not getting involved with anyone, because I don't want to, and I'm not ready. To me that doesn't mean I'm not taking care of myself and my need for connection, to both males and females.

Some days, I miss her and feel that pain, I share it here. But overall my confidence level is HUGE, in fact I don't believe I've ever been as confident as I feel now. I've been working to understand my own co-dependency issues, and in owning my 'slave' behavior, I can now see how to do better, and I'm not afraid anymore. And, I've learned how to validate her wanting me to be who I was, and yet still maintain my boundary. This is really fun, but not easy.

She's still working to 'make me feel guilty' and boy can I validate that, we both worked to create this master/slave relationship. Cool thing is, now that I understand it, I've decided not to play that game anymore. She's likely to be upset about it for a while, I get that. Doesn't change how I feel about me, my choices, my thoughts and actions.

I love her, always will, she may never choose to look at herself, no one in her family has, maybe she's got no role model. Dunno.

I do know I'm good, with or without someone in my life. I need to spend some time alone, and be good with that. Doesn't mean I'm lonely.

- TTM


LA,

I've got to process your reply. I'll get back to you soon.

La,

Thank you for your thought provoking post. I cherish that about you.

I am, more and more, learning that I can validate myself. It'd be nice if W learned how, but right now it's up to me. I've found it hard in the past to understand and feel totally comfortable with my feelings and then expressing them, and holding strong to them, when they come under attack. I'm getting much better at this.

W tried to use manipulation to get me to pay for a roof on her house. I said repeatedly that I didn't want to do that, and even asked her what she might be willing to give to meet me half way.

Surprising to me, she just backed down completely, and never even asked what my reasons were, or if I would be willing to compromise.

This was new to me. What was really cool is I validated her wanting me to pay for a roof, but held my ground respectfully saying I would not pay for it.

This is a huge victory for me.

I've thought a bit about going 'darker' with her. I don't feel it's necessary for me. As I get stronger, and learn more, I can hear her complaints, and accusations, and not loose my cool.

I like to think of it as someone sharing their perception with me, kind of a gift, the more grounded I am with myself, the easier it is for me to hear perceptions about me, and not react to them. But I've also learned that my first knee-jerk reaction isn't often the best, so now I say things like, I'll get back to you on that. Let me think about that, ect... keeps me safe in my space.

What's in my emptiness is a sense of sadness and loss. But at the same time, a real sense of hope, and love. I feel both things.

Like a Phoenix rising out of the ashes, this pattern and relationship with W, had to die, completely. So a new one can be born. I thought this had happened before, but in truth it was just more of the same when we started dating again. I had made changes, but not found my inner strength. I'm getting it now.

My M to W may be at an end, and for that I'm glad. Now I can focus on something new, different and I'm quite certain much better. Never know, might be with her, in time.

- TTM

TTM,

Glad to hear about the confidence, I am sorry, I misunderstood.
You sounded kind of down at first.

Hey
That would make a great tattoo for ya!

TTM - Good to know. Thank you for continue to share with us.

LA

PS...my grandbaby's name is Phoenix, so I now say, "Like a Phoenix rising from a nap." Would make for a really different tattoo, I think.

Well,

W is angry. I'm not surprised, I won't pay for a new roof on her house, and this is how she acts when she doesn't get what she wants. For most of our relationship, I would do anything to appease her anger, I let it control me, and thank GOD now I'm learning to do better. I was over there last night exchanging kids, and I asked her about adding me to her dental policy, and she said she wouldn't. Then she told me that she intends to file for D 3 months after the separation paperwork is filed. I was surprised, I was expecting that she wanted a year to get her credit in line, but it looks like now she's changed her mind. I'm not sure if she said this just to throw a dart at me, and see how I reacted, or if that's truly what she's thinking. I just reacted with 'good, can't be over soon enough'.

For the first time, I did slip a little and got right in her face, and reminded her that she walked out on me, and that she's the one that decided not to work on things.

I was really angry, and when I got home, I did some anger release work, and felt better.

