I see what you're saying, but generally speaking I'd rather mess up my own life than to have someone else, who is beyond my control, ruin it for me.

At the end of the day, when both WS and BS's lives are shattered, at least the WS got to have some fun.

Not just a little fun, either. A whole helluva lot of fun during. I wouldn't believe a single one of them that said otherwise. Before d-day and its aftermath, I'd bet that most WS's, if they were to answer honestly, would say that it was one of the most fun, thrilling experiences of their lives.

BS's get most of the heartbreak and none of the fun...plus we are supposed to do at least 50% of the work to get our old life back, because we weren't "attentive" enough, or whatever.

Great.

Krazy do you buy into the fact that they are addicts? Do you know what it's like to be an addict. I do and I can tell you IT'S NOT FUN.

You can face yourself in the mirror. You can face G-d.

WW are nothing but self destructive people who are lying to themselves if they said they had the time of their life. Happiness and time of their life can't be built on someone's unhappiness and betrayal.

I'm pretty gullible and I'll admit they can make a good case for themselves, but I DON'T BUY IT....

Krazy,

Ah, yes, I definitely hear you.

No matter how much pain the WS must endure once they realize how much of an [censored] they were, they DID get to go out and have fun, get some nasty, and still have home to come to.

I struggled with being his second choice, after the affair, a consolation prize, thanks for playing.

It's different for me now, as I am heading toward divorce. I tried my little tail off, wrung my heart dry. I am angry about that, and will have to work on my own to resolve it. It woulda been nice to hear, from my FORMERWS, that he totally farged up, and that I was the cat's meow. It wasn't in the cards, but I played my hand as best *I* could. Maybe it is a prideful thing, but I didn't want my marriage to go down without ME giving it all I could. And now, I'm done. I figured, if I gave it all I could there could be two results; a wonderful, fulfilling marriage, or a marriage beat like a dead horse. It was the latter.

No, I do not believe they are addicts. Not at all, and I've always thought that was completely ridiculous. It's just shy of claiming "the Devil made me do it".

When they're crawling all over each other, getting all sweaty and worked up, having orgasms....that is fun. What happens 10 seconds or two years after does not diminish that. It was fun, period.

Saying the sex wasn't fun is as ridiculous as a BS, 5 years down the road and fully recovered, claiming that d-day "didn't hurt that bad".

Right in the middle of the big O, it was a blast. Guaranteed.

I don't agree with you about THE FUN part...

At WHAT PRICE?

I think my H lost a PART OF HIMSELF..a PART OF HIS SOUL...like selling your SOUL to the DEVIL...

I can't even describe to you what I see in his EYES when HE GOES TO THE PLACE of RECALLING WHAT HE DID...

He came back a BROKEN MAN..and he is far from FULLY FIXED...

I wouldn't trade places with HIM for a MILLION DOLLARS..

He says that he WAS at the GATES of HELL...

That's what I mean about POSITIVITY..what Queenie is saying...

I FOCUS ON MYSELF..MOVING FORWARD...

If I focus on my H, I'm just whining and complaining..I can't do anything to CHANGE HIM..He's had to do his OWN WORK..and is still doing his own SOUL SEARCHING and HEALING...

I FOCUS on MYSELF and MY PLAN of RECOVERY for MYSELF...

I encourage that for others..'cause that how you will gain hold of your PERSONAL POWER...and feel LESS ANGRY and BITTER...

The trouble with trouble is that it starts off looking like fun

Well i would have to agree with BOTH Krazy and Mimi.

I do not believe in the addict theory or any of the other stuff. I believe my H was just being selfish and thinking ONLY of himself for whatever the reasons when he had his affair.

But i also think that it was NOT fun to him he also was a broken man when he came back to me and is very remorseful to this day. I too can see the guilt in his eyes and he tries so hard.

The "things" i post on this board are MY issue to deal with not HIS. He obviously is part of the equation but i just think that i may be one of those BS that no matter what he does i can not get over the betrayal ITSELF. This is very sad to me because i love my husband very much. Maybe sometimes love IS just not enough.

