Yes, you do have a very valid point here- but then the character defect is what would lend to a person's addiction/obsession/ frequent use of Porn, and flagrant disregard for one's spouse and their feelings as well, and their choice- albeit a subconcious one or premeditated one- to lie and be deceitful to their spouse am I right?

That's right. Think of it as akin to being married to a drunk. For whatever reason, this is a person who cannot use alcohol in a non-destructive way. It's that reason that is at issue. What makes someone drink to excess? Why can't they deal with their issues in another way? What makes someone able to use alcohol responsibly, and others risk family, freedom, career, and their own life? A defect of character.

From this, two things naturally happen:
1) If you are married to a drunk, you want them to stop drinking
2) If you are divorced from a drunk, you don't want your next spouse to drink at all

No doubt drying out cures a lot of evils. The problem is that the issues that resulted in alcoholism still must be dealt with. I believe that ALL successful addiction treatment programs use some form of this.

-Goodwrench

You fail to understand the destructive nature of pornography. Perhaps you are fortunate in that you haven't viewed much of it and have escaped it's numbing effect.

Too you have only considered the effect on the viewer without regard to its impact on those with whom he relates.

For example, she said it's destructive to intimacy. You are in no position to disagree. His wife, knowing he views pornography with some regularity, is disallowed to feel that she and she alone is the sole object of his deep affection and appreciation. Regardless of its effect on him, the negative result felt by his wife is caused by pornography. It isn't much of a stretch to see how this dominoes with putting distance between them; with causing a cloud of distrust to hover overhead;with obstructing the attainment of the best possible closeness.

Ideally, as God intended for our best happiness, we are not to fornicate. And when we marry we are to do so to the complete exclusion of all others. If we obeyed and followed the design, we would have the optimum chance of reachng the highest possible level of intimacy a man and woman can attain in this present world.

But we do fornicate and we do view motion pictures of others fornicating and so undermine our best chances for this near perfect intimacy.

You don't have to believe that pornography is a prominant cause of these destructive effects. It doesn't care what you believe or don't believe to do what it does.

Another scenerio: does it cause extra-marital entanglements. All it has to do is create dissatisfaction and stir curosity and enflame lust. Then should an opportunity present itself--an opportunity might be an attractive co-worker who pays particular attention to him during a time of unusual stress at home--the possiblity of falling is strongly enhanced by having been exposed to pornography.

I viewed far too much of the vile stuff in my lifetime. I would avoid it like the plague had I the opportunity to go back in time. A man knows he should avoid it, especially a married man, and he cannot go home and say to his wife, " Hey, honey guess what I saw today!" He is -and should be -ashamed. It has no redeeming value whatsoever.


This I will posit for you personally Goodwrench. I notice you have two daughters if I read your signature correctly. Of the young men they date and associate with would you prefer they fill their minds with the adventures of the Hardy Boys and subscribe to a fishing journal or spend their spare time watching pornographic videos and reading Hustler magazines?


And for what it's worth, to defend pornography in any way, I regard as a defect of character in and of itself.

For example, she said it's destructive to intimacy. You are in no position to disagree. His wife, knowing he views pornography with some regularity, is disallowed to feel that she and she alone is the sole object of his deep affection and appreciation. Regardless of its effect on him, the negative result felt by his wife is caused by pornography. It isn't much of a stretch to see how this dominoes with putting distance between them; with causing a cloud of distrust to hover overhead;with obstructing the attainment of the best possible closeness.

***********************************

I have been discussing porn w/ people for several years now and I think you make a very interesting point that isn't discussed much.

I have heard many wives/gfs say they "accept' porn as part of life and realize that their bfs or H's will always 'use' it and t knowing THAT keeps them guarded and sexually inhibited.
They do not feel safe enough to be sexually vulnerable or uninhibited w/ their own husbands......most of these women have shut down sexually when it comes to H....yet, several of them have had affairs where they let loose.
I sometimes think that what many men get from porn (the thrill of being desired, lusted) most women can only get from interacting w/ a live person.

Most of these couples manage to get along OK but from what I see it is destructive to the intimacy in the relationship.


And..
I know many wives who 'accept' their H's porn as part of life....even indulge in it themselves sometimes....insist that it is no big deal.
And in MOST of these marriages (not all) I see there is a lack of intimacy that I don't think either spouse is quite aware of.
There is an attitude of..."He does his thing and I do mine...what the other doesn't know won't hurt them."

In my own marriage....I was MUCH more sexually open and uninhibited when I felt my H was putting me first in our relationship and not seeking sexual stimulation outside the relationship. (not saying that he won't notice other women.... just not seek them out to indulge in sexual fantasy)
I felt safer and therefore much more comfortable being sexually uninhibited with him.