In reflection, I'm quite certain that she was working to push my buttons, and luckily, I'm learning how to close the access to those buttons.

Keep you all posted,

- TTM

Going darker..

Well, like LA had suggested to me a few posts back, I think now is the time to go ever darker. W is using just about any contact between us as an attempt to 'get the power back' and manipulate me.

She filed her own tax return without discussing it with me, and she didn't claim all the income I gave her all last year, so that she could get a refund she's not due. Very, very poor choice, and I told her now I have to file my own return and show all that income to her, and it might cause a problem for her with the irs.

She's accused me of all kinds of things, and has done some things that I can't see any logic to, other than out of spite.

I've decided I'm going to play that game anymore, and distancing myself so far from her that we have no contact what so ever, is the only way I can see right now to achieve peace in my life.

I was hopeful that we could be civil with each other, and even learn to maintain some kind of friendship, but it seems that she needs to turn me into some kind of villain in order to feel good about her choices.

I don't need to have any contact with her at all, when we exchange the kids, so to the very best of my ability, I'm going totally dark now.

Starting today, I'm going to 'drop off the earth' in terms of her. I'll let you all know how it goes.

- TTM

Respect more, advise less...

Hmmm...am I talking to myself?

By choosing to go darker, you're finding the tendrils of where you still reach to get in the way of her own consequences...that's my take. Great lesson...for we are sneaky habitual folk...

Telling her about her poor IRS choice is the disrespectful part...showing her by doing your taxes and letting the natural consequences roll...well...that's respectful.

I think you really want her to wake up from her wayward mindset in attacking your marriage...and what you said to her may seem very close to bringing reality...is it really?

What was really the code broken? She lied on her taxes...lies and justification. That's getting in your craw...making you less safe, more fearful...and more aware. I applaud your choice to go darker...to get totally out of the way of her choices and focused on your own.

You stay civil, respectful and honest in your dealings with everyone...get an intermediary if you need one to arrange child-related issues.

You know you cannot be turned into a villain...a frog...or a flower. See where you played the game because of a belief you had...kick it around to see if it is the ol' "good guy/bad guy" one...

Thank you for your updates...sharing your journey. Was amazing to me how difficult it was for me to get completely out of the way of my loved ones' consequences...

LA

LA,

Thank you again for your sage advice.

I'm hoping I don't need to get an intermediately person, at least not for now. I'm pretty sure I can be almost totally dark with one.

Thank you for pointing out how I get in the way of her choices. I believe you're right, I was still looking to control her. I had realized this and decided that I would not do anything more than I had already done. I'm going to file my taxes with truth and honesty, and let the chips fall as they may. Good decision for me. New, different and good.

I'm not a flower? Or a good guy/bad guy? Wouldn't it be just easier to let someone else define me?

Letting her sit with the full weight of the choices she's made is something I've had a really hard time doing. Even the LSA agreement 'shores' her up and keeps her from falling flat.

I've decided that I will do that for my kids sake, so that they don't have to move.

My choice to give enough, for their sake.

- TTM

LMAO!! Yes, I hear you about easier for others to define us. Very much.

Thank you for my morning chuckle.

Good to know you recognize your own tentacles of control...the old habitual desire to control outcomes...I often find my own in the words "letting" or "allowing" others.

Great signs I'm caught up in the outcome struggle, not my code.

Whatcha reading now, btw?

LA

LA,

Right now I'm reading MindOS by DR. Paul and 2 books by John Lee, 'Flying Boy', I just finished, and 'Facing the Fire', really great stuff about dealing with my anger and understanding it's effect on me and my body.

Yeah, outcome struggle, that's what was on my mind for sure.

I put up a new sign on my wall at the house... reads...

"Power struggle is the victory of Reaction over Response"

I like that, reminds me that I am and I choose.

What you reading these days?