At what price? My sanity, that's what price. If I had tremendous healing capacity and was completely happy again, she'd have few problems. Most of our issues now are rooted in the fact that I can't "get over it", even after nearly 2 years. Most of the WS's I've spent time around only really have problems when the BS has problems...other than that, they are relatively OK.

Since d-day, I've:

Contemplated homocide
Contemplated double homicide
Contemplated suicide
Contemplated double homicide followed by a suicide
Cry, or wish I could cry, every single day without a single exception in nearly 22 months. I still cry myself to sleep 4-5 days per week.
Have recurring nightmares that wake me up in tears 2-3 times per week.
My brain funtion is clearly impaired (PTSD?).
I can barely motivate myself to do my job, even though I am now the sole breadwinner.
I've decided that I really don't like this place or my fellow man very much. I'm glad it's temporary.

Most of all, I've learned that nobody can be trusted, and most people are crap. The one person you hold most dear in all the world can grind you up and flush you down the toilet like you are nothing, then leave you to pick up the pieces like Jackie O after JFK was shot. When it comes right down to it, we are all completely alone. Nobody can be 100% depended on, and anyone can stab you in the back at any time.

So, yeah...I'd trade ANYTHING to be a guilt-ridden WS who at least got to have some fun (they all did) before the ride was over.

As opposed to being a complete mess of a human being because of what someone else did to me.

Yeah, I can see the guilt, too.

I'm sure that right the moment of release with OM, she was thinking, "Man, this sucks!"

wadeallie,

Lest I forget, since it's your thread – you wrote:

“My H claims he felt frustrated by lack of sex and began having sex with women he met at an online site. OW#3 became a yearlong PA…”

I wonder if your H is a sex addict.

Come on, OW #3?

There is more going on here than garden variety adultery. And I'll bet a donut you don't know the half of it.

He may have bottomless ENs no one person could ever hope to meet, no how.

MB methods do not work, according to Dr H, if addictions are present. Nor do they work if you have to spend the rest of your life afraid of his ENs.

I recommend you call the MB coaching center and sort this out. A link to the number is in the top banner.

With prayers,

I sure hope I'm not working this hard to get my old life back. Our "old lives" were as much a fantasy as our WS's A's.

FWIW, while some BS's/WS's make the mistake of "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" (i.e. If unmet needs before an A, then an A is caused by unmeet needs), I don't think that is the intent.

I don't see what is so hard about separating the decision to have or not have an A and the factors that influenced whether an A was chosen or not. I also don't see what is so difficult about understanding that unmet needs do not cause a person to have an A, but shift the probabilities on what she will choose.

When I say old lives were a fantasy, one of the parts of that fantasy is that we believe our spouse is not making choices about their committment to the M on a regular basis. They are.

On any given day, our spouses are have some probability of staying with us, some probability of leaving us, and some probability of cheating on us. For simplicity, lets say each of those is a 33.3% probability. When we don't meet emotional needs, the probability of them cheating on us goes up, the probability of them divorcing us goes up and the probability of them staying with us goes down. Say 45% divorce, 45% chance of cheating, 10% chance of staying with us. What she chooses among that list is up to her. But I certainly can influence the probabilities.

To be clear, influencing the probabilities is not causal. If I do A, and there is a 99.9% chance that B will happen, that remaining 0.1% means that A does not cause B.

Finally, a BS may have done nothing to influences the probabilities, or they may have done everything to decrease the probability that an A will happen. It still doesn't mean that it can't happen. Which means, the spouse is not the only thing that influences those probabilites. Be of bad character, have emotional problems, unresolved childhood issues, hang out in bars without your spouse, spend time apart, alcohol or drug addiction, etc, etc. can all change the probabilities.

So when MB says protect your weaknesses, or failed to meet EN's etc, its an effort to change these probabilities.

The real kicker to me on this is to consider that at times, if our WS's didn't "love" us, the probability of them choosing an A would have been less. They more likely would have just gotten a divorce.

As usual, though, I have a weird way of looking at things.