I appreciate your sharing the above. It both undergirds and validates the heart of my argument. You have no idea how valuable your contribution is to me. Thank you.

You may have something there.


I don't doubt these thing are happening in her marriage. My point is that they are caused by her H. Whatever his issues are, they will still be there if he stops using, or if it did not exist.



You write of porn as a sentient entity. I just cannot see that.


Really? I always thought that extra-marital entanglements were caused by married people becoming entangled. To me, blaming porn is like blaming the OP. It's the wayward who causes the pain.


Are you sure about this? Do you think that there are not men who CAN go home and say to their wives, "Guess what I say today?"



Well I have no control over whom DD18 dates. If I did, she would not be dating the bozo she is now. If porn were his only vice, and DD was ok with it, who am I to object? As for DD13, she doesn't date, though I suspect it will come soon. When it does, I have no control over the boys' reading material, and if it were porn, I doubt they would tell me. When I was a teenager, porn was not as readily available as it is now. But guess what? Even without porn, my hormones and lust were raging at incredible rates. As a normal teenage boy, I thought about sex all the time, even without porn. Being young and immature, I did not have the proper attitude toward the female gender, even without porn. What made me capable of a proper romantic and sexual relationship was time, experience, and personal growth, not the elimination of porn.


You are entitled to your opinion. I will say that my point is not particularly to defend porn. If eliminating it from your life is what it takes to make you happy, more power to you. It is just MY opinion that porn is a symptom, not the cause.

Peace

Sounds to me like your H would have to be an idiot to indulge. Why do you think he would anyway, given what was at stake?

Sounds to me like your H would have to be an idiot to indulge. Why do you think he would anyway, given what was at stake?
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immaturity.
lack of values. fear of intimacy. male entitlement. peer pressure.
He had developed the "habit" long before he met me and couldn't resist having his cake and eating it too.

Being young and immature, I did not have the proper attitude toward the female gender, even without porn. What made me capable of a proper romantic and sexual relationship was time, experience, and personal growth, not the elimination of porn.
*************************************

can you see how a young man who looks to porn to educate himself can get the wrong message bout sex and relationships?

Sorry for intruding, the following logic just struck me:


I'm not the one that wrote that, but it seems to me that in this case you are both on the same page. I took the statement "[Pornography] doesn't care..." to be specifically pointing out that porn is NOT a sentient entity.

Your response to this part misses the mark entirely. It is the presence of pornography which dimishishes her ability to have the intimacy she desires.

Therefore, your point is pointless...

Correct. And it is no respecter of persons.

This is patently false. Internet pornography may not have been available but there was a plethora of other sources,evidently, unbeknownst to you.

This question can best be answered by him alone don't you think?

No doubt there are. But again with what was being considered and discussed this is irrelevant. You seem to have difficultly maintaining a sharp focus on the core of what is being discussed.

So then your answer is it wouldn't matter in the least what kind of influences bore upon the young men courting your daughters.

ICH:

I am done with you. You follow me around the board, putting words in my mouth, and attacking me personally. How this helps anything is beyond me.

I tried to learn from what you have to say, but it seems that all you are interested in is getting personal. I have no desire to make it personal with you.

I will not respond to your posts. If you respond to mine, I will not read them.

Peace be with you.

Whom is following Whom--questionable.

Putting words in your mouth...even if I tried, there isn't room with all the words of your own in there.



You're breaking my heart.


Yes you will.

Mr. Goodwrench,

I hope you continue reading and responding to this thread. You were right on the money in a couple of your responses to me and although I am anti-porn in any form at the moment, it is always interesting to read another point of view.

Thanks. One thing that gets lost in the low signal/noise ratio is that I respect the POV of people who don't want anything to do with it. In a case where a spouse is feeling disrespected by it, I am 100% in favor of a porn-free marriage. The main point I have been trying to make is that when someone is viewing it, and the spouse is offended by it, there are clearly two conflicting points of view on it.

That being said, if you want your spouse to stop, you need to understand his/her POV.

If it is so offensive that one simply cannot forgive (like a PA) , then nothing I write will be of any use. If so, I say ignore it.

If, on the other hand, one wants to save the marriage, and have it porn-free, understanding the POV of the offending spouse is the first step in a POJA. I honestly believe this to be a valid MB principle.

It seems to me that people who take the approach of I find it offensive, therefore you must stop, and there will be no discussion are rarely successful.

Also, I have new respect for the POV of porn = infidelity. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. It seems to me then, that if you view porn as infidelity, why not apply the MB principles for surviving an affair? Start with Plan A, which is far removed from AO and DJ.