- TTM

TM ~
Is your wife a high expectations / overachiever? Your posts are so similar to me. I have a friend that has experienced the same things. Things are so good for him now. The similarities are so shockingly similar... Just curious

11532,

Actually she does have high expectations, but only of me, not of herself. She's definitely not an overachiever. She works hard, but plays just as hard. She is really tough on herself, and spends a good deal of time beating herself up over things. She spends a good deal of time beating other people around her too, when their point of view is different than hers.

Do you have a thread here? I'd like to check out your story.

- TTM

Well this weekend brought some surprises. I shared with W that my financial situation had deteriorated to pretty bad point. I'm definately at a low point in my career, my businesses are struggling and cash flow sucks right now.

Oddly enough, she e-mails me back to tell me that since I asked her for something in order to sign the separation agreement, that she went ahead and filed for divorce. What I asked for was a chat, I wanted to listen and understand her anger, what I got for the asking was a divorce filing.

Wow. I can't say as I understand her choice, since a divorce is the very thing that is likely to hurt her the most and she was all but begging me to sign the separation agreement a month ago.

She e-mailed me and told me what she had done, and I responded with a quick, we'll I guess we'll see how the chips fall.

I think this is a childish move to try and gain control and get me to do something without giving anything, even a conversation.

I won't try and control this situation now, I'm just going to sit back and let it play out, just like the tax situation.

I met with our accountant last week, and in a nutshell it looks like she's in big trouble as a result of her choices. Might cost her somewhere around 8,000.

Can't understand the choices.

- TTM

I'm really sorry. I wish she'd just stick by what she wants.

Good luck.

GG,

Of course I don't know what she wants, and in truth, I don't think she knows either. I guess that's a part of why this whole process (and our marriage) has been so confusing and difficult.

It appears at one point she wants to be married, and at another she doesn't. At one time she says she's willing to work on our M, but then doesn't do anything that resembles that.

Hard to understand, and with the lack of communication, virtually impossible.

I'm trying my best to keep sane. Only half succeeding.


- TTM

TTM - I can empathize only too well with the struggle to understand why she does what she does. Here I am over a year later, divorce final for months, and the XW still hasn't ever really offered any good or honest reasons for why she ended the M.

I think that's why all of the advice and statements here about not driving ourselves crazy trying to own the choices of others' makes so much sense. At the end of the day, I suspect that they're not even sure why they do what they do. So for us to "get it" is just an unreasonable task.

It seems to me that the normal state for a lot of people is to run on instinct and gut, and to not spend a lot of time processing the "why" of their decisions.

Perhaps over time, given the opportunity to deal with the consequences of her choices on her own, she'll learn to them a little more carefully.

One lesson I learned from my divorce that no matter how much we, particularly as men, want to know the why of things, we can't in fact always determine the why. Sometimes the other party doesn't even know the why.

I remember shortly after my divorce was final, the XW called me up while she was drunk as a skunk to discuss a banking issue. she was very chatty and I had the feeling that this was an opportunity to plumb her shallows (not depths!) to discover some things about our marriage and subsequent divorce. I learned quite a few things, but when it came to the question of why, she couldn't answer the question for me or her.

I'll generalize here, but as men we are goal and solutions oriented, rational, reasonable, and logical. Women are none of these. They emote and then will later backward rationalize their behavior by equating their actions/reactions to their emotional state at the time. To us, this m illogical, but to them, it is a natural process. They have to devote the effort to backward rationalize. If they don't, from avoidance or other reasons, they why is their emotional state at the time, not a logical state. Hence we cannot always know the why and they may not know it themselves.

We as men want to analyze successful and unsuccessful systems in our life. Sometimes we expend too much time and energy in this analysis when in reality we can never know the answer and instead should just let it go and move on. The past is dead.

Thanks guys,

It's helpful for me to get your perspectives as I learn to fully let go of my marriage and W.

I'm guessing I'll be served in the coming few days.

I'll keep you all posted.

- TTM

TTM - No sugar coating it... Getting served sucks. At least for me it did. I knew it was coming. The process server even called ahead and set it up with me so that we could meet down in the lobby of my building. There's just something about that action - it suggested a certain degree of finality.