Mimi,

You are still one of the coolest people around here, IMO. I salute you, and I think your H is one of the most lucky undeserving adulterous dudes ever lived.

But, I have to say, we have discussed over-the-top EN meeting before. You played a mean game of Russian roulette back then. I am pleased you survived.

Me, I could not play it. It would have been wrong and unfair to me, myself. I could not be living with myself now if I had. To me, no M is worth what you risked.

Just so you know.

I admire you bunches, and I completely agree with the gist of your last post on this thread.

My recovery begins with me.

I was always meeting my wife’s ENs very well. I was a great H. No LBs, she came first in everything, I almost worshiped the ground she walked on.

If anything, she conditioned me to be a wimp by her LBs and then felt I wasn’t man enough for her. She did not care about me, when it came right down to it, and never had.

So I did what you write:

“I FOCUS ON MYSELF..MOVING FORWARD...

If I focus on my H, I'm just whining and complaining. I can't do anything to CHANGE HIM. He’s had to do his OWN WORK and is still doing his own SOUL SEARCHING and HEALING...

I FOCUS on MYSELF and MY PLAN of RECOVERY for MYSELF...

I encourage that for others 'cause that how you will gain hold of your PERSONAL POWER...and feel LESS ANGRY and BITTER...”

I am indeed less angry and bitter. I don’t feel angry and bitter at all. I have a good life and DS is protected.

But, I can still get pissed about it if I let myself…

She will have to fix herself. I can't fix her for her. So I live my life to the fullest (and ethically). The M is what it is and I am fine until such time as I am ready to renegotiate my marriage promisses to her.


With prayers,

Mimi - are you yelling at me? If so, why? All I was doing was "defending you" from the post I responded to, that you have the "right" perspective.

"I've decided that I really don't like this place or my fellow man very much. I'm glad it's temporary."

It's not a temporary feeling, although at least life is, Krazy.

So, in the meantime, be better than human. It helps.

with prayers,

Bob_Pure has a thread in recovery about infidelity being a perpetual lovebuster which is tangentially related to this topic.

BSs get to choose whether they want to remain in the marriage or not. Many choose not to. For those that choose to remain, MB concepts are a pretty good tool for recovery. Doesn't sound like you agree with much of the MB plan for recovery Krazy. That's ok, but it does beg the question: how is your plan working out for you? Doesn't sound like things are all that great.

I get the idea that WS had the affair and all the "fun" that comes with it and they OWE the BS whatever it takes to earn forgiveness. Makes perfect sense. Except for the fact that it just doesn't work that way, at least not often enough for it to be considered an advisable PLAN for recovery.

If nothing else, and A is a statement by the WS that they are willing to risk being DONE with the M. They have, by thier actions, shown as much, right? They have issued grounds for divorce, plain and simple. It wasn't a warning shot either, was it? A BS that wants to remain married would be foolish to expect to return the M to the pre-A state wherein the WS was certainly not happy, or didn't enforce boundaries, or have needs met, or meet needs, or whatever you want to say about whatever caused the A or allowed it to happen.

Fact is, recovery takes two, because you are attempting to recover the marriage. So you are by definition attempting to recover a union between two people. Right? In a perfect, fair world, the WS would do whatever they could singlehandedly to restore the BS to wholeness. Except, it is NOT POSSIBLE for them to do so singlehandedly, is it? As you say, NOTHING justifies the A. Nothing ever will. By the same token, NOTHING will ever make the wrong right. It just isn't going to happen.

So what can you do as a BS? You can divorce. Easy enough, case closed. Or you can try to work it out and remain married. The decision to remain married means that you are deciding to once again share your life with the WS. NOT with the intention of holding them as a subordinate being for life due to thier wrong actions, but as a partner in marriage. Which means BOTH partners have things to learn about how to build a happy marriage. For the BS to assume that only the WS has to change is pure folly imo. Because as they've already shown, they're perfectly capable of finding thier happiness elsewhere, its the BS that has the problem with that solution.

You see Tyk what you posted is all so true and for me anyway the betrayal is, as Bob_Pure questioned, a perpetual LB.

Tyk,

I do disagree with some of the MB principals as they relate to my situation. I think it's great that so many have been helped by them, but I can't help but have doubts. I think they ask far too much of the BS, and not enough of the WS. Of course, I'm a little biased.

I understand that it takes two to mend a broken marriage, but what if the BS honestly thought the marriage was not only OK, but better than it had ever been, thanks to many months of conscious effort to become a better husband and father? My FWW even said so. Things appeared to be so good, in fact, that we agreed to have a second child, which was conceived awhile later. She was happy. I was happy. It was not phony. It was not a fantasy. We were a happy couple...it just so happened that she was still hooking up with her f_ckbuddy every 2 or 3 months, just for the fun of it.

I was connected to her, even if she wasn't to me. We were happy. She says she was to this day. I loved her dearly. We were expecting a baby.

Then I walk into my living room and see them naked.

Now, who broke the marriage? Was it "us"? Am I to blame for believing she was happy when she decided she wanted a second baby with me? It was her idea initially, after all.

Is my WS some special kind of monster for looking me right in the eye and saying that she loves me and would love to have another baby with me, knowing she's hooking up with OM soon? What about the fact that she was 6 weeks pregnant when I caught her? Is that some extra level of evil that is nearly unheard of?

I reject the idea that the marriage was broken by both of us, therefore it must be fixed by both of us. She broke it, and she broke it all by herself.

I'll help, but if she can break it by herself, she can do the lion's share of the fixing.

I'm sorry to have hijacked this thread. I'll drop it now.

Well said Tyk!

“So what can you do as a BS? You can divorce. Easy enough, case closed.”

Oh, hardly.

D destroys innocent children. D creates poverty and dysfunction. D ruins lives and nations. Even after adultery, D is an unethical reneging on promises once made in earnest to many people not just the spouse..

Not that easy at all, Tyk. The covenant of marriage much not mean much to those who believe this.


“Or you can try to work it out and remain married. The decision to remain married means that you are deciding to once again share your life with the WS.”

Nope, this is not true either. Already shared my life with her and was used for it. Better be completely different this time, starting with me and my expectations. FWW can come along or not. But from now on I count too.

Loving detachment. It is in the end the best course of action. She is responsible for her herself and always should have been. Has nothing to do with marriage and everything to do with ethics, morals and knowing oneself.

Did you know that arraigned marriage account for something like 30 % of M’s in this country among immigrants? Yet they have less than 10% D rate compared to, what, greater than 50% among born and bread Americans? Seems to me emotional love is not all it’s knocked up to be, does it. Who in their right minds (not talking about adulterers here) relies on ENs and emotional love? Ugh.

Solemn promises count no matter what one feels, no matter what WS has done or not done.

A normal non-abusive BS must make the best of a very bad situation. A situation they had absolutely no control over and could not have prevented - ENs and love included. So the BS gets to decide what they can live with IMO and what they will do about it, including staying but at arms length for as long as they want. Adultery is a blank check, Tyk. That’s just simple reality - easy and simple.


“NOT with the intention of holding them as a subordinate being for life due to their wrong actions, but as a partner in marriage.”

Exactly. What I just said. WS should be on their own in fixing what they ruined.


“Which means BOTH partners have things to learn about how to build a happy marriage.”

Right again. My happy M is to stay at arms length until DS is settled in college.


“For the BS to assume that only the WS has to change is pure folly imo. Because as they've already shown, they're perfectly capable of finding their happiness elsewhere, its the BS that has the problem with that solution.”

Not folly. Self-perseveration. Enlightened self interest. But you are right for the wrong reasons. As I wrote in an earlier post, I was a dang good H. And she was always a lousy spouse. So I changed. I will no longer put up with it. And I no longer have a problem with her solution. MB is a not just about happy marriages. It is also about happy lives in general. FWW can do what she wants. I just get to know about it so I can make informed ethical choices for myself from now on.

With prayers,

Aphelion and Tyk,

The members of this board are fortunate to have the two of you around. Tremendous posts, both of you.